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Texas Southern Considering Southland?
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Cyniclone Online
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Post: #21
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 04:07 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 03:44 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Two options for HBCUs come to mind:

1. After the schools that want to remain in D1 find safe harbor, the SWAC and MEAC move to D2, possibly reorganizing with the CIAA and SIAC to create three or four HBCU conferences.

2. The HBCU conferences leave the NCAA and create their own athletic association inclusive of all HBCUs (and non-HBCUs should they want to participate). NBC is paying out a decent bit for the Celebration Bowl; they or another network might be willing to pony up for an HBCU football or basketball playoff. There's only (as far as I can count) 50 HBCUs that offer athletics, and some of them like Hampton and Tennessee State probably wouldn't give up D1 for this, so it probably wouldn't work unless some non-HBCUs joined up. But it's a thought.

EDIT TO ADD: 50 is the approximate number of football-playing HBCUs, at least for 2019. There's non-football HBCUs like Coppin State, Maryland-Eastern Shore and Claflin. Still not sure that the numbers work, but more than I had thought at first.

There are 53 HBCUs in the NCAA (24 in D1, 28 in D2, 1 in D3). NAIA has about 20 HBCUs.

And I think a few that are NCCAA, USCAA or otherwise not affiliated with an athletic association (Virginia University of Lynchburg comes to mind). A HBCU governing body would in theory be open to any of those schools, probably divided into two divisions to keep larger, better-funded athletic departments from swamping minuscule schools. I say this knowing that between logistics, tradition and hesitance about leaving the NCAA fold and walking away from March Madness, this probably won't ever happen.
06-11-2019 04:29 PM
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DoubleRSU Online
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RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-10-2019 11:50 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 11:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 09:14 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 07:36 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Southland has way too many schools. Texas Southern beat 3 P5’s last year. Just stick with the SWAC where there’s less teams to go through, higher shares, and more rivals.

Yeah, Southland is its own mess. Aren’t SFA, SHSU, and Lamar itching to get out?

Rock and a hard place if there ever was.

The WAC would be their only option. From a cost standpoint, better to stay in the SLC. Texas Southern would be stupid to join the bloated SLC.
Or they could stay in the SWAC and slum it with a bunch of bottom-feeders like Miss Valley State and Prairie View. As great as the HBCU sports tradition is, the overall quality of athletics is hot garbage and the SWAC and MEAC compete for the bottom conference in every major and secondary sport out there. The SLC would be a huge step forward for them.

Yeah the Southland is the epitome of great athletic programs. There’s just as many bottom-feeders there. Houston Baptist, New Orleans, Northwestern St, just to name a few. TSU joining the WAC would be way better IMO
06-11-2019 06:37 PM
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Post: #23
Texas Southern Considering Southland?
The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


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06-11-2019 06:37 PM
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Cyniclone Online
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Post: #24
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


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Nobody's doing that now. The HBCUs all have, to varying degrees, non-black students in their populations.
06-11-2019 06:46 PM
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DoubleRSU Online
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RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


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Nobody is forced to attend any college. If whites aren’t attending HBCU’s, it’s not because they’re being discriminated against, they just don’t want to go there. Go look at any HBCUs baseball team, blacks are the minority there. Many black students choose to go to HBCUs, they’re not required to.
06-11-2019 08:02 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 04:29 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 04:07 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 03:44 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Two options for HBCUs come to mind:

1. After the schools that want to remain in D1 find safe harbor, the SWAC and MEAC move to D2, possibly reorganizing with the CIAA and SIAC to create three or four HBCU conferences.

2. The HBCU conferences leave the NCAA and create their own athletic association inclusive of all HBCUs (and non-HBCUs should they want to participate). NBC is paying out a decent bit for the Celebration Bowl; they or another network might be willing to pony up for an HBCU football or basketball playoff. There's only (as far as I can count) 50 HBCUs that offer athletics, and some of them like Hampton and Tennessee State probably wouldn't give up D1 for this, so it probably wouldn't work unless some non-HBCUs joined up. But it's a thought.

EDIT TO ADD: 50 is the approximate number of football-playing HBCUs, at least for 2019. There's non-football HBCUs like Coppin State, Maryland-Eastern Shore and Claflin. Still not sure that the numbers work, but more than I had thought at first.

There are 53 HBCUs in the NCAA (24 in D1, 28 in D2, 1 in D3). NAIA has about 20 HBCUs.

And I think a few that are NCCAA, USCAA or otherwise not affiliated with an athletic association (Virginia University of Lynchburg comes to mind). A HBCU governing body would in theory be open to any of those schools, probably divided into two divisions to keep larger, better-funded athletic departments from swamping minuscule schools. I say this knowing that between logistics, tradition and hesitance about leaving the NCAA fold and walking away from March Madness, this probably won't ever happen.


Virginia University of Lynchberg is in the NCCAA.They got their accreditation back. Hiram Scott and Morris Brown still have not got their's back. You do have several in NJCAA like Philander Smith, Arkansas Baptist and Shorter-Little Rock.
06-11-2019 09:23 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 09:23 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 04:29 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 04:07 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 03:44 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Two options for HBCUs come to mind:

1. After the schools that want to remain in D1 find safe harbor, the SWAC and MEAC move to D2, possibly reorganizing with the CIAA and SIAC to create three or four HBCU conferences.

2. The HBCU conferences leave the NCAA and create their own athletic association inclusive of all HBCUs (and non-HBCUs should they want to participate). NBC is paying out a decent bit for the Celebration Bowl; they or another network might be willing to pony up for an HBCU football or basketball playoff. There's only (as far as I can count) 50 HBCUs that offer athletics, and some of them like Hampton and Tennessee State probably wouldn't give up D1 for this, so it probably wouldn't work unless some non-HBCUs joined up. But it's a thought.

EDIT TO ADD: 50 is the approximate number of football-playing HBCUs, at least for 2019. There's non-football HBCUs like Coppin State, Maryland-Eastern Shore and Claflin. Still not sure that the numbers work, but more than I had thought at first.

There are 53 HBCUs in the NCAA (24 in D1, 28 in D2, 1 in D3). NAIA has about 20 HBCUs.

And I think a few that are NCCAA, USCAA or otherwise not affiliated with an athletic association (Virginia University of Lynchburg comes to mind). A HBCU governing body would in theory be open to any of those schools, probably divided into two divisions to keep larger, better-funded athletic departments from swamping minuscule schools. I say this knowing that between logistics, tradition and hesitance about leaving the NCAA fold and walking away from March Madness, this probably won't ever happen.


Virginia University of Lynchberg is in the NCCAA.They got their accreditation back. Hiram Scott and Morris Brown still have not got their's back. You do have several in NJCAA like Philander Smith, Arkansas Baptist and Shorter-Little Rock.

Shorter College is in North Little Rock (not Little Rock) and does not appear to have athletics anymore, Philander Smith College is a 4-year school in the NAIA (not NJCAA), Arkansas Baptist College does compete in the NJCAA although it is a 4-year school.
06-11-2019 10:04 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 01:46 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Sports is a way that many schools market themselves to promote enrollment of tuition paying students. I looked at TSU's website and saw that in Fall 2005 that had 11,903 students. In Fall of 2018 they had 9,099 (a decline of 2804 or 24%).

Would a move to the Southland help TSU recruit more tuition paying students?
Does being in the SWAC affect TSU's enrollment positively or negatively?

As an example of "sports as marketing", I followed TSU during the CIT and enjoyed their play. So now I have a positive association to TSU in my mind. I lived in central Texas for 15 years and never thought of TSU once. But if they would have played in the Southland Conference, I would have thought of them often.

TSU's market is being an HBCU in the SWAC. A bigger, far more prestigious school is down the street, literally. And there's plenty of more competition, from a small but even more prestigious school only a few miles away, a rival HBCU in the same metro area, the Big Boys (Texas, A&M and now Tech to a lesser extent), the Southland and did I mention pro sports?

The best scenario would be to play a schedule balanced with national games, buy games and HBCU games. Realistically, there are 4 options for TSU going forward:

-Merge with UH (should have happened decades ago but politics won't allow it short of TSU's bankruptcy, which is possible)

-Get taken over by the UT system, which nearly happened because of some inept/corrupt leaders. It's shocking that Texas has no full fledged branch campus in Houston and a UT Branch would have some level of popularity if it got going last decade and perhaps in the future.

-The status quo...if so, the SWAC should add Paul Quinn (as bad of a shape as they're in) and perhaps Huston-Tillotson or an Oklahoma HBCU. Give them more closer rivals.

-The Southland...where you save on travel but bore your fanbase with non-HBCU's. If the goal is to win more and increase your status, you better be all in.
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2019 12:43 AM by _C2_.)
06-12-2019 12:27 AM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 11:50 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 11:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 09:14 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 07:36 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Southland has way too many schools. Texas Southern beat 3 P5’s last year. Just stick with the SWAC where there’s less teams to go through, higher shares, and more rivals.

Yeah, Southland is its own mess. Aren’t SFA, SHSU, and Lamar itching to get out?

Rock and a hard place if there ever was.

The WAC would be their only option. From a cost standpoint, better to stay in the SLC. Texas Southern would be stupid to join the bloated SLC.
Or they could stay in the SWAC and slum it with a bunch of bottom-feeders like Miss Valley State and Prairie View. As great as the HBCU sports tradition is, the overall quality of athletics is hot garbage and the SWAC and MEAC compete for the bottom conference in every major and secondary sport out there. The SLC would be a huge step forward for them.

Yeah the Southland is the epitome of great athletic programs. There’s just as many bottom-feeders there. Houston Baptist, New Orleans, Northwestern St, just to name a few. TSU joining the WAC would be way better IMO
Compared to the SWAC? Sure there are some bad programs, but the ceiling is much higher for the good programs in the Southland. The SWAC doesn't have a program with the resume that Sam Houston, SFA, or McNeese brings, and oh, by the way, all of those schools are closer to TSU than just about any of the other schools in the SWAC. Who does the SWAC have, Grambling? They can't even keep their equipment from getting black mold all over it. They're not exactly the Grambling Eddie Robinson built and they're still the best football program the SWAC has to offer.

The SLC is a mess, sure, but it's not SWAC levels of bad. The SLC may be a bloated catchall conference, but it's not a bunch of institutions trying to figure out how to keep from being rendered obsolete. These are very uncertain times to be an HBCU, and with the challenges before them burying your head in the sand and pretending it's still 1979 isn't a solution.

(06-11-2019 06:46 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


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Nobody's doing that now. The HBCUs all have, to varying degrees, non-black students in their populations.
Yep. I know a white guy that went to Elizabeth City State. Supposedly he got a scholly from the school for helping to diversify their student body, though I don't know how true that is. I do know some of the HBCUs are offering scholarships for non-black students to attend them.
06-12-2019 12:35 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 08:02 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


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Nobody is forced to attend any college. If whites aren’t attending HBCU’s, it’s not because they’re being discriminated against, they just don’t want to go there. Go look at any HBCUs baseball team, blacks are the minority there. Many black students choose to go to HBCUs, they’re not required to.

My HBCU's baseball team was mostly black and often, IIRC, 100% minority if not black.
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2019 12:41 AM by _C2_.)
06-12-2019 12:41 AM
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DoubleRSU Online
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Post: #31
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-12-2019 12:41 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 08:02 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


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Nobody is forced to attend any college. If whites aren’t attending HBCU’s, it’s not because they’re being discriminated against, they just don’t want to go there. Go look at any HBCUs baseball team, blacks are the minority there. Many black students choose to go to HBCUs, they’re not required to.

My HBCU's baseball team was mostly black and often, IIRC, 100% minority if not black.

I looked at Bethune Cookman

https://bcuathletics.com/roster.aspx?ros...h=baseball

Looks mostly white and Latino to me
06-12-2019 08:34 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 03:57 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  The winner of the conference could decide to play in the playoffs rather than CB. But so far they have all decided to go to the Celebration Bowl instead. Conference runner-up can get an invite to the playoffs if they're good enough to earn it. The HBCUs would rather go to the Celebration Bowl because of many reasons; only one travel date, great destination, better TV time/date, more money, bigger TV audience, etc.

Ah, I didn't know about the choice component. I thought I saw a MEAC or SWAC at-large a year or two ago, but thought the champ was pretty much committed to the CB.
06-12-2019 08:58 AM
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Cyniclone Online
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Post: #33
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-12-2019 08:58 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 03:57 PM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  The winner of the conference could decide to play in the playoffs rather than CB. But so far they have all decided to go to the Celebration Bowl instead. Conference runner-up can get an invite to the playoffs if they're good enough to earn it. The HBCUs would rather go to the Celebration Bowl because of many reasons; only one travel date, great destination, better TV time/date, more money, bigger TV audience, etc.

Ah, I didn't know about the choice component. I thought I saw a MEAC or SWAC at-large a year or two ago, but thought the champ was pretty much committed to the CB.

That’s my understanding, that the MEAC and SWAC committed their champions to the bowl in lieu of the playoffs. They forfeit their automatic bid but can accept at-large bids (N.C. A&T did recently)
06-12-2019 10:17 AM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
Makes more sense that way. I knew NCAT went to the playoffs the year they didn't go to the Celebration Bowl.


I think the $1 million dollar split from the Celebration Bowl that the MEAC/SWAC get is enough to keep them together for a while. However, If the MEAC ever does fall part they have room elsewhere. NCAT/NCCU/FAMU/Howard/BC/SCSU would slip into the Big South and/or ASUN easy enough.
06-12-2019 10:24 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-11-2019 01:46 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Sports is a way that many schools market themselves to promote enrollment of tuition paying students. I looked at TSU's website and saw that in Fall 2005 that had 11,903 students. In Fall of 2018 they had 9,099 (a decline of 2804 or 24%).

Would a move to the Southland help TSU recruit more tuition paying students?
Does being in the SWAC affect TSU's enrollment positively or negatively?

As an example of "sports as marketing", I followed TSU during the CIT and enjoyed their play. So now I have a positive association to TSU in my mind. I lived in central Texas for 15 years and never thought of TSU once. But if they would have played in the Southland Conference, I would have thought of them often.

I've lived in Central Texas for my whole life and didnt even know the Southland or FCS football existed until I started attending TXST. Most prospective students wouldnt care about them being SWAC or not unless their parents were all about that HBCU life and raised them as such.
06-12-2019 08:31 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
I'd like to see the stronger HBCUs from the MEAC and SWAC band together to form a "Black SEC". The rest should go to DII. Culture and Heritage are what define these programs but at the same time the weak ones are pulling the strong down with them. Programs like NC A&T, FAMU, and Texas Southern need separation from schools like Delaware St and Ark-PB.

Overall I think each HBCU needs to look at their individual situation and decide whether they can continue in the niche of providing a unique liberal arts style education to a predominantly black student body or if they are better off shedding that image and diversifying their student body.
06-12-2019 08:39 PM
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RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
The SWAC is restarting it's Football Championship game, and moving from 7 to 8 conference Football games.

https://fbschedules.com/swac-continue-ch...-schedule/
06-13-2019 02:17 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-12-2019 12:35 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 11:50 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 11:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  
(06-10-2019 09:14 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Yeah, Southland is its own mess. Aren’t SFA, SHSU, and Lamar itching to get out?

Rock and a hard place if there ever was.

The WAC would be their only option. From a cost standpoint, better to stay in the SLC. Texas Southern would be stupid to join the bloated SLC.
Or they could stay in the SWAC and slum it with a bunch of bottom-feeders like Miss Valley State and Prairie View. As great as the HBCU sports tradition is, the overall quality of athletics is hot garbage and the SWAC and MEAC compete for the bottom conference in every major and secondary sport out there. The SLC would be a huge step forward for them.

Yeah the Southland is the epitome of great athletic programs. There’s just as many bottom-feeders there. Houston Baptist, New Orleans, Northwestern St, just to name a few. TSU joining the WAC would be way better IMO
Compared to the SWAC? Sure there are some bad programs, but the ceiling is much higher for the good programs in the Southland. The SWAC doesn't have a program with the resume that Sam Houston, SFA, or McNeese brings, and oh, by the way, all of those schools are closer to TSU than just about any of the other schools in the SWAC. Who does the SWAC have, Grambling? They can't even keep their equipment from getting black mold all over it. They're not exactly the Grambling Eddie Robinson built and they're still the best football program the SWAC has to offer.

The SLC is a mess, sure, but it's not SWAC levels of bad. The SLC may be a bloated catchall conference, but it's not a bunch of institutions trying to figure out how to keep from being rendered obsolete. These are very uncertain times to be an HBCU, and with the challenges before them burying your head in the sand and pretending it's still 1979 isn't a solution.

(06-11-2019 06:46 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(06-11-2019 06:37 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The time has come to QUIT the practice of dividing Up students based upon race ..or skin pigment ..That should be ILLEGAL


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Nobody's doing that now. The HBCUs all have, to varying degrees, non-black students in their populations.
Yep. I know a white guy that went to Elizabeth City State. Supposedly he got a scholly from the school for helping to diversify their student body, though I don't know how true that is. I do know some of the HBCUs are offering scholarships for non-black students to attend them.

I knew of several folks that went to FAMU while I was at FSU that were there because it was easier to enroll in classes in their major at FAMU.
06-13-2019 08:27 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-12-2019 08:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I'd like to see the stronger HBCUs from the MEAC and SWAC band together to form a "Black SEC". The rest should go to DII. Culture and Heritage are what define these programs but at the same time the weak ones are pulling the strong down with them. Programs like NC A&T, FAMU, and Texas Southern need separation from schools like Delaware St and Ark-PB.

Overall I think each HBCU needs to look at their individual situation and decide whether they can continue in the niche of providing a unique liberal arts style education to a predominantly black student body or if they are better off shedding that image and diversifying their student body.

UAPB won the SWAC west football a few years back. They do show more signs of life than Delaware State. But, black SEC would make their teams be strung further apart, and money woes gets bigger.
06-13-2019 08:43 AM
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RE: Texas Southern Considering Southland?
(06-10-2019 11:43 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is no conference based playoff money in FCS, so it doesn't matter if the SLC has 11 or 12 football members. They will play 8 conference games regardless. And larger conferences tend to get more at large bids, so the chances of making the FCS playoff are probably no different.

This is just more evidence IMO that the two HBCU conferences are slowly dying off. Members schools one by one are building survival plans based on post-HBCU life. I mean that beyond athletics, as some schools are looking to become more racially balanced and are facing the reality that state funding almost demands that. Looking for athletic conferences beyond the HBCU such as Tennessee State and Hampton have done, is part of that. The reaction to Hampton's move shows how sensitive that reality is, how deep the cognitive dissonance on the subject of integration is in the HBCU community. We hear rumors now and again of schools like FAMU testing the waters, and probably a couple we never hear about. The diversity of the schools and their directions is ripping apart the nostalgia holding the SWAC and MEAC together. We can just add Texas Southern to the list of schools looking at post-HBCU conference membership.

Where do some of you come up with the BS you come up with? You haven't been within 200 miles of an HBCU haven't followed either conference but you come with the most our of this world assessments. Man some of yall gotta stop. I see the most craziest delusional isht on this board regarding HBCUs that it's crazy.
06-13-2019 01:37 PM
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