Here are the official 2018 per-school revenue distributions for the P5 conferences. Finally, at long last, my prediction about B1G supremacy has been bourne out:

1) B1G .... $54.7m *

2) SEC .... $43.7m **

3) B12 .... $34.5m

4) PAC .... $31.3m

5) ACC .... $30m


* Maryland and Rutgers received reduced amounts due to phase-in process.

** Mississippi State received a reduced amount due to football post-season ban.

Source for PAC, SEC, and Big 12:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...747302002/

Source for B1G:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...686089002/

Source for ACC:

https://theosceola.com/notes-fsu-sets-20...-increase/

BXII looking good.

Tier 3 rights bring B 12 up to SEC payments

(06-01-2019 03:31 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Tier 3 rights bring B 12 up to SEC payments

Outside of Austin and Norman, they really don't. The other schools roll their T3 rights into the radio/multimedia contracts run by IMG, Learfield, etc. Every school has these MM contracts, so if you're going to tack T3 on to overall revenue for B12 schools, you need to do it for everyone else for an apples-to-apples comparison. The T3 games are pretty marginal parts of those MM contracts. VT and WVU, for example, both have contracts with IMG covering pretty much the same things. VT earns around $7M per year from its contract, vs $6M for WVU despite the latter having the T3 games rolled in.

The bigger issue that comes from these numbers is the pending ACC Network closing the gap between the ACC and the B12. How is Oklahoma going to feel next year if Wake Forest's TV revenue is in the same ballpark (or possibly exceeds) the Sooners? Seems to me OK either hikes up her skirt to the B10/SEC, or forces Texas to drop the LHN in favor of a B12 linear network.

(06-01-2019 04:31 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 03:31 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Tier 3 rights bring B 12 up to SEC payments

Outside of Austin and Norman, they really don't. The other schools roll their T3 rights into the radio/multimedia contracts run by IMG, Learfield, etc. Every school has these MM contracts, so if you're going to tack T3 on to overall revenue for B12 schools, you need to do it for everyone else for an apples-to-apples comparison. The T3 games are pretty marginal parts of those MM contracts. VT and WVU, for example, both have contracts with IMG covering pretty much the same things. VT earns around $7M per year from its contract, vs $6M for WVU despite the latter having the T3 games rolled in.

The bigger issue that comes from these numbers is the pending ACC Network closing the gap between the ACC and the B12. How is Oklahoma going to feel next year if Wake Forest's TV revenue is in the same ballpark (or possibly exceeds) the Sooners? Seems to me OK either hikes up her skirt to the B10/SEC, or forces Texas to drop the LHN in favor of a B12 linear network.

Yes, these are basically the last pre-ACCN numbers, and it will be very interesting to see how the ACCN impacts them.

FWIW, in their 2019 - 2020 budget, FSU is expecting an increase of about $3m thanks to the ACCN.

Also, it is clear that when we talk about the P5/G5 gap, the P5 number now has to start at "30", not in the 20s as has historically been the case.

I think it’s Ole Miss that has a reduced amount, not MSU

(05-31-2019 09:37 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Here are the official 2018 per-school revenue distributions for the P5 conferences. Finally, at long last, my prediction about B1G supremacy has been bourne out:

1) B1G .... $54.7m *

2) SEC .... $43.7m **

3) B12 .... $34.5m

4) PAC .... $31.3m

5) ACC .... $30m


* Maryland and Rutgers received reduced amounts due to phase-in process.

** Mississippi State received a reduced amount due to football post-season ban.

Source for PAC, SEC, and Big 12:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...747302002/

Source for B1G:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...686089002/

Source for ACC:

https://theosceola.com/notes-fsu-sets-20...-increase/

Big 10 averages about $49 when you take into account $26.1 for MD and $11.7 million for Rutgers. Still first, but not so far ahead. That article mentions that Ole Miss forfeited $7.1 million (not clear if that is the 50% given to other schools or includes the 50% temporarily withheld) so the impact on the SEC number is minor-.27 to .54 million.

Also, those ACC numbers are not comparable. Those are the 2018-19 year projections (2019-20 of 32.076 less 2.37 million=29.7). The ACC distributed $26.6 million in 16-17, last figures I've seen.

I think there are 44-45 million reasons why there isn't going to be much in the way of P5 realignment any time soon...

USFFan

(05-31-2019 09:37 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Here are the official 2018 per-school revenue distributions for the P5 conferences. Finally, at long last, my prediction about B1G supremacy has been bourne out:

1) B1G .... $54.7m *

2) SEC .... $43.7m **

3) B12 .... $34.5m

4) PAC .... $31.3m

5) ACC .... $30m


* Maryland and Rutgers received reduced amounts due to phase-in process.

** Mississippi State received a reduced amount due to football post-season ban.

Source for PAC, SEC, and Big 12:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...747302002/

Source for B1G:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...686089002/

Source for ACC:

https://theosceola.com/notes-fsu-sets-20...-increase/

You sure pick some lousy sources. And for the record your prediction about Big 10 media superiority won't be borne out until 2025. The SEC's T1 is up in 2023, the Big 10 will renew by 2024 and then the chips will fall where they may.

Aside from the Big 10 revenue and SEC revenue the other sources you cite are either specious, or in the case of ESPN intentionally deceptive about PAC revenue, or wrong.

Big 12: 38.8 million plus T3 revenue which is not distributed by the conference.

https://sportstoday.dallasnews.com/colle...ast-season

or this one if the Dallas link doesn't work for you:
https://oklahoman.com/article/5632807/bo...p-going-up

And you might want to go to a news source for the ACC figures:

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt...story.html

And the non deceptive report on the PAC 12 Revenue disbursement which did not include Rose Bowl funds withheld by the conference for 2 years to prop up the numbers:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/20...747302002/

So Quo the last 3 P conference distributions were actually:

Big 12: 38.8 million (plus T3 revenue)
PAC 12: 29.5 million for the actual year
ACC: 29.5 million

Edit: The Dallas News site refuses to connect but I have now provided a link to the Okahoman. Same news.

(06-01-2019 03:31 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Tier 3 rights bring B 12 up to SEC payments

Texas earns ~15million on T3 via the LHN.

Oklahoma earns ~8 million from FOX for T3 but they have to cover overhead so they NET about 5 million.

All of the rest earn less than 3 million on their T3 media money. West Virginia inckudes their signage in the numbers they report which makes it appear they earn almost as much as OU on T3 but they don't. No conference distributes since those are retained by schools.

here is how Jon Wilner has the numbers

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/05/20/p...-expenses/

Big Ten: $54 million per school (actual)
SEC: $43.7 million per school (actual)
Big 12: $36.5 million per school (actual; excludes local TV rights)
Pac-12: $31.3 million per school (actual)
ACC: not yet reported

then there is an article for the ACC 2018 fiscal year (the same year as above for the others)

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt...story.html

so

Big Ten: $54 million per school (actual)
SEC: $43.7 million per school (actual)
Big 12: $36.5 million per school (actual; excludes local TV rights)
Pac-12: $31.3 million per school (actual)
ACC: $29.5 million

(06-01-2019 12:27 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  here is how Jon Wilner has the numbers

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/05/20/p...-expenses/

Big Ten: $54 million per school (actual)
SEC: $43.7 million per school (actual)
Big 12: $36.5 million per school (actual; excludes local TV rights)
Pac-12: $31.3 million per school (actual)
ACC: not yet reported

then there is an article for the ACC 2018 fiscal year (the same year as above for the others)

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt...story.html

so

Big Ten: $54 million per school (actual)
SEC: $43.7 million per school (actual)
Big 12: $36.5 million per school (actual; excludes local TV rights)
Pac-12: $31.3 million per school (actual)
ACC: $29.5 million

Todge since Wilner issued that report the ACC's actual revenue has come out as I linked above and you might want to check out the Oklahoman link I provided above as well when I edited my original post. The Big 12 paid out 38.8 million. It's not unusual for earlier released figures to be amended, especially at or after the Spring Meetings.

(06-01-2019 04:31 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 03:31 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Tier 3 rights bring B 12 up to SEC payments

Outside of Austin and Norman, they really don't. The other schools roll their T3 rights into the radio/multimedia contracts run by IMG, Learfield, etc. Every school has these MM contracts, so if you're going to tack T3 on to overall revenue for B12 schools, you need to do it for everyone else for an apples-to-apples comparison. The T3 games are pretty marginal parts of those MM contracts. VT and WVU, for example, both have contracts with IMG covering pretty much the same things. VT earns around $7M per year from its contract, vs $6M for WVU despite the latter having the T3 games rolled in.

The bigger issue that comes from these numbers is the pending ACC Network closing the gap between the ACC and the B12. How is Oklahoma going to feel next year if Wake Forest's TV revenue is in the same ballpark (or possibly exceeds) the Sooners? Seems to me OK either hikes up her skirt to the B10/SEC, or forces Texas to drop the LHN in favor of a B12 linear network.

this is actually incorrect

all the members of the Big 12 had contracts with Learfield or IMG that were in existence before tier 3 rights were available

when the tier 3 rights were available Learfield or IMG marketed those rights, but they were marketed in ADDITION to the already existing contracts with one exception and that was WVU because it happened that WVU had their existing contract expiring at the same time as they joined the Big 12 and got their 3rd tier rights

WVU gets $80 million for 12 years or $6.67 million per year

and according to this database from 2017 VT earns $5,840,000

https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/new...orate.html

so unless VT renewed in the last two years for a very small increase WVU is earning more....but I doubt VT has renewed recently since that database has the expiration with IMG in 6/20/2024

the above database has WVU at $6.2 million with a sharing threshold of $8.35 expiring 6/30/2025

VT can earn 50% of the revenues or take the guarantee

Jon Wilner has estimated that most Big 12 teams earn about $1.5 million for their third tier rights and has used that in a couple of articles he has written on the subject of conference revenue comparisons

and again for all but WVU those rights were sold after the other deals were in place and in addition to those existing deals

(06-01-2019 12:40 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 12:27 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  here is how Jon Wilner has the numbers

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/05/20/p...-expenses/

Big Ten: $54 million per school (actual)
SEC: $43.7 million per school (actual)
Big 12: $36.5 million per school (actual; excludes local TV rights)
Pac-12: $31.3 million per school (actual)
ACC: not yet reported

then there is an article for the ACC 2018 fiscal year (the same year as above for the others)

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt...story.html

so

Big Ten: $54 million per school (actual)
SEC: $43.7 million per school (actual)
Big 12: $36.5 million per school (actual; excludes local TV rights)
Pac-12: $31.3 million per school (actual)
ACC: $29.5 million

Todge since Wilner issued that report the ACC's actual revenue has come out as I linked above and you might want to check out the Oklahoman link I provided above as well when I edited my original post. The Big 12 paid out 38.8 million. It's not unusual for earlier released figures to be amended, especially at or after the Spring Meetings.

the goal is to compare like to like

the PAC 12 is always a year behind because of their fiscal year dates

the numbers I listed are for FY 2018

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/05/20/p...-expenses/

The highlights from the unveiling, which covered the 2018 fiscal year (full breakdown on key topics below)

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt...story.html

The conference released its 2017-18 federal tax return Friday to the Daily Press, Virginian-Pilot and other outlets.

so the numbers I used are a like for like comparison of what was earned in the FY 2018 no matter when the distribution or announcement was made

(06-01-2019 12:59 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 04:31 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 03:31 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Tier 3 rights bring B 12 up to SEC payments

Outside of Austin and Norman, they really don't. The other schools roll their T3 rights into the radio/multimedia contracts run by IMG, Learfield, etc. Every school has these MM contracts, so if you're going to tack T3 on to overall revenue for B12 schools, you need to do it for everyone else for an apples-to-apples comparison. The T3 games are pretty marginal parts of those MM contracts. VT and WVU, for example, both have contracts with IMG covering pretty much the same things. VT earns around $7M per year from its contract, vs $6M for WVU despite the latter having the T3 games rolled in.

The bigger issue that comes from these numbers is the pending ACC Network closing the gap between the ACC and the B12. How is Oklahoma going to feel next year if Wake Forest's TV revenue is in the same ballpark (or possibly exceeds) the Sooners? Seems to me OK either hikes up her skirt to the B10/SEC, or forces Texas to drop the LHN in favor of a B12 linear network.

this is actually incorrect

all the members of the Big 12 had contracts with Learfield or IMG that were in existence before tier 3 rights were available ...

WVU gets $80 million for 12 years or $6.67 million per year

I'm sure it varies but all I had was WVU's IMG contract you stated. It seems reasonable to assume most B12 schools are outsourcing the implementation of Tier 3 to firm that have expertise in negotiating advertising and sports marketing, rather than doing it in-house. But a quick search on the non-UT/OK schools didn't come up with anything.

Quote:and according to this database from 2017 VT earns $5,840,000

That was in the first year. It ramps up annually to $8.7M, with an avg of $7.2M per year.

https://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-b...-post.html

Quote:Jon Wilner has estimated that most Big 12 teams earn about $1.5 million for their third tier rights and has used that in a couple of articles he has written on the subject of conference revenue comparisons

That sounds high. TCU's '16 T3 revenue was $432k (page 22). And that's in one of the B12's largest market.

Moreover, my original point was really to argue that adding T3 revenue to B12 payouts brings them close to SEC. It really doesn't. It could, if the B12 could get a bona fide conference network. But Bevo continues to poop on that possibility.

(06-01-2019 10:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  FWIW, in their 2019 - 2020 budget, FSU is expecting an increase of about $3m thanks to the ACCN.

It would take an unmitigated disaster in carriage fees or providers for the ACCN to bring in only $3M. Even conservative estimates are around $10M per year. I could see an accelerating payout starting around $7M/yr, with caveats installed where the accleration drops off if cord cutting and carriages drop off a cliff.

Quote:Jon Wilner has estimated that most Big 12 teams earn about $1.5 million for their third tier rights and has used that in a couple of articles he has written on the subject of conference revenue comparisons

That sounds high. TCU's '16 T3 revenue was $432k (page 22). And that's in one of the B12's largest market.

Moreover, my original point was really to argue that adding T3 revenue to B12 payouts brings them close to SEC. It really doesn't. It could, if the B12 could get a bona fide conference network. But Bevo continues to poop on that possibility.
[/quote]

TCU's 3rd tier money was negotiated right as we left the MWC for the Big 12 so we really hadn't had a change to establish real value. We also took less money in order to get more appearances for our other sports. So don't compare us to the other schools that had a tract record with the Big 12 prior to us coming on board.

(06-01-2019 07:52 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 10:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  FWIW, in their 2019 - 2020 budget, FSU is expecting an increase of about $3m thanks to the ACCN.

It would take an unmitigated disaster in carriage fees or providers for the ACCN to bring in only $3M. Even conservative estimates are around $10M per year. I could see an accelerating payout starting around $7M/yr, with caveats installed where the accleration drops off if cord cutting and carriages drop off a cliff.

the BTN was only paying out $8.1 million a few years back and that declined to $7.8 million a couple of years into Nebraska being there and before Maryland and Rutgers and the Big 10 owns half of that network so they would be getting more

the SEC SEC SEC network has not come close to paying out $10 million from any reports it has been closer to $5

even this report has $8 million as an estimate for both the BTN and SEC SEC SEC n

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp...story.html

(and they have the PAC12n at $2.75 million per school which is meaningfully higher than Wilner has the PAC12n)

so it is hard to imagine the ACCn will pay out $10 million per school

(06-01-2019 07:52 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  

(06-01-2019 10:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  FWIW, in their 2019 - 2020 budget, FSU is expecting an increase of about $3m thanks to the ACCN.

It would take an unmitigated disaster in carriage fees or providers for the ACCN to bring in only $3M. Even conservative estimates are around $10M per year. I could see an accelerating payout starting around $7M/yr, with caveats installed where the accleration drops off if cord cutting and carriages drop off a cliff.

Well let's see. The average rate for the SEC (in footprint and out combined) is .74 cents per subscription. The average rate for the Big 10 (in footprint and out combined) is .49 cents. The average rate for the PAC (in footprint and out combined) is .11 cents. The SEC draws more viewers than anyone. The SEC has the highest % of actual viewers vs potential viewers within its own footprint than any other conference and the SEC makes about 8 million off of the SECN. The ACC is tied with the PAC for the fewest number of actual viewers vs potential viewers and is 5th nationally in viewership. So you tell me what kind of rate the ACC is going to get!

With ESPN's help and bundled with the SECN in a package, I expect the ACC to do much better than the PAC because the PAC has nobody pushing their carriage. They love totally owning their product. The ad thing is that 100% of little is still only a little. I think if the ACCN gets an average .35 cents they should be ecstatic. I also think .25 cents is possible. Based on your numbers anything more than .35 cents is a gift.

In addition there are start up costs to be recouped. I dont think either the big ten or pac 13 paid out the first couple of years. The sec did, but they began building the start up costs in years before and individually bought back their rights.

So the add network may payout year one, it probably much less than it takes in in revenues.