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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
well, well, well......Mueller lied.


05-29-2019 04:40 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 04:11 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(05-29-2019 03:56 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  I am not posting this to defend Trump - I am also not here to indict the guy either.


If I really sit back and look at this whole thing (and what Mueller had to say today) as objectively as I can, this is how I would summarize it:

- Mueller's primary objective was to see if the Trump campaign conspired with the Russians to rig the election. It sounds very much like Trump did not do so, however, there was plenty of compelling evidence that Russia did try to push things in one direction or the other. Without saying it - he basically said that you are all missing the point here - RUSSIA WAS F-ING with our election!!!!!! But it was not in the way the Dems had hoped they were.

- In the process of the investigation he came across many other wrongdoings. As a law man, I would think he would be compelled to pursue those things if he became aware of them, and it looks like he did that.

- It does seem that Trump was at the very least trying to divert Mueller and at the very most block Mueller from things. He has stated as clearly as anything that he said today, that his report includes his entire account of those actions and it was up to those who have the real power to act on those findings to do so if they choose.

- Nadler is really walking on a fine line and so is Pelosi. They are playing off of each other right now as each other's excuse to basically not actually do anything, but sound like they really are. It stuns me that ZERO dems have looked at the unredacted Mueller report and briefed their peers. They can see it, but for some reason they choose not to?




The dems are in a really bad spot here. There seems to be smoke but they cannot find the fire. If they go all in on impeachment and lose, their party will get pummeled in the next round of elections and the Republicans will railroad every bag of anti-democrat policy schidt they can, so that it will take a decade or more to reverse it if they every get the chance again.

I have said it before and I will continue to say it. I am a republican at heart (and by registration) but I will vote for the best candidate when someone proves to be one, regardless of party lines - if it is a tie, I go by party lines - even if I have to hold my nose while I pull that lever. It is my humble opinion that many many people vote the same way. The dems are fumbling on this in a big way. Trump is the second most unelectable person who has run for that office in my lifetime and as of right now, the dems still cannot put up somebody who can beat that?

Personality wise, I agree with you. Your intuition on how other Americans is correct for me, but I dare not say that there's A LOT of Americans that vote that way. In 2019, all you have to do is look at facebook and twitter on occasion to see that the majority of folks vote straight party tickets.

IMO, there are two simple reasons that dems can't put up someone who can beat Trump right now. The first is that he's doing a good job with the economy and people seldom want to upend a good economy just because they don't like how someone speaks or tweets. Second (and more importantly), the left has gone so far in the way of identity politics that they've alienated many of the centrist politicians who would stand any sort of chance against Trump based on policy. They value identity politics more than policy politics and are clamoring for a new "first" every four years at the expense of putting up electable candidates.

Agree with both of these posts....

I'd put up one additional thing though...

Trump VERY early on pushed for Mueller to clear the White House/Trump of colluding with Russia... The left said it was because they were trying to stop the investigation, but it seems even MORE clear now that this was because Trump knew he hadn't colluded, and also knew that the specter hanging over him was going to impede his ability to do the job he was elected to do. The report actually quotes him saying this, so it's clear an undeniable.

Yes, Russia trolled social media and tried very hard to hack the DNC, probably the RNC, a few states and I'm sure others. They also tried very hard to 'frame' Trump and his people. I'm actually SHOCKED (and I mean that seriously) that the Trump organization from the top down seems to have for the most part resisted it. I mean, here we have a guy ironically with the handle Machiavelli, trolling the right. How do we know he's not a Russian spy... or if offered information on Trump from say China, would he know NOT to take it? He'd take it and run with it... and he's not a dumb person and for all I know, part of the DNC. Given all the people in the Trump organization with business experience only, I am truly shocked that they were able to avoid being compromised by Russian agents. In business, that would have been de riguer.

Trump only tried to obstruct/end investigations into the Trump organization... not into Russia... and what Mueller is basically saying is hey Dumbocrats... stop focusing on what DIDN'T happen (the President wasn't compromised) and instead focus on what DID happen, that you CLAIMED was what you cared about... Russia influencing our elections.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2019 05:05 PM by Hambone10.)
05-29-2019 05:04 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
welp, now the DOJ and Mueller SC office are putting out a joint statement that what Barr said and what Mueller said are one in the same thing.

In other words, the OLC didnt prevent Mueller from bringing charges against Trump, and if you heard Mueller say anything differently today, you heard it wrong.


(This post was last modified: 05-29-2019 06:43 PM by UofMstateU.)
05-29-2019 06:43 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
It's NOT the Constitution that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's NOT the law that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's the Office of Legal Counsels 'OPINION' that prevented Trumps indictment.

Listen to Muellers words again. He said OLC's opinion. He did not have the “OPTION” OF INDICTMENT.
05-29-2019 06:59 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 10:57 AM)banker Wrote:  I want him to testify specifically so he can answer when he made a determination there was no collusion. If that was early on, then it's an admission that he kept the investigation open only in hopes of ensnaring someone, anyone, in some form of lie or obstruction. In other words, continue to investigate in hopes of creating a crime instead of having a crime to investigate.

This. Exactly.
05-29-2019 07:22 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #46
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 06:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's NOT the Constitution that prevented Trump from being indicted.
It's NOT the law that prevented Trump from being indicted.
It's the Office of Legal Counsels 'OPINION' that prevented Trumps indictment.
Listen to Muellers words again. He said OLC's opinion. He did not have the “OPTION” OF INDICTMENT.

It's all OPINIONS at this point. You have your opinions that have been repeatedly stated.

What we are short of is facts to support convictions. Mueller says he doesn't have enough to support conspiracy and is somewhat ambivalent about obstruction. Here's the problem with obstruction. You have to prove 1) an obstructive act, 2) nexus to an existing or potential investigation, and 3) criminal intent. You have to prove all three of them. What Mueller recited in his report was a number of things that might fit the "act" description, and at least some of them probably meet the nexus requirement. But proving intent is always a witch (or something that rhymes with witch) and particularly when the underlying crime of conspiracy is not present. Mueller's comments about intent in his report go to intent to attempt or commit the particular acts. Criminal intent is on a whole other level. Basically, Trump did things that he is constitutionally empowered to do. To be culpable, they must be accompanied by criminal intent.

The other point I would make is this. The only person who is immune to indictment per your analysis is Trump himself. Other people could still be indicted. Presumably you don't conspire or obstruct alone, there would be others involved. And they could be indicted. So where are their indictments?

This case is easily differentiated from Nixon, because Watergate started with the underlying crime, the break-in, and the investigation was about a crime. Here the investigation was in search of a crime that does not seem to have been proved up. It is also easily distinguishable fro Hillary. Hillary's crimes, as recited by Comey, did not require intent as an element, but somehow Comey decided that he could not prosecute without intent. Moreover, two leading indicia of intent, lying to congress and destruction of evidence, were both present in Hillary's case.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2019 07:32 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
05-29-2019 07:30 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 03:24 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  It wasn't Mueller's responsibility to decide whether or not the President can be indicted. It was his responsibility to do an investigation and report the findings to the DOJ(AG). They they/he decides whether or not indictments are handed down. He found nothing. Wasted $35mill and destroyed people's lives in the process who had done nothing wrong until the Govt. broke them while they were trying to prove it. Some even went to jail after going broke. Karma will hit Mueller and his crew hard.

Don’t forget the what, 500?, people who were subpoenaed and had to hire expensive lawyers.
05-29-2019 07:30 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 06:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's NOT the Constitution that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's NOT the law that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's the Office of Legal Counsels 'OPINION' that prevented Trumps indictment.

Listen to Muellers words again. He said OLC's opinion. He did not have the “OPTION” OF INDICTMENT.

No, it is the lack of any evidence that prevents Trump from being indicted. IGI.
05-29-2019 07:36 PM
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Eagleaidaholic Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 07:30 PM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  
(05-29-2019 03:24 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  It wasn't Mueller's responsibility to decide whether or not the President can be indicted. It was his responsibility to do an investigation and report the findings to the DOJ(AG). They they/he decides whether or not indictments are handed down. He found nothing. Wasted $35mill and destroyed people's lives in the process who had done nothing wrong until the Govt. broke them while they were trying to prove it. Some even went to jail after going broke. Karma will hit Mueller and his crew hard.

Don’t forget the what, 500?, people who were subpoenaed and had to hire expensive lawyers.

I was referring to them. Lotta people filed BK because of this expensive charade.
05-29-2019 07:42 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #50
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 05:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Trump VERY early on pushed for Mueller to clear the White House/Trump of colluding with Russia... The left said it was because they were trying to stop the investigation, but it seems even MORE clear now that this was because Trump knew he hadn't colluded, and also knew that the specter hanging over him was going to impede his ability to do the job he was elected to do. The report actually quotes him saying this, so it's clear an undeniable.

And there goes criminal intent, and with it, there goes obstruction.
05-29-2019 08:03 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 10:27 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  wow....

It's like a dog with a ball

Or Pavlov's dog? The Russian has the Democrats drooling.
05-29-2019 08:23 PM
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Crebman Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 07:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(05-29-2019 06:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's NOT the Constitution that prevented Trump from being indicted.
It's NOT the law that prevented Trump from being indicted.
It's the Office of Legal Counsels 'OPINION' that prevented Trumps indictment.
Listen to Muellers words again. He said OLC's opinion. He did not have the “OPTION” OF INDICTMENT.

It's all OPINIONS at this point. You have your opinions that have been repeatedly stated.

What we are short of is facts to support convictions. Mueller says he doesn't have enough to support conspiracy and is somewhat ambivalent about obstruction. Here's the problem with obstruction. You have to prove 1) an obstructive act, 2) nexus to an existing or potential investigation, and 3) criminal intent. You have to prove all three of them. What Mueller recited in his report was a number of things that might fit the "act" description, and at least some of them probably meet the nexus requirement. But proving intent is always a witch (or something that rhymes with witch) and particularly when the underlying crime of conspiracy is not present. Mueller's comments about intent in his report go to intent to attempt or commit the particular acts. Criminal intent is on a whole other level. Basically, Trump did things that he is constitutionally empowered to do. To be culpable, they must be accompanied by criminal intent.

The other point I would make is this. The only person who is immune to indictment per your analysis is Trump himself. Other people could still be indicted. Presumably you don't conspire or obstruct alone, there would be others involved. And they could be indicted. So where are their indictments?

This case is easily differentiated from Nixon, because Watergate started with the underlying crime, the break-in, and the investigation was about a crime. Here the investigation was in search of a crime that does not seem to have been proved up. It is also easily distinguishable fro Hillary. Hillary's crimes, as recited by Comey, did not require intent as an element, but somehow Comey decided that he could not prosecute without intent. Moreover, two leading indicia of intent, lying to congress and destruction of evidence, were both present in Hillary's case.

The elephant in the room??

No one associated with the entire Trump administration was indicted for obstruction (and since they aren’t the president, they can be indicted)........can anyone paint any scenario where Donald Trump alone, by himself, obstructed justice and NO ONE that he associated with participated??

No way, no how was Trump “the lone wolf obstructionist”.

This is Mueller playing more politics - and trying to skate from having to testify before Congress.
05-29-2019 09:02 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 08:01 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  If you start hearing the term that Mueller wont testify because he's camera shy (its already been posted by the left in this very forum, so the talking points have been distributed) its a lie.

The real reason he wont testify is because he doesnt want to state when he knew there was no collusion. Because he then doesnt want to explain why he didnt release his findings WAY sooner than he did. He kept the country on edge. (Well, at least he kept members of the left foaming at the mouth thinking Mueller was going to have Trump removed.)



So he should have done it before the election?
05-29-2019 11:24 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 06:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's NOT the Constitution that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's NOT the law that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's the Office of Legal Counsels 'OPINION' that prevented Trumps indictment.

Listen to Muellers words again. He said OLC's opinion. He did not have the “OPTION” OF INDICTMENT.

Indictment for what?
05-30-2019 12:20 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #55
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 11:24 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(05-29-2019 08:01 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  If you start hearing the term that Mueller wont testify because he's camera shy (its already been posted by the left in this very forum, so the talking points have been distributed) its a lie.
The real reason he wont testify is because he doesnt want to state when he knew there was no collusion. Because he then doesnt want to explain why he didnt release his findings WAY sooner than he did. He kept the country on edge. (Well, at least he kept members of the left foaming at the mouth thinking Mueller was going to have Trump removed.)

So he should have done it before the election?

If he knew before the election, yes, absolutely.
05-30-2019 12:58 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 06:59 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's NOT the Constitution that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's NOT the law that prevented Trump from being indicted.

It's the Office of Legal Counsels 'OPINION' that prevented Trumps indictment.

Listen to Muellers words again. He said OLC's opinion. He did not have the “OPTION” OF INDICTMENT.
I call BS on Muellers explanation.
Mach...Do you really believe that if Mueller had found solid evidence of obstruction that he would have just remained silent about it? I don't believe for a second he would have missed the opportunity to bring down this President. He probably had suspicions and some evidence that he knew would not stand up in court...but..it is clear he had no hard evidence.
05-30-2019 05:43 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
His own words.

That joint statement above? Totally different than Mueller’s own words!

All that statement did yesterday was muddy waters. He did no service to the country with it. You can take issue with it from both sides.
05-30-2019 06:03 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
Well officially yesterday Bob Mueller is no longer a Special Counsel.. Today he's a private citizen and can be subpoenaed to testify under oath..
05-30-2019 06:15 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
(05-29-2019 03:56 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  I am not posting this to defend Trump - I am also not here to indict the guy either.


If I really sit back and look at this whole thing (and what Mueller had to say today) as objectively as I can, this is how I would summarize it:

- Mueller's primary objective was to see if the Trump campaign conspired with the Russians to rig the election. It sounds very much like Trump did not do so, however, there was plenty of compelling evidence that Russia did try to push things in one direction or the other. Without saying it - he basically said that you are all missing the point here - RUSSIA WAS F-ING with our election!!!!!! But it was not in the way the Dems had hoped they were.

- In the process of the investigation he came across many other wrongdoings. As a law man, I would think he would be compelled to pursue those things if he became aware of them, and it looks like he did that.

- It does seem that Trump was at the very least trying to divert Mueller and at the very most block Mueller from things. He has stated as clearly as anything that he said today, that his report includes his entire account of those actions and it was up to those who have the real power to act on those findings to do so if they choose.

- Nadler is really walking on a fine line and so is Pelosi. They are playing off of each other right now as each other's excuse to basically not actually do anything, but sound like they really are. It stuns me that ZERO dems have looked at the unredacted Mueller report and briefed their peers. They can see it, but for some reason they choose not to?




The dems are in a really bad spot here. There seems to be smoke but they cannot find the fire. If they go all in on impeachment and lose, their party will get pummeled in the next round of elections and the Republicans will railroad every bag of anti-democrat policy schidt they can, so that it will take a decade or more to reverse it if they every get the chance again.

I have said it before and I will continue to say it. I am a republican at heart (and by registration) but I will vote for the best candidate when someone proves to be one, regardless of party lines - if it is a tie, I go by party lines - even if I have to hold my nose while I pull that lever. It is my humble opinion that many many people vote the same way. The dems are fumbling on this in a big way. Trump is the second most unelectable person who has run for that office in my lifetime and as of right now, the dems still cannot put up somebody who can beat that?

Meh, maybe so but aside from Reagan I bet he's the single most effective POTUS in our lifetime. Almost every other one's primary objective seemed to be maintaining the status quo.
05-30-2019 06:18 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Why Mueller doesnt want to testify
Most effective President in the eyes of one party. He’s been disastrous for the deficit. What has been his greatest accomplishment? Hell list any accomplishment. You do realize the yield curve inverted on the 23rd of May. Always a sign of recession. The tax cuts poll negatively. He’s a con man at the best.
05-30-2019 06:25 AM
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