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California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
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Rube Dali Offline
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California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
https://www.si.com/college-football/2019...amateurism

A bill, which is likely to pass, would require schools receiving more than $10 million in media revenue(i.e. the Pac-12 quadruplets) to allow student-athletes to earn money outside athletics.
05-28-2019 10:05 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
Quote:O’Bannon showed that the NCAA and video game publisher Electronic Arts had collaborated on development of college basketball and college football video games that sold for $60 and that brazenly used the likenesses of college players, without their permission and without paying them.

The horror!
05-28-2019 10:58 PM
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Mav Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-28-2019 10:58 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
Quote:O’Bannon showed that the NCAA and video game publisher Electronic Arts had collaborated on development of college basketball and college football video games that sold for $60 and that brazenly used the likenesses of college players, without their permission and without paying them.

The horror!
I wonder what Michael McCann's opinion on the amateurism debate is. 07-coffee3
It's a little hard to respect publications like SI when they let high-school-newspaper garbage like this into their articles.
05-28-2019 11:36 PM
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DavidSt Online
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
California produced a bunch of idiotic politicians who do not know the differences between college amateurs to the pros who make money off the video games. College players=no money since they are amateurs and pro players=get paid for their likeness for the video games.
05-28-2019 11:53 PM
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Post: #5
RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-28-2019 11:36 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(05-28-2019 10:58 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
Quote:O’Bannon showed that the NCAA and video game publisher Electronic Arts had collaborated on development of college basketball and college football video games that sold for $60 and that brazenly used the likenesses of college players, without their permission and without paying them.

The horror!
I wonder what Michael McCann's opinion on the amateurism debate is. 07-coffee3
It's a little hard to respect publications like SI when they let high-school-newspaper garbage like this into their articles.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but what is incorrect about that quote from the article?
05-29-2019 02:36 PM
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Mav Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-29-2019 02:36 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-28-2019 11:36 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(05-28-2019 10:58 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
Quote:O’Bannon showed that the NCAA and video game publisher Electronic Arts had collaborated on development of college basketball and college football video games that sold for $60 and that brazenly used the likenesses of college players, without their permission and without paying them.

The horror!
I wonder what Michael McCann's opinion on the amateurism debate is. 07-coffee3
It's a little hard to respect publications like SI when they let high-school-newspaper garbage like this into their articles.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but what is incorrect about that quote from the article?
It's more how it was worded than what was said. You can say that without making it sound like some grand conspiracy to oppress the players, which it wasn't. Besides, it wasn't even that brazen. They'd give a roster number, choose from a few dozen stock faces, and maybe gear. No different than how historical teams get treated in pro sports game franchises, and honestly better than international teams get. I remember in NHL 2k5, 2K lifted rosters from the IIHF and jumbled the vowels around on the player names to mask who they are.

They're not exactly the only devs to do that sort of thing, either. Take World Basketball Manager, for instance:
[Image: A66BD7A19B578CF09CBE0D87D18D3BEC9A8A9B11]
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2019 08:50 PM by Mav.)
05-29-2019 08:47 PM
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Captain Bearcat Online
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-29-2019 08:47 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(05-29-2019 02:36 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-28-2019 11:36 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(05-28-2019 10:58 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
Quote:O’Bannon showed that the NCAA and video game publisher Electronic Arts had collaborated on development of college basketball and college football video games that sold for $60 and that brazenly used the likenesses of college players, without their permission and without paying them.

The horror!
I wonder what Michael McCann's opinion on the amateurism debate is. 07-coffee3
It's a little hard to respect publications like SI when they let high-school-newspaper garbage like this into their articles.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but what is incorrect about that quote from the article?
It's more how it was worded than what was said. You can say that without making it sound like some grand conspiracy to oppress the players, which it wasn't. Besides, it wasn't even that brazen. They'd give a roster number, choose from a few dozen stock faces, and maybe gear. No different than how historical teams get treated in pro sports game franchises, and honestly better than international teams get. I remember in NHL 2k5, 2K lifted rosters from the IIHF and jumbled the vowels around on the player names to mask who they are.

They're not exactly the only devs to do that sort of thing, either. Take World Basketball Manager, for instance:

Ok, that makes sense. I agree, it's written like yellow journalism. Thanks!
05-29-2019 10:39 PM
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-29-2019 08:47 PM)Mav Wrote:  It's more how it was worded than what was said. You can say that without making it sound like some grand conspiracy to oppress the players, which it wasn't. Besides, it wasn't even that brazen. They'd give a roster number, choose from a few dozen stock faces, and maybe gear. No different than how historical teams get treated in pro sports game franchises, and honestly better than international teams get. I remember in NHL 2k5, 2K lifted rosters from the IIHF and jumbled the vowels around on the player names to mask who they are.

They're not exactly the only devs to do that sort of thing, either. Take World Basketball Manager, for instance:
[Image: A66BD7A19B578CF09CBE0D87D18D3BEC9A8A9B11]


I remember long ago playing Super Play Action Football on SNES. I got to play as "Atlanta, Georgia" with gold helmets, navy tops, and white pants. I wonder who they had in mind.
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2019 04:38 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
05-30-2019 04:37 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #9
RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
Not sure how that is going to work. The state can make it legal for players to earn money outside of the school (it was never illegal as far as I know--it was just against NCAA rules). But passing the bill still doesnt make it conform to NCAA rules. Its like California passing a bill that makes it legal for pro-teams in California that compete in football to get two first round draft picks each year. The NFL isnt going to just grant the 49ers an extra #1 draft pick.
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2019 08:24 PM by Attackcoog.)
05-30-2019 08:23 PM
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-30-2019 08:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Not sure how that is going to work. The state can make it legal for players to earn money outside of the school (it was never illegal as far as I know--it was just against NCAA rules). But passing the bill still doesnt make it conform to NCAA rules. Its like California passing a bill that makes it legal for pro-teams in California that compete in football to get two first round draft picks each year. The NFL isnt going to just grant the 49ers an extra #1 draft pick.

I guess it would mean all the California schools would have to withdraw from the NCAA since their rules would violate California law?
05-31-2019 10:30 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-31-2019 10:30 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(05-30-2019 08:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Not sure how that is going to work. The state can make it legal for players to earn money outside of the school (it was never illegal as far as I know--it was just against NCAA rules). But passing the bill still doesnt make it conform to NCAA rules. Its like California passing a bill that makes it legal for pro-teams in California that compete in football to get two first round draft picks each year. The NFL isnt going to just grant the 49ers an extra #1 draft pick.

I guess it would mean all the California schools would have to withdraw from the NCAA since their rules would violate California law?

The rules wouldnt violate Cali law. The individual COULD earn money outside of sports, they just would be ineligible for NCAA play. Thus, the schools would likely have rules against players doing so. Its legal to get drunk---but employers can fire you if show up to work drunk or a athletic event can escort a fan out of the stadium if they wish.

The best example is weed is legal in Colorado, but its still a banned substance for NCAA players---even for Colorado St.
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2019 10:47 AM by Attackcoog.)
05-31-2019 10:45 AM
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Post: #12
RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-31-2019 10:30 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(05-30-2019 08:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Not sure how that is going to work. The state can make it legal for players to earn money outside of the school (it was never illegal as far as I know--it was just against NCAA rules). But passing the bill still doesnt make it conform to NCAA rules. Its like California passing a bill that makes it legal for pro-teams in California that compete in football to get two first round draft picks each year. The NFL isnt going to just grant the 49ers an extra #1 draft pick.

I guess it would mean all the California schools would have to withdraw from the NCAA since their rules would violate California law?

Let's hope that never happens because the population of California is literally higher than all of the other west coast states combined. They would be forced to follow suit if they want their athletic programs to survive.
05-31-2019 01:20 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(05-31-2019 10:45 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The rules wouldnt violate Cali law. The individual COULD earn money outside of sports, they just would be ineligible for NCAA play. Thus, the schools would likely have rules against players doing so.

That's not correct. Any rule from any school or organization that bars college athletes from receiving compensation for their name, image, or likeness would be in direct violation of state law. That means the California colleges would be legally obligated to ignore NCAA bylaws on the matter.

From the bill as it passed in the California Senate:

Quote:67456. (a) (1) A postsecondary educational institution shall not uphold any rule, requirement, standard, or other limitation that prevents a student of that institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness. Earning compensation from the use of a student’s name, image, or likeness shall not affect the student’s scholarship eligibility.

(2) An athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics, including, but not limited to, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, shall not prevent a student of a postsecondary educational institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness.

In effect, California is threatening the NCAA with an ultimatum; either allow athletes to make money off themselves, or bar the California schools from competition.
06-01-2019 11:47 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(06-01-2019 11:47 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-31-2019 10:45 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The rules wouldnt violate Cali law. The individual COULD earn money outside of sports, they just would be ineligible for NCAA play. Thus, the schools would likely have rules against players doing so.

That's not correct. Any rule from any school or organization that bars college athletes from receiving compensation for their name, image, or likeness would be in direct violation of state law. That means the California colleges would be legally obligated to ignore NCAA bylaws on the matter.

From the bill as it passed in the California Senate:

Quote:67456. (a) (1) A postsecondary educational institution shall not uphold any rule, requirement, standard, or other limitation that prevents a student of that institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness. Earning compensation from the use of a student’s name, image, or likeness shall not affect the student’s scholarship eligibility.

(2) An athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics, including, but not limited to, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, shall not prevent a student of a postsecondary educational institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness.

In effect, California is threatening the NCAA with an ultimatum; either allow athletes to make money off themselves, or bar the California schools from competition.

You are correct. I had not seen the actual language until just now. The law doesnt make it legal to earn money outside of athletics---its language actually makes it ILLEGAL to prevent a player from earning money outside of athletics. Sounds like a game of chicken. Essentially, the NCAA has to get half its membership on the same page as California law by 2023 or the California schools become huge losers as their players would be reasonably barred from NCAA competition due to a rules violation that gives them an unfair recruiting advantage (basically the same thing SMU got the death penalty for). Thats a lot of cat hearding to get done in a fairly short period of time.

I betcha that law fails to pass. Very little to gain and lots to lose. Unless your Don Quijote---the risk vs the reward is just not there any politician. That said, the final disposition of the Alston case may make something like that the law of the land anyway. In that case, the California legislators my get bailed out by the courts.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2019 02:28 PM by Attackcoog.)
06-01-2019 02:19 PM
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Rube Dali Offline
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(06-01-2019 02:19 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-01-2019 11:47 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-31-2019 10:45 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The rules wouldnt violate Cali law. The individual COULD earn money outside of sports, they just would be ineligible for NCAA play. Thus, the schools would likely have rules against players doing so.

That's not correct. Any rule from any school or organization that bars college athletes from receiving compensation for their name, image, or likeness would be in direct violation of state law. That means the California colleges would be legally obligated to ignore NCAA bylaws on the matter.

From the bill as it passed in the California Senate:

Quote:67456. (a) (1) A postsecondary educational institution shall not uphold any rule, requirement, standard, or other limitation that prevents a student of that institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness. Earning compensation from the use of a student’s name, image, or likeness shall not affect the student’s scholarship eligibility.

(2) An athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics, including, but not limited to, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, shall not prevent a student of a postsecondary educational institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness.

In effect, California is threatening the NCAA with an ultimatum; either allow athletes to make money off themselves, or bar the California schools from competition.

You are correct. I had not seen the actual language until just now. The law doesnt make it legal to earn money outside of athletics---its language actually makes it ILLEGAL to prevent a player from earning money outside of athletics. Sounds like a game of chicken. Essentially, the NCAA has to get half its membership on the same page as California law by 2023 or the California schools become huge losers as their players would be reasonably barred from NCAA competition due to a rules violation that gives them an unfair recruiting advantage (basically the same thing SMU got the death penalty for). Thats a lot of cat hearding to get done in a fairly short period of time.

I betcha that law fails to pass. Very little to gain and lots to lose. Unless your Don Quijote---the risk vs the reward is just not there any politician. That said, the final disposition of the Alston case may make something like that the law of the land anyway. In that case, the California legislators my get bailed out by the courts.
You might be wrong on that:
Quote:On Wednesday, the bill passed the California Senate by a decisive vote of 31 to 5. While the five “no” votes were all Republicans, several other Republican senators voted “aye,” which suggests the bill has bipartisan support. The bill will now be considered by the California Assembly, which has 61 Democrats and 19 Republicans. If it passes there, the bill would head to California Governor Gavin Newsom, who is a Democrat, for his signature. The trajectory of the bill is thus favorable. It appears the NCAA has not aggressively lobbied against the bill, or if such lobbying has occurred, it hasn’t (yet) been very persuasive.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2019 04:01 PM by Rube Dali.)
06-01-2019 04:00 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Online
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(06-01-2019 02:19 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-01-2019 11:47 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-31-2019 10:45 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The rules wouldnt violate Cali law. The individual COULD earn money outside of sports, they just would be ineligible for NCAA play. Thus, the schools would likely have rules against players doing so.

That's not correct. Any rule from any school or organization that bars college athletes from receiving compensation for their name, image, or likeness would be in direct violation of state law. That means the California colleges would be legally obligated to ignore NCAA bylaws on the matter.

From the bill as it passed in the California Senate:

Quote:67456. (a) (1) A postsecondary educational institution shall not uphold any rule, requirement, standard, or other limitation that prevents a student of that institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness. Earning compensation from the use of a student’s name, image, or likeness shall not affect the student’s scholarship eligibility.

(2) An athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics, including, but not limited to, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, shall not prevent a student of a postsecondary educational institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness.

In effect, California is threatening the NCAA with an ultimatum; either allow athletes to make money off themselves, or bar the California schools from competition.

You are correct. I had not seen the actual language until just now. The law doesnt make it legal to earn money outside of athletics---its language actually makes it ILLEGAL to prevent a player from earning money outside of athletics. Sounds like a game of chicken. Essentially, the NCAA has to get half its membership on the same page as California law by 2023 or the California schools become huge losers as their players would be reasonably barred from NCAA competition due to a rules violation that gives them an unfair recruiting advantage (basically the same thing SMU got the death penalty for). Thats a lot of cat hearding to get done in a fairly short period of time.

I betcha that law fails to pass. Very little to gain and lots to lose. Unless your Don Quijote---the risk vs the reward is just not there any politician. That said, the final disposition of the Alston case may make something like that the law of the land anyway. In that case, the California legislators my get bailed out by the courts.

https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/news/20190522...y-play-act

It passed 31-4 in the state senate. It is going to get signed into law.

“SB 206 doesn’t require colleges to pay student athletes or incur any other costs. Instead, it will help relieve the financial pressure on young athletes to quit school and turn pro before they’ve completed their degrees.”

“The California Senate has spoken loud and clear: Student athletes should enjoy the same right as all other students — to earn income from their talent. SB 206 gives our college athletes the same financial opportunity afforded to Olympic athletes.”

It is going to be very hard for the NCAA to argue against this law. It is not unreasonable. It will go into effect in three years. That should give the NCAA plenty of time to respond to this law.
06-01-2019 04:10 PM
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RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
So while the California schools would have to leave the NCAA, they would also gain a huge recruiting advantage. All the top players would want to play in.California where they could profit from their likeness. That alone would probably be enough to get the NCAA to cave.
06-01-2019 04:10 PM
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Post: #18
RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(06-01-2019 04:10 PM)Chappy Wrote:  So while the California schools would have to leave the NCAA, they would also gain a huge recruiting advantage. All the top players would want to play in.California where they could profit from their likeness. That alone would probably be enough to get the NCAA to cave.
The NCAA will cave anyway since dealing out indefinite postseason bans to the PAC-12's California contingent would be lunacy on their part. Imagine if USC football or UCLA basketball got their act together and became national championship contenders, only to not be eligible thanks to this law. Fans would revolt, you'd end up with split championships in the polls (which the NCAA is doing everything in its power to end) and the sport itself would suffer. That's not even mentioning how much the PAC-12 California schools dominate certain Olympic sports. They might as well just drop men's water polo to club status if this happens.

Part of me wonders if the NCAA isn't vocally fighting this because they found their "out" when it comes to convincing university presidents and ADs that it has to be this way. California's legislature gets to play bad cop for them and they get to put an end to this PR nightmare and get back to sports.
06-01-2019 04:19 PM
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Post: #19
RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(06-01-2019 04:10 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(06-01-2019 02:19 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-01-2019 11:47 AM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-31-2019 10:45 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The rules wouldnt violate Cali law. The individual COULD earn money outside of sports, they just would be ineligible for NCAA play. Thus, the schools would likely have rules against players doing so.

That's not correct. Any rule from any school or organization that bars college athletes from receiving compensation for their name, image, or likeness would be in direct violation of state law. That means the California colleges would be legally obligated to ignore NCAA bylaws on the matter.

From the bill as it passed in the California Senate:

Quote:67456. (a) (1) A postsecondary educational institution shall not uphold any rule, requirement, standard, or other limitation that prevents a student of that institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness. Earning compensation from the use of a student’s name, image, or likeness shall not affect the student’s scholarship eligibility.

(2) An athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics, including, but not limited to, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, shall not prevent a student of a postsecondary educational institution participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness.

In effect, California is threatening the NCAA with an ultimatum; either allow athletes to make money off themselves, or bar the California schools from competition.

You are correct. I had not seen the actual language until just now. The law doesnt make it legal to earn money outside of athletics---its language actually makes it ILLEGAL to prevent a player from earning money outside of athletics. Sounds like a game of chicken. Essentially, the NCAA has to get half its membership on the same page as California law by 2023 or the California schools become huge losers as their players would be reasonably barred from NCAA competition due to a rules violation that gives them an unfair recruiting advantage (basically the same thing SMU got the death penalty for). Thats a lot of cat hearding to get done in a fairly short period of time.

I betcha that law fails to pass. Very little to gain and lots to lose. Unless your Don Quijote---the risk vs the reward is just not there any politician. That said, the final disposition of the Alston case may make something like that the law of the land anyway. In that case, the California legislators my get bailed out by the courts.

https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/news/20190522...y-play-act

It passed 31-4 in the state senate. It is going to get signed into law.

“SB 206 doesn’t require colleges to pay student athletes or incur any other costs. Instead, it will help relieve the financial pressure on young athletes to quit school and turn pro before they’ve completed their degrees.”

“The California Senate has spoken loud and clear: Student athletes should enjoy the same right as all other students — to earn income from their talent. SB 206 gives our college athletes the same financial opportunity afforded to Olympic athletes.”

It is going to be very hard for the NCAA to argue against this law. It is not unreasonable. It will go into effect in three years. That should give the NCAA plenty of time to respond to this law.

Go California!
06-01-2019 04:35 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #20
RE: California challenging NCAA's amateurism rules
(06-01-2019 02:19 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I betcha that law fails to pass. Very little to gain and lots to lose. Unless your Don Quijote---the risk vs the reward is just not there any politician. That said, the final disposition of the Alston case may make something like that the law of the land anyway. In that case, the California legislators my get bailed out by the courts.

I guess we'll see, but I think this gets through committee in the Assembly and gets signed by Newsom by the end of the legislative year in September. In the grand scheme of things, it's pretty uncontroversial in a state like California where the NCAA's definition of amateurism is more likely to be viewed as exploitative. The bill had significant bipartisan support in the State Senate, and I would expect the same in the Assembly where the party ratios are similar.

If anything, this bill going into law would push the NCAA to act decisively, because standing their ground would probably be the end of the NCAA. They've taken a beating in the courts, as you mention, and there's no sign that will abate anytime soon (I think O'Bannon makes this a pretty straightforward ruling for any judge). And if they decide not to go to court, what is their alternative? They can't create a new division to skate away from this; the law would apply to every college in California. They'd have to kick every last California school out of the NCAA, which likely triggers the long-awaited P5 split that takes a lot of the prestige members with them to whatever the new sanctioning body would be.

Personally, I think what the bill is proposing is inevitable. There's a similar one in the Ways & Means Committee at the federal level, and the NCAA even launched a working group on this a few weeks ago. IMO, that was them bracing for this change.
06-01-2019 05:06 PM
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