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Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
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Marshall Wythe Offline
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Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
As a fan of both schools, I have noticed how similar Yale's and W&M's basketball teams have been -- until recently. I thought a comparison would be interesting.

As many of you know, I took a 4 year detour to Yale before finding my tribe at William & Mary Law School. I don't know which basketball team was worse in my college years -- Yale's Dick Kuchen was W&M's Chuck Swenson.

But then both school's had a basketball renaissance in the 2000s. Both schools fight for similar, brainy recruits. Both teams were led by energetic, classy, and successful coaches (James Jones and Tony Shaver).

In 2015, Yale lost a heartbreaker to its hated rival, Harvard, in the first ever Ivy League tournament championship game. Despite the fact that Yale was 22-10 overall (11-3 in the Ivy League), it did not receive a single postseason invite (the NIT said it had already made its decisions or something).

Even worse, that year marked the 4th consecutive year that Harvard went to the NCAA tournament (while Yale still hadn't been since 1962). Many alums (myself included) thought it might be time for a new coach to get us over the hump. After 16 years at the helm, Jones just couldn't seem to get the job done (even though he was the most successful coach Yale had had in decades -- some NIT wins, CIT runner up, two Rhodes Scholars).

But the AD stuck with him, and the next year they did get over the hump -- beating Baylor in the tournament and coming oh so close to beating Duke in the next round. They went to the tournament again this past year (beating Harvard in the championship game).

Recently, Yale hired a young, energetic, female AD to take over from an older, tall, male AD who did much to improve Yale's facilities and overall athletic success. She ruffled some feathers (most recently by firing a beloved, 87 year old fencing coach).

Coach Jones' name later came up as a possible successor for Shaver. He would have been an outstanding choice. But, the Yale AD locked him up this Spring with a contract extension through 2026.

Now, I know these two situations are not exactly comparing apples to apples. But, after closely watching both schools, I can't help but say that sticking with the successful, classy guy paid off for Yale.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2019 08:25 AM by Marshall Wythe.)
05-20-2019 08:07 AM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
A great post with appropriate parallels. Had someone from another school posted it I would expect taunting penalty, as it is I'll just have a bourbon tonight and try to forget what might have been and focus on hopes for the future of Tribe basketball and our former coaching staff and their families who were inexplicably treated horribly by our alma mater.
05-20-2019 01:09 PM
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TribeFan1983 Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-20-2019 08:07 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  As a fan of both schools, I have noticed how similar Yale's and W&M's basketball teams have been -- until recently. I thought a comparison would be interesting.

As many of you know, I took a 4 year detour to Yale before finding my tribe at William & Mary Law School. I don't know which basketball team was worse in my college years -- Yale's Dick Kuchen was W&M's Chuck Swenson.

But then both school's had a basketball renaissance in the 2000s. Both schools fight for similar, brainy recruits. Both teams were led by energetic, classy, and successful coaches (James Jones and Tony Shaver).

In 2015, Yale lost a heartbreaker to its hated rival, Harvard, in the first ever Ivy League tournament championship game. Despite the fact that Yale was 22-10 overall (11-3 in the Ivy League), it did not receive a single postseason invite (the NIT said it had already made its decisions or something).

Even worse, that year marked the 4th consecutive year that Harvard went to the NCAA tournament (while Yale still hadn't been since 1962). Many alums (myself included) thought it might be time for a new coach to get us over the hump. After 16 years at the helm, Jones just couldn't seem to get the job done (even though he was the most successful coach Yale had had in decades -- some NIT wins, CIT runner up, two Rhodes Scholars).

But the AD stuck with him, and the next year they did get over the hump -- beating Baylor in the tournament and coming oh so close to beating Duke in the next round. They went to the tournament again this past year (beating Harvard in the championship game).

Recently, Yale hired a young, energetic, female AD to take over from an older, tall, male AD who did much to improve Yale's facilities and overall athletic success. She ruffled some feathers (most recently by firing a beloved, 87 year old fencing coach).

Coach Jones' name later came up as a possible successor for Shaver. He would have been an outstanding choice. But, the Yale AD locked him up this Spring with a contract extension through 2026.

Now, I know these two situations are not exactly comparing apples to apples. But, after closely watching both schools, I can't help but say that sticking with the successful, classy guy paid off for Yale.


I have no doubt Shaver is a classy guy, but you can't consider him a "successful" coach at W&M by any reasonable measure. His record during 16 years here was just 226-268 (.457). In 20 years at Yale, James Jones went 310–273 (.532). He came in 1st in the Ivy League 4x, went to the NCAA tournament twice (winning a game) and made the NIT once (also winning a game). Hard as it is for you folks to hear, letting Tony go was a completely justifiable move.
05-20-2019 08:07 PM
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Blow Gym rat Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
And you guys are nothing at all like Yale. Yale is just another Purdue.
05-20-2019 08:12 PM
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Rocco Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-20-2019 08:07 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(05-20-2019 08:07 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  As a fan of both schools, I have noticed how similar Yale's and W&M's basketball teams have been -- until recently. I thought a comparison would be interesting.

As many of you know, I took a 4 year detour to Yale before finding my tribe at William & Mary Law School. I don't know which basketball team was worse in my college years -- Yale's Dick Kuchen was W&M's Chuck Swenson.

But then both school's had a basketball renaissance in the 2000s. Both schools fight for similar, brainy recruits. Both teams were led by energetic, classy, and successful coaches (James Jones and Tony Shaver).

In 2015, Yale lost a heartbreaker to its hated rival, Harvard, in the first ever Ivy League tournament championship game. Despite the fact that Yale was 22-10 overall (11-3 in the Ivy League), it did not receive a single postseason invite (the NIT said it had already made its decisions or something).

Even worse, that year marked the 4th consecutive year that Harvard went to the NCAA tournament (while Yale still hadn't been since 1962). Many alums (myself included) thought it might be time for a new coach to get us over the hump. After 16 years at the helm, Jones just couldn't seem to get the job done (even though he was the most successful coach Yale had had in decades -- some NIT wins, CIT runner up, two Rhodes Scholars).

But the AD stuck with him, and the next year they did get over the hump -- beating Baylor in the tournament and coming oh so close to beating Duke in the next round. They went to the tournament again this past year (beating Harvard in the championship game).

Recently, Yale hired a young, energetic, female AD to take over from an older, tall, male AD who did much to improve Yale's facilities and overall athletic success. She ruffled some feathers (most recently by firing a beloved, 87 year old fencing coach).

Coach Jones' name later came up as a possible successor for Shaver. He would have been an outstanding choice. But, the Yale AD locked him up this Spring with a contract extension through 2026.

Now, I know these two situations are not exactly comparing apples to apples. But, after closely watching both schools, I can't help but say that sticking with the successful, classy guy paid off for Yale.


I have no doubt Shaver is a classy guy, but you can't consider him a "successful" coach at W&M by any reasonable measure. His record during 16 years here was just 226-268 (.457). In 20 years at Yale, James Jones went 310–273 (.532). He came in 1st in the Ivy League 4x, went to the NCAA tournament twice (winning a game) and made the NIT once (also winning a game). Hard as it is for you folks to hear, letting Tony go was a completely justifiable move.

It's already been explained in pain-staking detail why really only 14 of those 268 losses count.
05-20-2019 08:14 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
If you guys think that Tony Shaver, coaching Yale, would have a worse record than Coach Jones, or that Coach Jones, coaching W&M, would have a better record than Tony Shaver, I’ll have what you’re smoking / drinking.

It does explain why you, and the two people responsible for this decision, can’t fathom / comprehend my anger, disgust, and feeling of shame for the school.
05-20-2019 08:58 PM
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Tribeguy1960 Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
Comparing Shaver to Jones is laughable. Shaver led this past team with a potential NBA Draft pick, UNC player, UCF player, and Northwestern player to a 14-17 record and an embarrassing first round tournament loss. Not to mention the overall career losing record by a decent margin. James Jones is remarkably better than Tony Shaver was.
05-20-2019 09:09 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-20-2019 08:58 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If you guys think that Tony Shaver, coaching Yale, would have a worse record than Coach Jones, or that Coach Jones, coaching W&M, would have a better record than Tony Shaver, I’ll have what you’re smoking / drinking.

It does explain why you, and the two people responsible for this decision, can’t fathom / comprehend my anger, disgust, and feeling of shame for the school.

I like Shaver, but I honestly disagree. Yale had 7 consecutive losing seasons, and was 4-22 the year before Jones got there. Like W&M, it's a tough place to recruit at, and has strict academic standards. Basically 0 basketball history. Yale has finished in the top half of the Ivy for 19 years in a row (All but Jones' first year there), and Jones has brought their historical record to over .500. Multiple NCAA tournament births, and a win in the big dance.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2019 09:22 PM by TDenverFan.)
05-20-2019 09:21 PM
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Tribewins Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
Wow, last two posters tribe1960 and Denver are spot on. NJ Alum, you asked the question and these two nailed it! If you’re sincere in your question you should respect their responses. Otherwise you’re simply posting questions and only accepting one sided answers to support your position.

Unfortunately so many on this board post in a “black and white” or “either/or” scenario. I.E. you’re pro Shaver so against Huge or Pro Huge therefore against Shaver.

Objectively, a coach who’s winning percentage is sub 0.500 after a large sample size of 16 seasons/500 games should be let go. Having said that, Huge did botch the firing and coaching search and hiring. So the pro Shaver people then lean on Huge’s incompetence, etc. sure that happened, but coaches livelihood is there record and achievements. Tony has 16 years! He was sub 0.500 and no CAA tourney titles and NCAA appearances.

Pro Shavers (and here’s where I suggest you stop drinking the koolaid) say “the dance is dirty”, let’s damn the dance! Let’s pause and ask ourselves this, is the dance dirty? (No). Are there some dirty players in the dance? (Yes). Who are these players? I submit (and facts back it up) the dirty players are the teams that in the power 5 conferences that haven’t been to the top in awhile and are trying to get their (LSU, LOUISVILLE, etc). NOT the mid major teams that CHERISH March Madness as a time to win their conference tourney and get a shot at the dance legitimately!

So out of a field of 64+, yes you may have a handful of bad eggs. But the majority of the field are hard working teams that get their on merit.

Getting back to the original point. I believe it was time to move on and Huge botched the process as well. We need to support coach Fischer now!

And in other news, watch out for Elon in the next couple years. Word has it they landed perhaps the best kept secret in CAA recruiting....just saying :)
05-20-2019 11:36 PM
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Kaplankrazies Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
If W&M played in the Ivy League, Shaver would not have been a sub-.500 coach. The CAA got multiple at-large bids and final 4 berths during the first half of his tenure and it’s ridiculous to think we should’ve been consistently finishing over .500 vs those teams. Stripping this context from your analysis is lazy and I hope you don’t judge our new coach so superficially after the team wins 4 games this year.
05-21-2019 04:57 AM
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Marshall Wythe Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 04:57 AM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  If W&M played in the Ivy League, Shaver would not have been a sub-.500 coach. The CAA got multiple at-large bids and final 4 berths during the first half of his tenure and it’s ridiculous to think we should’ve been consistently finishing over .500 vs those teams. Stripping this context from your analysis is lazy and I hope you don’t judge our new coach so superficially after the team wins 4 games this year.

I have to say that Yale does have the advantage of competing in a conference with very similar, peer institutions. Coaching W&M in the CAA is a much more difficult proposition (imho).
05-21-2019 09:14 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
James Jones:

2000- first year (D-1)
2002- reg season tie for first ... NIT
2012- CIT
2014- CIT
2015- reg season tie for first ... lost playoff game
2016- reg season champ ... auto bid ... NCAA second round
2019- reg season tie for first ... won two playoff games ... NCAA

Tony Shaver:

1987- first year (D-3)
1989- Sweet 16
1992- reg season first ... Sweet 16
1994- Sweet 16
1995- reg season first ... Elite 8
1997- First Round
1998- reg season tie for first ... Sweet 16
1999- reg season first ... Runner-up
2000- reg season first ... Second round
2001- reg season tie for first ... Second round
2002- Second round
2003- reg season tie for first ... Final Four

2004- first year (D-1)
2008- won three playoff games, lost one
2010- won two playoff games, lost one ... NIT
2014- won two playoff games, lost one
2015- reg. season tie for first ... won two playoff games, lost one ...NIT

At W&M, Tony Shaver did not coach in an eight team league, unlike Yale.

At W&M, Tony Shaver did not have an automatic bid associated with a regular season championship available to him, unlike Yale.

At W&M, Tony Shaver had to win 3-4 four games in the CAA tourney to get the bid, unlike Yale which only has to win two in the modern era.

Most importantly ... :-) ... do ya think Coach Jones and his program benefited from the 2012 and 2014 CIT bids which most on here scorn?

Keep smearing the best men's basketball coach that W&M has ever had ... my feelings of disgust aren't limited to the two people who drove Tony and his staff out of town.
05-21-2019 09:15 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
And ... and ...

Yale's 2019 ticket to the Dance ...

Where was the Ivy League tournament held?

Did Tony EVER ... EVER ... have that opportunity?

Can't make this stuff up!
05-21-2019 09:20 AM
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Marshall Wythe Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 09:20 AM)nj alum Wrote:  And ... and ...

Yale's 2019 ticket to the Dance ...

Where was the Ivy League tournament held?

Did Tony EVER ... EVER ... have that opportunity?

Can't make this stuff up!

I will add that the thoughts of getting a new coach at Yale occurred after his 16th year at the helm - before he got over these humps. And even if I agreed that Shaver was never going to get it done, it's tough for me to believe that an unproven assistant from George Mason (more power to him, but still...) with less talented players is going to get it done.

I know this comparison is not definitive about anything, but I thought it would be a good source of discussion and a different way for us to share our frustrations in a less repetitive fashion.
05-21-2019 09:30 AM
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TribeFan1983 Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 09:20 AM)nj alum Wrote:  And ... and ...

Yale's 2019 ticket to the Dance ...

Where was the Ivy League tournament held?

Did Tony EVER ... EVER ... have that opportunity?

Can't make this stuff up!

Plus, the sun was in Tony's eyes during the last 1:30 of the CAA championship game vs. Delaware in 2014. That was some (not so) great coaching down the stretch.
05-21-2019 09:36 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
MW-

Your point was well-made ... I got your point ... I agreed with it.

Posts #3 and #8 mention Yale's two NCCA bids under Coach Jones.

One bid was when the Ivies awarded the bid to the regular season champ. The CAA has never done that, and that "route" was never available to Tony Shaver.

The second bid was one the Ivies awarded by holding the tournament on Yale's home court, and requiring Yale to win two games. Likewise, the CAA has never done that, and that "route" was never available to Tony Shaver.

So, to use Yale's two bids as an indication that Tony was less than a stellar coach is disingenuous, IMO.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2019 09:57 AM by nj alum.)
05-21-2019 09:41 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 09:36 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:20 AM)nj alum Wrote:  And ... and ...

Yale's 2019 ticket to the Dance ...

Where was the Ivy League tournament held?

Did Tony EVER ... EVER ... have that opportunity?

Can't make this stuff up!

Plus, the sun was in Tony's eyes during the last 1:30 of the CAA championship game vs. Delaware in 2014. That was some (not so) great coaching down the stretch.

You may want to delete this post ... not a good look.
05-21-2019 09:44 AM
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zablenoise Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 09:44 AM)nj alum Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:36 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:20 AM)nj alum Wrote:  And ... and ...

Yale's 2019 ticket to the Dance ...

Where was the Ivy League tournament held?

Did Tony EVER ... EVER ... have that opportunity?

Can't make this stuff up!

Plus, the sun was in Tony's eyes during the last 1:30 of the CAA championship game vs. Delaware in 2014. That was some (not so) great coaching down the stretch.

You may want to delete this post ... not a good look.

I think Tony's coaching is right at the heart of the disagreement.

Despite all he did for the program, some of us (me included) thought Tony's tactics and management were holding the team back. The 2014 Championship was an example. The tourney game this year was an example. There are numerous others.

Coming out of this year the only reason I wanted to keep Tony on was out of "fairness". I thought he deserved one last ride. But I thought on merit Huge was justified. That was also assuming she understood what the coaching market looked like and would be able to improve the program. Clearly that didn't happen. Not a knock on Dane but you can't say we're better off now.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
05-21-2019 10:17 AM
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Kaplankrazies Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 09:14 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 04:57 AM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  If W&M played in the Ivy League, Shaver would not have been a sub-.500 coach. The CAA got multiple at-large bids and final 4 berths during the first half of his tenure and it’s ridiculous to think we should’ve been consistently finishing over .500 vs those teams. Stripping this context from your analysis is lazy and I hope you don’t judge our new coach so superficially after the team wins 4 games this year.

I have to say that Yale does have the advantage of competing in a conference with very similar, peer institutions. Coaching W&M in the CAA is a much more difficult proposition (imho).
Appreciate this context as you follow both programs. For the record, my post was not directed towards you but instead the ‘he was a sub.500 coach’ responses.
05-21-2019 10:27 AM
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Kaplankrazies Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 10:17 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:44 AM)nj alum Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:36 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 09:20 AM)nj alum Wrote:  And ... and ...

Yale's 2019 ticket to the Dance ...

Where was the Ivy League tournament held?

Did Tony EVER ... EVER ... have that opportunity?

Can't make this stuff up!

Plus, the sun was in Tony's eyes during the last 1:30 of the CAA championship game vs. Delaware in 2014. That was some (not so) great coaching down the stretch.

You may want to delete this post ... not a good look.

I think Tony's coaching is right at the heart of the disagreement.

Despite all he did for the program, some of us (me included) thought Tony's tactics and management were holding the team back. The 2014 Championship was an example. The tourney game this year was an example. There are numerous others.

Coming out of this year the only reason I wanted to keep Tony on was out of "fairness". I thought he deserved one last ride. But I thought on merit Huge was justified. That was also assuming she understood what the coaching market looked like and would be able to improve the program. Clearly that didn't happen. Not a knock on Dane but you can't say we're better off now.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
So you want Huge to read the market but don’t hold yourself to the same standard? The question should be is Shaver a better coach and program leader than our next option. It’s obvious we aren’t a basketball hotbed and attractive candidates won’t be interested in W&M. Shaver clearly is better than the next best option when you look at the situation as a whole(including the players he brought in and retained) and a personal tactical gripe doesn’t outweigh that.
05-21-2019 10:33 AM
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