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Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
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ken d Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
The solution is clear. The P5 need to pull out of the FBS and establish their own organization. Then no more access slot for the G5, which they only rarely deserve anyway. The press release can read:

P5 to G5: Pound sand!
05-14-2019 10:50 AM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.
05-14-2019 10:53 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 11:46 AM by quo vadis.)
05-14-2019 11:45 AM
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Post: #44
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
That's were you wrong Que,
Cooley matrix, NCAA sanctioned computer program ranked UFC #1.
No different than Bir news naming Ala national champs
PSU counts NY post national championships
And do you know why newspaper's are naming NC
To sell more papers
UFC earned their sliver, let them enjoy it
It's not hurting anything
05-14-2019 11:59 AM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

I completely understand how it's rigged. Doesn't change the point.
05-14-2019 12:06 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship

That's also true of the "process" in FBS football. Every school that has chosen to be in FBS instead of another division or subdivision has agreed to the process, just like everyone who chooses to buy a vehicle with two wheel drive instead of four wheel drive has, by choosing not to buy a 4WD vehicle, agreed that their vehicle doesn't have 4WD. FCS is the SUV with a 4-wheel-drive playoff. FBS is the sports car with top speed of 155 mph that only has rear wheel drive (and might have no 2nd row of seating), but lots of people think it's cool to drive a sports car and knowingly accept the trade-off of not having 4 wheel drive.
05-14-2019 12:43 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

You are confusing "a championship" with "the championship". If Western Michigan goes undefeated, then they have won a championship - the MAC championship. Because that is the league they compete in. They don't win an FBS championship because that isn't a league that they - or anyone else - competes in.

Everybody in the FBS is there because they chose to play in a subdivision that doesn't have a championship tournament. All 130 schools decided that they would rather have a post-season featuring bowl (exhibition) games than have a division wide championship tournament.

Clearly, not all of their fans like that decision. Many would like to have the vicarious thrill of saying they were playing for a "national" championship. And, truth be told, they also would like the P5 conferences to gift them with a share of the money from the CFP just like the gift they get from the NCAA basketball tournament. Take away that money and most would opt to play at a level where they could properly compete.
05-15-2019 07:22 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-14-2019 12:06 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

I completely understand how it's rigged. Doesn't change the point.

There is a system that all the conferences and schools have agreed to. You can argue that it's a lousy system and should be changed, but that doesn't make it rigged.

One evidence of rigging would surely be the quality of the teams the system picks as champ. E.g., right now in the news there are the stories of college selection processes that were 'rigged' via bribery and corruption, whereby rich parents paid bribes to get their kids in to elite schools. That's a case of rigging, and the result is clear - unqualified students got admitted ahead of better-qualified ones.

But, I think one can make a good case that the CFP produces a national champion that is at least as accurate as does the NCAA tournament. E.g., this past year, I have much more confidence that Clemson was the "true" (i.e., known only to God) best football team than I have that Virginia was the "true" best basketball team.

I think if we compared most years, we'd see that the CFP champ stacks up nicely to the NCAA hoops champ or the winners of other major sports such as MLB, NFL, etc.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 07:55 AM by quo vadis.)
05-15-2019 07:53 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

Its still kind of a pretend title. Until the 1990's they literally prefaced the words "national championship" with the word "mythical". Now we have something thats less mythical---but it clearly excludes any possible access by half the teams in the division---so its still an imperfect vestige of the old bowl system that may or may not have #1 and #2 play each other in the final game of the year. Until every team begins the year with a realistic path to the playoff, it wont really be totally legit. Instead of having polls and bowl committees create the playoff---we now have largely eliminated the public sector national polls and gone to a selection committee made up of the same kind of guys that make up bowl committees. Its kinda more of the same. Right now its a bit like the early Bowl Coalition where the Rose Bowl didnt participate (meaning the system could never match #1 and #2 if either were in the Big10 or Pac12). Now, all the power conferences are included, but that still excludes over half the teams in the division. As long has a huge portion of the division is completely frozen out, its cant be considered completely legit FBS champion--regardless of what its defenders say. Virtually every national sports writer alive knows that no G5 has a chance to get into the playoff. It is what it is. Are we really going to use an "agreement" signed with essentially a gun to their head as proof of legitimacy? C'mon. It is what it is.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 10:43 AM by Attackcoog.)
05-15-2019 10:33 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 10:33 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 12:54 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Any undefeated team can put a banner as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

Its still kind of a pretend title. Until the 1990's they literally prefaced the words "national championship" with the word "mythical". Now we have something thats less mythical---but it clearly excludes any possible access by half the teams in the division---so its still an imperfect vestige of the old bowl system that may or may not have #1 and #2 play each other in the final game of the year. Until every team begins the year with a realistic path to the playoff, it wont really be totally legit. Instead of having polls and bowl committees create the playoff---we now have largely eliminated the public sector national polls and gone to a selection committee made up of the same kind of guys that make up bowl committees. Its kinda more of the same. Right now its a bit like the early Bowl Coalition where the Rose Bowl didnt participate (meaning the system could never match #1 and #2 if either were in the Big10 or Pac12). Now, all the power conferences are included, but that still excludes over half the teams in the division. As long has a huge portion of the division is completely frozen out, its cant be considered completely legit FBS champion--regardless of what its defenders say. Virtually every national sports writer alive knows that no G5 has a chance to get into the playoff. It is what it is. Are we really going to use an "agreement" signed with essentially a gun to their head as proof of legitimacy? C'mon. It is what it is.

Until the 1990s, the title was called "mythical" by the media, because it was mythical - the schools themselves did not recognize any process or entity as conferring a national title, even though informally, schools did recognize the AP and Coaches polls as conferring a title, and celebrated them as such.

Since then, a formal agreed-on system has been put in place by all the FBS conferences to crown a champion.

I mean, the CFP agreement is a fact.

If you want to talk informally, there's also no basis for calling the title "pretend", because even if one agrees that the G5 is excluded (I don't, but if), it only excludes those schools and conferences from which the actual national champion *never* comes. I mean, if you look back over the history of college football, the only time a non-P5 has been the best team was BYU, 35 years ago. Before that, you have to go back basically forever, because e.g. when teams like Army won the title in the 1940s, they were a power program of that era.

It's like if the NCAA tournament suddenly excluded the Sun Belt, MAC, MWC, etc. from the tournament. That wouldn't make the tournament a "pretend" title because schools from those schools literally never are the best anyway. No "non-power" school has ever won the NCAA hoops tournament. Ever.

So there's nothing worth mentioning being excluded. Proof of this is your claim that the G5 signed the CFP "with a gun to their head". How on earth could that happen, if the G5 were in fact a legitimate contender for the national title? E.g., the P5 know that Notre Dame is a valid threat and are viewed as such by the public, so they can't hold a gun to ND's head in these negotiations. They know their playoffs would be regarded as invalid by large swathes of the public if ND was somehow excluded.

But the G5 aren't, and thus have no sway in the matter.

So saying the CFP winner is 'pretend' would be like me claiming that the Warriors were a "pretend" basketball world champion because my local club team was excluded from the NBA playoffs. Absurd.

Plus, look at the results of the processes: Is there more doubt in your mind that Clemson was the 'real' best football team last year or UVA was the 'real' best hoops team?

I'm a lot more confident about Clemson, the product of the CFP. I think if we look back, we would see that the CFP produces a champ that passes the smell test at least as often as the NCAA tournament does.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 11:02 AM by quo vadis.)
05-15-2019 10:56 AM
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Post: #51
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-12-2019 12:34 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I'll agree to extend the playoff and have several autobids out of the G5 (and even a clause for a mandatory at large if some fluke happens where each G5 produces an undefeated champion, provided they didn't schedule a bunch of FCS and cellar teams OOC). In exchange, everybody has to agree to revoke Colorado's "share" of the 1990 NC. 04-deal

Seconded.
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05-15-2019 10:59 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-12-2019 11:54 AM)Bull Wrote:  It's quite simple... we don't have a legitimate NC. We had a 2, and now 4, team tournament. So long as 'selection' is involved, and not everyone has a pathway, it's ridiculously subjective. You can't 'select' in teams for a playoff. By definition, that is not what a playoff is...

If the P5 distill down to 4 and separate, it can be a playoff. If they expand it to all FBS conference champs, it's a playoff. Just look at how MLB, NFL, etc playoffs happen... the regular season is actually the first part of the playoff. You don't have that in NCAAFB, when a team can be undefeated for 2 seasons and still not be 'selected'.

Given we don't have a real playoff, leading to a situation where an undefeated UCF could beat Auburn in a NY6 bowl, and Auburn beat BOTH 'playoff' teams... yeah, you have a real strong argument that UCF was the best team in the country. Relying on the fact that some committee kept them off the field is a real weak argument.

And this is coming from a USF fan...

I don't know if UCF was really the "best" team that year, but they absolutely deserve some recognition as undefeated national champions. The fact that they beat the team that beat both Alabama and Georgia only adds weight to an already strong argument.
05-15-2019 11:02 AM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 10:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 10:33 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

Its still kind of a pretend title. Until the 1990's they literally prefaced the words "national championship" with the word "mythical". Now we have something thats less mythical---but it clearly excludes any possible access by half the teams in the division---so its still an imperfect vestige of the old bowl system that may or may not have #1 and #2 play each other in the final game of the year. Until every team begins the year with a realistic path to the playoff, it wont really be totally legit. Instead of having polls and bowl committees create the playoff---we now have largely eliminated the public sector national polls and gone to a selection committee made up of the same kind of guys that make up bowl committees. Its kinda more of the same. Right now its a bit like the early Bowl Coalition where the Rose Bowl didnt participate (meaning the system could never match #1 and #2 if either were in the Big10 or Pac12). Now, all the power conferences are included, but that still excludes over half the teams in the division. As long has a huge portion of the division is completely frozen out, its cant be considered completely legit FBS champion--regardless of what its defenders say. Virtually every national sports writer alive knows that no G5 has a chance to get into the playoff. It is what it is. Are we really going to use an "agreement" signed with essentially a gun to their head as proof of legitimacy? C'mon. It is what it is.

Until the 1990s, the title was called "mythical" by the media, because it was mythical - the schools themselves did not recognize any process or entity as conferring a national title, even though informally, schools did recognize the AP and Coaches polls as conferring a title, and celebrated them as such.

Since then, a formal agreed-on system has been put in place by all the FBS conferences to crown a champion.

I mean, the CFP agreement is a fact.

If you want to talk informally, there's also no basis for calling the title "pretend", because even if one agrees that the G5 is excluded (I don't, but if), it only excludes those schools and conferences from which the actual national champion *never* comes. I mean, if you look back over the history of college football, the only time a non-P5 has been the best team was BYU, 35 years ago. Before that, you have to go back basically forever, because e.g. when teams like Army won the title in the 1940s, they were a power program of that era.

It's like if the NCAA tournament suddenly excluded the Sun Belt, MAC, MWC, etc. from the tournament. That wouldn't make the tournament a "pretend" title because schools from those schools literally never are the best anyway. No "non-power" school has ever won the NCAA hoops tournament. Ever.

So there's nothing worth mentioning being excluded. Proof of this is your claim that the G5 signed the CFP "with a gun to their head". How on earth could that happen, if the G5 were in fact a legitimate contender for the national title? E.g., the P5 know that Notre Dame is a valid threat and are viewed as such by the public, so they can't hold a gun to ND's head in these negotiations. They know their playoffs would be regarded as invalid by large swathes of the public if ND was somehow excluded.

But the G5 aren't, and thus have no sway in the matter.

So saying the CFP winner is 'pretend' would be like me claiming that the Warriors were a "pretend" basketball world champion because my local club team was excluded from the NBA playoffs. Absurd.

Plus, look at the results of the processes: Is there more doubt in your mind that Clemson was the 'real' best football team last year or UVA was the 'real' best hoops team?

I'm a lot more confident about Clemson, the product of the CFP. I think if we look back, we would see that the CFP produces a champ that passes the smell test at least as often as the NCAA tournament does.

No, it's like proclaiming the Warriors champions after the WCF because a committee of western conference teams declared the East unworthy years before.
05-15-2019 11:04 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 11:04 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 10:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 10:33 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

Its still kind of a pretend title. Until the 1990's they literally prefaced the words "national championship" with the word "mythical". Now we have something thats less mythical---but it clearly excludes any possible access by half the teams in the division---so its still an imperfect vestige of the old bowl system that may or may not have #1 and #2 play each other in the final game of the year. Until every team begins the year with a realistic path to the playoff, it wont really be totally legit. Instead of having polls and bowl committees create the playoff---we now have largely eliminated the public sector national polls and gone to a selection committee made up of the same kind of guys that make up bowl committees. Its kinda more of the same. Right now its a bit like the early Bowl Coalition where the Rose Bowl didnt participate (meaning the system could never match #1 and #2 if either were in the Big10 or Pac12). Now, all the power conferences are included, but that still excludes over half the teams in the division. As long has a huge portion of the division is completely frozen out, its cant be considered completely legit FBS champion--regardless of what its defenders say. Virtually every national sports writer alive knows that no G5 has a chance to get into the playoff. It is what it is. Are we really going to use an "agreement" signed with essentially a gun to their head as proof of legitimacy? C'mon. It is what it is.

Until the 1990s, the title was called "mythical" by the media, because it was mythical - the schools themselves did not recognize any process or entity as conferring a national title, even though informally, schools did recognize the AP and Coaches polls as conferring a title, and celebrated them as such.

Since then, a formal agreed-on system has been put in place by all the FBS conferences to crown a champion.

I mean, the CFP agreement is a fact.

If you want to talk informally, there's also no basis for calling the title "pretend", because even if one agrees that the G5 is excluded (I don't, but if), it only excludes those schools and conferences from which the actual national champion *never* comes. I mean, if you look back over the history of college football, the only time a non-P5 has been the best team was BYU, 35 years ago. Before that, you have to go back basically forever, because e.g. when teams like Army won the title in the 1940s, they were a power program of that era.

It's like if the NCAA tournament suddenly excluded the Sun Belt, MAC, MWC, etc. from the tournament. That wouldn't make the tournament a "pretend" title because schools from those schools literally never are the best anyway. No "non-power" school has ever won the NCAA hoops tournament. Ever.

So there's nothing worth mentioning being excluded. Proof of this is your claim that the G5 signed the CFP "with a gun to their head". How on earth could that happen, if the G5 were in fact a legitimate contender for the national title? E.g., the P5 know that Notre Dame is a valid threat and are viewed as such by the public, so they can't hold a gun to ND's head in these negotiations. They know their playoffs would be regarded as invalid by large swathes of the public if ND was somehow excluded.

But the G5 aren't, and thus have no sway in the matter.

So saying the CFP winner is 'pretend' would be like me claiming that the Warriors were a "pretend" basketball world champion because my local club team was excluded from the NBA playoffs. Absurd.

Plus, look at the results of the processes: Is there more doubt in your mind that Clemson was the 'real' best football team last year or UVA was the 'real' best hoops team?

I'm a lot more confident about Clemson, the product of the CFP. I think if we look back, we would see that the CFP produces a champ that passes the smell test at least as often as the NCAA tournament does.

No, it's like proclaiming the Warriors champions after the WCF because a committee of western conference teams declared the East unworthy years before.

That's a very poor analogy, because teams from the East are obviously on an equal footing competitive-wise and every other way with teams from the West. Teams from the Eastern conference have won about as many NBA titles, etc.

The same is totally untrue of the G5 conferences vs the P5 conferences. There's never been a year, ever, where a G5 team has been the best team in the country.

Ever. So you're not excluding anything worth mentioning.
05-15-2019 11:10 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 10:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 10:33 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 11:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 10:53 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-13-2019 01:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't think undefeated means anything - anyone can go undefeated against a soft enough schedule.

But anyone can put up a banner anyway. It's a free country. If Arkansas State wants to declare themselves 2018 national champs just because, well whose to stop them?

You go undefeated in most other sports and you win the championship. Only in CFB do we pretend differently.

It's not a 'pretend'. It's just that in other sports, if you go undefeated, you have completed a process agreed to by yourself and the other competitors as determining the championship and thus have grounds to claim that you are their champion.

But in college football (FBS) you can go undefeated without completing such a process, and thus have no claim to a title. See UCF in 2017, Tulane in 1998, etc.

Its still kind of a pretend title. Until the 1990's they literally prefaced the words "national championship" with the word "mythical". Now we have something thats less mythical---but it clearly excludes any possible access by half the teams in the division---so its still an imperfect vestige of the old bowl system that may or may not have #1 and #2 play each other in the final game of the year. Until every team begins the year with a realistic path to the playoff, it wont really be totally legit. Instead of having polls and bowl committees create the playoff---we now have largely eliminated the public sector national polls and gone to a selection committee made up of the same kind of guys that make up bowl committees. Its kinda more of the same. Right now its a bit like the early Bowl Coalition where the Rose Bowl didnt participate (meaning the system could never match #1 and #2 if either were in the Big10 or Pac12). Now, all the power conferences are included, but that still excludes over half the teams in the division. As long has a huge portion of the division is completely frozen out, its cant be considered completely legit FBS champion--regardless of what its defenders say. Virtually every national sports writer alive knows that no G5 has a chance to get into the playoff. It is what it is. Are we really going to use an "agreement" signed with essentially a gun to their head as proof of legitimacy? C'mon. It is what it is.

Until the 1990s, the title was called "mythical" by the media, because it was mythical - the schools themselves did not recognize any process or entity as conferring a national title, even though informally, schools did recognize the AP and Coaches polls as conferring a title, and celebrated them as such.

Since then, a formal agreed-on system has been put in place by all the FBS conferences to crown a champion.

I mean, the CFP agreement is a fact.

If you want to talk informally, there's also no basis for calling the title "pretend", because even if one agrees that the G5 is excluded (I don't, but if), it only excludes those schools and conferences from which the actual national champion *never* comes. I mean, if you look back over the history of college football, the only time a non-P5 has been the best team was BYU, 35 years ago. Before that, you have to go back basically forever, because e.g. when teams like Army won the title in the 1940s, they were a power program of that era.

It's like if the NCAA tournament suddenly excluded the Sun Belt, MAC, MWC, etc. from the tournament. That wouldn't make the tournament a "pretend" title because schools from those schools literally never are the best anyway. No "non-power" school has ever won the NCAA hoops tournament. Ever.

So there's nothing worth mentioning being excluded. Proof of this is your claim that the G5 signed the CFP "with a gun to their head". How on earth could that happen, if the G5 were in fact a legitimate contender for the national title? E.g., the P5 know that Notre Dame is a valid threat and are viewed as such by the public, so they can't hold a gun to ND's head in these negotiations. They know their playoffs would be regarded as invalid by large swathes of the public if ND was somehow excluded.

But the G5 aren't, and thus have no sway in the matter.

So saying the CFP winner is 'pretend' would be like me claiming that the Warriors were a "pretend" basketball world champion because my local club team was excluded from the NBA playoffs. Absurd.

Plus, look at the results of the processes: Is there more doubt in your mind that Clemson was the 'real' best football team last year or UVA was the 'real' best hoops team?

I'm a lot more confident about Clemson, the product of the CFP. I think if we look back, we would see that the CFP produces a champ that passes the smell test at least as often as the NCAA tournament does.

The G5 has fewer fans and their content is less profitable to the networks. That has not one thing to do with whether or not UCF or any other undefeated past or future G5 might could actually win a title on the field of play. It was a business decision. Always has been....which is ironic in that collegiate athletics is an arena that was never supposed to be about money. Like I said, it is what it is.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 11:12 AM by Attackcoog.)
05-15-2019 11:11 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 11:02 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  I don't know if UCF was really the "best" team that year, but they absolutely deserve some recognition as undefeated national champions. The fact that they beat the team that beat both Alabama and Georgia only adds weight to an already strong argument.

Their argument has zero strength before we talk about their win over Auburn.

And beating Auburn isn't worth mentioning either: LSU, Georgia, and Clemson all beat Auburn (who beat Alabama and Georgia!) too, and guess what?

Alabama beat all of them. 07-coffee3
05-15-2019 11:11 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 11:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 11:02 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  I don't know if UCF was really the "best" team that year, but they absolutely deserve some recognition as undefeated national champions. The fact that they beat the team that beat both Alabama and Georgia only adds weight to an already strong argument.

Their argument has zero strength before we talk about their win over Auburn.

And beating Auburn isn't worth mentioning either: LSU, Georgia, and Clemson all beat Auburn (who beat Alabama and Georgia!) too, and guess what?

Alabama beat all of them. 07-coffee3

That reads to me like a fantastic well honed argument for why Bama and UCF SHOULD have played rather than a defense of the current system. 04-cheers

As Ive long held, its almost impossible to make a very good argument for excluding an undefeated team in the playoff. You can talk about schedule strength---but that doesnt prove that the team wouldnt be undefeated against a better schedule. That can only be KNOWN by putting the team in the playoff to face the best. Otherwise, your simply assuming a team is NOT a top quality team because of the conference emblem on their jersey. You said before that a team could play Rice 12 times and be undefeated. Sure. And when an undefeaed G5 plays Rice 12 times to stay undefeated---you'll have a great argument. Unfortunately, that wasnt the case with UCF. They played a normal schedule with some good teams. In fact, 2 of them were vs ranked team (#22 and #16) PRIOR to playing Auburn. Its also worth noting that they played #16 Memphis TWICE that year.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 11:25 AM by Attackcoog.)
05-15-2019 11:14 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 11:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 11:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 11:02 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  I don't know if UCF was really the "best" team that year, but they absolutely deserve some recognition as undefeated national champions. The fact that they beat the team that beat both Alabama and Georgia only adds weight to an already strong argument.

Their argument has zero strength before we talk about their win over Auburn.

And beating Auburn isn't worth mentioning either: LSU, Georgia, and Clemson all beat Auburn (who beat Alabama and Georgia!) too, and guess what?

Alabama beat all of them. 07-coffee3

That reads to me like a fantastic well honed argument for why Bama and UCF SHOULD have played rather than a defense of the current system. 04-cheers

It's a good argument for the old pre-Alliance/BCS system. There's no way to play enough games in a CFB season to resolve every team's "We should have had a chance to beat School X" argument. Might as well just let the bowls be played, forget about a pretend playoff, and let everyone argue about who is or isn't #1. There was never anything wrong about disputes at the end of the season; the BCS/CFP is a solution to something that wasn't a problem.
05-15-2019 11:23 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
UCF is still co-national champs regardless. No one beat them that year and the NCAA arbitrarily prevented them from competing for the title.

If the NCAA wants to avoid issues like this, then have a truly fair playoff system where all P5 champs + G5 champ if they have at least 10 wins + 2 wildcards compete in a 8-team tournament, and you can seed based on the CFP Rankings.

1. Clemson
8. UCF

4. Alabama
5. Ohio State

2. Oklahoma
7. USC

3. Georgia
6. Wisconsin

IF UCF was able to win their way to the title game and win, they would have truly earned it, because they would have beaten Clemson and Alabama/Ohio State on their way to the title game and it would have been the ultimate underdog story.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 11:37 AM by AntiG.)
05-15-2019 11:35 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Colley Matrix Revokes UCF’s National Title
(05-15-2019 11:23 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 11:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 11:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 11:02 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  I don't know if UCF was really the "best" team that year, but they absolutely deserve some recognition as undefeated national champions. The fact that they beat the team that beat both Alabama and Georgia only adds weight to an already strong argument.

Their argument has zero strength before we talk about their win over Auburn.

And beating Auburn isn't worth mentioning either: LSU, Georgia, and Clemson all beat Auburn (who beat Alabama and Georgia!) too, and guess what?

Alabama beat all of them. 07-coffee3

That reads to me like a fantastic well honed argument for why Bama and UCF SHOULD have played rather than a defense of the current system. 04-cheers

It's a good argument for the old pre-Alliance/BCS system. There's no way to play enough games in a CFB season to resolve every team's "We should have had a chance to beat School X" argument. Might as well just let the bowls be played, forget about a pretend playoff, and let everyone argue about who is or isn't #1. There was never anything wrong about disputes at the end of the season; the BCS/CFP is a solution to something that wasn't a problem.

I get what your saying (hey, we have arguments over the 64th best team in the country during basketball selection sunday). That said, I do think they can get to a reasonable compromise on the playoff with the 5-1-2 system. That would at least allow every team to map out a legitimate path to the playoff going into the first snap of the season. I think thats all anyone can really ask for in a sport that has 130 teams, can reasonably only play one game a week, and must conclude the season by early Jan. I think we will eventually get there---though Ive been thinking that since the 1990's. 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 12:15 PM by Attackcoog.)
05-15-2019 11:35 AM
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