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What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
I'm not too familiar with the particulars of Ohio St joining the already established Big 10 over 100 years ago but what if they had been spurned and the Buckeyes decided to build a league of their own with available schools within a train ride of Columbus:

Notre Dame--blackballed by anti-Catholic elements in the Big 10
Mich St--blackballed by U of M
Penn St
Pitt
Syracuse

One or two of Cincy, Miami, or Ohio

I have to say this would have been a pretty awesome league. It might eventually grow to include others: BC, Rutgers, Temple, Maryland (instead of founding the ACC after the bowl feud with Tobacco Road)

Where might this league be today?
05-09-2019 08:33 PM
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
BAC

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05-09-2019 08:47 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
This would be Penn State's ideal Eastern conference. They probably would have added Army, and eventually either Boston College or West Virginia in the 50s to go to 10 members.

When the age of television came around, this conference would DOMINATE. They'd have every important fanbase in the biggest Northeastern markets. My guess is that Northeastern football would not be the disinterested mess that it is today if this conference had existed.

In the 1990s, they'd easily be the most powerful conference. When the money train showed up, they'd use it to take Michigan from the Big 10 as #11. They'd pause and wait, and I'd bet they'd successfully execute the Southern strategy that the real Big 10 failed to pull off in the 2010 reallignment: take Maryland, UVA, and UNC for 12, 13, and 14.
05-09-2019 10:00 PM
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johnintx Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
It's hard to imagine Ohio State and Michigan not sharing a conference. But, this brings up some interesting what if scenarios....

Michigan State ends up in a stronger conference than Michigan...until Michigan joins it.
The Ohio State-Michigan rivalry either has a different dynamic or doesn't exist until Michigan joins the conference.
Does Penn State win a national championship sooner coming out of this conference than they did as an independent?
Does this conference take West Virginia after they were frozen out of the ACC after the split from the Southern Conference?
05-09-2019 11:19 PM
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Transic_nyc Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
The private school in Indiana does what it has always done: march to their own drums. So pencil them out.

Virginia Tech - This is the one football school that I could see joining such a conference. They'd immediately stretch into Virginia and maybe pull in an NC State or another program in the South

West Virginia - makes sense as a twofer with VT

Penn State - would have enough partners in the East to make it work for them

Maryland - as an additive to VT and WVU

Michigan State - Would quickly find its footing even without their in-state rival or the private school in South Bend.

Would this conference try to pull in Wisconsin and Michigan to its orbit? Would Kentucky find this too tempting to pass up?

If Michigan and Wisconsin stay put then they'd eventually add Nebraska and Missouri to get to ten.

Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Illinois
Northwestern
Purdue
Iowa
Indiana
Michigan
Wisconsin

The Ohio Conference might look like this:

Ohio State
Michigan State
Penn State
Virginia Tech
Maryland
West Virginia
Kentucky
Pittsburgh

Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan State and occasionally West Virginia would provide some basketball gravitas but it would be clear that football is the prime focus.


The SEC sans Kentucky would look into adding South Carolina, Florida State, Clemson, Arkansas, Louisville or Miami. Big 8 remnants would still merge with part of the SWC but would Iowa State make it or forced to go indy? Perhaps the Texas schools would look different but maybe Arkansas would be part of this if the SEC takes South Carolina. Colorado might still jump West but the PAC then wasn't in a strong enough position to pull them in.

Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Arkansas
Colorado
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
penciling Iowa State here because I don't know how Texas politics would have operated before the 1990s, so I'm assuming that Arkansas would be enough to pacify the Texas group

I would assume that the ACC and the remaining independents would still fight it out in the East. Maybe Navy and Rutgers, as well as Syracuse and Boston College, eventually join the ACC.
05-10-2019 01:21 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.
05-10-2019 02:58 AM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Ohio colleges were a popular destination in the 60's and 70's for east coasters to escape the urban blight.

In the last 30 years the public schools have continued to thrive with updated campuses and a lower total cost than the privates. Cost though has driven most of the out of state students away. Also those urban areas have gentrified with the best job opportunities.
05-10-2019 06:21 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 06:21 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Ohio colleges were a popular destination in the 60's and 70's for east coasters to escape the urban blight.

In the last 30 years the public schools have continued to thrive with updated campuses and a lower total cost than the privates. Cost though has driven most of the out of state students away. Also those urban areas have gentrified with the best job opportunities.

That's actually not true at all with respect to Ohio State and Miami. Those campuses in particular are drawing as many out-of-state students as ever. Granted, that's intentional by public universities everywhere (not just Ohio) since in-state funding cuts have made it more important to find people willing to pay out-of-state tuition dollars.
05-10-2019 08:15 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
By the way, the OP hypothetical is along the lines of "What if Alabama never joined the SEC?" or "What if Yahoo! accepted an offer to buy Google for $1 million in 1998?" or "What if John Lennon and Paul McCartney never met each other?" or "What if King George hadn't tried to tax the American colonialists without representation?" or "What if we could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby?" You can basically make up anything in history at that point.
05-10-2019 08:33 AM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 08:33 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  By the way, the OP hypothetical is along the lines of "What if Alabama never joined the SEC?" or "What if Yahoo! accepted an offer to buy Google for $1 million in 1998?" or "What if John Lennon and Paul McCartney never met each other?" or "What if King George hadn't tried to tax the American colonialists without representation?" or "What if we could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby?" You can basically make up anything in history at that point.

What if Superman were born in Germany? https://vimeo.com/30954731
05-10-2019 09:28 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Northeastern Ohioans (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Ashtabula) have no problem orienting East. Cleveland thinks of itself as the bridge between NYC and Chicago, and they see themselves as a smaller version of New York (in fact when I was in college in Cleveland, Hollywood movies that were supposed to take place in New York were sometimes filmed in Cleveland).

SW Ohioans don't care about Michigan. It was settled by Appalachians and Germans. Michigan is just as far away as Missouri or Tennessee to us. Our twin cities are Louisville and St. Louis and Munich (river cities that were also settled by mountain men and Germans).

SE Ohioans don't care about Michigan either. They're Appalachians.

Ohio is a lot bigger than just Columbus and Toledo.
05-10-2019 10:40 AM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 10:40 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Northeastern Ohioans (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Ashtabula) have no problem orienting East. Cleveland thinks of itself as the bridge between NYC and Chicago, and they see themselves as a smaller version of New York (in fact when I was in college in Cleveland, Hollywood movies that were supposed to take place in New York were sometimes filmed in Cleveland).

SW Ohioans don't care about Michigan. It was settled by Appalachians and Germans. Michigan is just as far away as Missouri or Tennessee to us. Our twin cities are Louisville and St. Louis and Munich (river cities that were also settled by mountain men and Germans).

SE Ohioans don't care about Michigan either. They're Appalachians.

Ohio is a lot bigger than just Columbus and Toledo.

Where is Munich? I don't think I've noted one outside of Germany.
05-10-2019 10:59 AM
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johnintx Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 10:40 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Northeastern Ohioans (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Ashtabula) have no problem orienting East. Cleveland thinks of itself as the bridge between NYC and Chicago, and they see themselves as a smaller version of New York (in fact when I was in college in Cleveland, Hollywood movies that were supposed to take place in New York were sometimes filmed in Cleveland).

SW Ohioans don't care about Michigan. It was settled by Appalachians and Germans. Michigan is just as far away as Missouri or Tennessee to us. Our twin cities are Louisville and St. Louis and Munich (river cities that were also settled by mountain men and Germans).

SE Ohioans don't care about Michigan either. They're Appalachians.

Ohio is a lot bigger than just Columbus and Toledo.

In this case, the Ohio State song/cheer "I don't give a damn about the whole state of Michigan...'cause I'm from Ohio" is true. 02-13-banana
05-10-2019 11:27 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
When Ohio State joined the Western Conference (forerunner to the Big 9/Big Ten) in 1912, Michigan was not a member of that conference. The Wolverines played as Independents from 1906-1916, rejoining for the 2017 season. Might those two, situated further east than any of the remaining 8 Western Conference schools, have thought about joining forces to start an Eastern Conference?

A combination of schools that might have survived from 1910 into the modern era as the core of a coherent Eastern Conference might have consisted of:

Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Pitt
West Virginia
Syracuse
Rutgers

A nice post-war (WWII) addition could have been Michigan State which had not yet been accepted into the Big 9.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2019 12:12 PM by ken d.)
05-10-2019 11:49 AM
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 01:21 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  The private school in Indiana does what it has always done: march to their own drums. So pencil them out.

Virginia Tech - This is the one football school that I could see joining such a conference. They'd immediately stretch into Virginia and maybe pull in an NC State or another program in the South

West Virginia - makes sense as a twofer with VT

Penn State - would have enough partners in the East to make it work for them

Maryland - as an additive to VT and WVU

Michigan State - Would quickly find its footing even without their in-state rival or the private school in South Bend.

Would this conference try to pull in Wisconsin and Michigan to its orbit? Would Kentucky find this too tempting to pass up?

If Michigan and Wisconsin stay put then they'd eventually add Nebraska and Missouri to get to ten.

Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Illinois
Northwestern
Purdue
Iowa
Indiana
Michigan
Wisconsin

The Ohio Conference might look like this:

Ohio State
Michigan State
Penn State
Virginia Tech
Maryland
West Virginia
Kentucky
Pittsburgh

Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan State and occasionally West Virginia would provide some basketball gravitas but it would be clear that football is the prime focus.


The SEC sans Kentucky would look into adding South Carolina, Florida State, Clemson, Arkansas, Louisville or Miami. Big 8 remnants would still merge with part of the SWC but would Iowa State make it or forced to go indy? Perhaps the Texas schools would look different but maybe Arkansas would be part of this if the SEC takes South Carolina. Colorado might still jump West but the PAC then wasn't in a strong enough position to pull them in.

Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Arkansas
Colorado
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
penciling Iowa State here because I don't know how Texas politics would have operated before the 1990s, so I'm assuming that Arkansas would be enough to pacify the Texas group

I would assume that the ACC and the remaining independents would still fight it out in the East. Maybe Navy and Rutgers, as well as Syracuse and Boston College, eventually join the ACC.

The School With No Name (ND) may have joined a conference like this one around the time it was seeking (and was rejected/blackballed) membership in the then Western Conference (Big Ten).

After all, it was actively seeking conference membership at the time.

But, after the rejection, Rockne took them barnstorming across the country, the rest is history and the die was cast for a hundred or more years of independence.

So, for those who dislike ND's current position.....blame Michigan.

If this fantasy league had occurred prior to the barnstorming days, who knows?
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2019 12:12 PM by TerryD.)
05-10-2019 12:06 PM
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 08:33 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  By the way, the OP hypothetical is along the lines of "What if Alabama never joined the SEC?" or "What if Yahoo! accepted an offer to buy Google for $1 million in 1998?" or "What if John Lennon and Paul McCartney never met each other?" or "What if King George hadn't tried to tax the American colonialists without representation?" or "What if we could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby?" You can basically make up anything in history at that point.

Right. In this case, at the time Ohio State joined the B1G, the B1G was the strongest conference in college football, and all of the best schools in the midwest played in the B1G aside from Notre Dame and Michigan (which had withdrawn from the conference in 1906). By comparison, Ohio State was an "emerging" program, playing a schedule full of small Ohio colleges. It was a huge step up for them to join the B1G.
05-10-2019 12:09 PM
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
Who won the battle of Toledo?
Mich
05-10-2019 12:20 PM
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 10:40 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Northeastern Ohioans (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Ashtabula) have no problem orienting East. Cleveland thinks of itself as the bridge between NYC and Chicago, and they see themselves as a smaller version of New York (in fact when I was in college in Cleveland, Hollywood movies that were supposed to take place in New York were sometimes filmed in Cleveland).

SW Ohioans don't care about Michigan. It was settled by Appalachians and Germans. Michigan is just as far away as Missouri or Tennessee to us. Our twin cities are Louisville and St. Louis and Munich (river cities that were also settled by mountain men and Germans).

SE Ohioans don't care about Michigan either. They're Appalachians.

Ohio is a lot bigger than just Columbus and Toledo.
Wrong! Southeastern Ohio does care.
05-10-2019 12:35 PM
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TerryD Offline
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 12:35 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 10:40 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Northeastern Ohioans (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Ashtabula) have no problem orienting East. Cleveland thinks of itself as the bridge between NYC and Chicago, and they see themselves as a smaller version of New York (in fact when I was in college in Cleveland, Hollywood movies that were supposed to take place in New York were sometimes filmed in Cleveland).

SW Ohioans don't care about Michigan. It was settled by Appalachians and Germans. Michigan is just as far away as Missouri or Tennessee to us. Our twin cities are Louisville and St. Louis and Munich (river cities that were also settled by mountain men and Germans).

SE Ohioans don't care about Michigan either. They're Appalachians.

Ohio is a lot bigger than just Columbus and Toledo.
Wrong! Southeastern Ohio does care.


Growing up in the Pittsburgh area in the Sixties and early Seventies, half of my extended family (cousins, uncles, brother) had moved to Cleveland to find work.

That was true of many families in the area.

Cleveland always looked east from my personal perspective.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2019 01:47 PM by TerryD.)
05-10-2019 01:46 PM
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RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 10:59 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 10:40 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:58 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Impossible to even consider. Ohio and Michigan have been joined at the hip since the drunken battle for Toledo. We (Ohioans) gave Michiganders their nickname in that ferocious firefight across the river, saying they were like wild animals, no better than wolverines. It stuck. Of course we are named after an inedible fruit -- but great substitutes for dirt clods to throw at each other, and excellent for really crappy 4th grade art class jewelry we made.

Note: a combination of poor weaponry, a swollen river too wide to shoot accurately across across, combined with copious lubrication of the combatants with locally distilled spirits conspired to prevent any casualties.

I just can't see Ohioans being happy orienting east. I certainly wouldn't be. I'd rather align with Kansas City and Dallas than New York and Philadelphia. Maybe it's generations conditioned by B1G participation -- but I doubt it, it runs deeper.

Northeastern Ohioans (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Ashtabula) have no problem orienting East. Cleveland thinks of itself as the bridge between NYC and Chicago, and they see themselves as a smaller version of New York (in fact when I was in college in Cleveland, Hollywood movies that were supposed to take place in New York were sometimes filmed in Cleveland).

SW Ohioans don't care about Michigan. It was settled by Appalachians and Germans. Michigan is just as far away as Missouri or Tennessee to us. Our twin cities are Louisville and St. Louis and Munich (river cities that were also settled by mountain men and Germans).

SE Ohioans don't care about Michigan either. They're Appalachians.

Ohio is a lot bigger than just Columbus and Toledo.

Where is Munich? I don't think I've noted one outside of Germany.

Yes, I mean Munich, Germany. Cincinnatians think of Munich as a twin city of ours (it's an official sister city, too).

Cincinnati has the 2nd biggest Oktoberfest, after Munich. America's first official Hofbrauhaus was in Newport, KY (a stone's throw from the Red's stadium). Siemens (the Munich based multinational) has 3 Cincinnati-area plants that employ about 2,000 people. Cincinnati's Fountain Square, the center of the city, was custom produced in Munich. I could keep going.... but it's more than just official connections.

The cities just feel similar culturally. They're both mostly German (other Germans would say that Munich isn't really German). They're both white collar with a middle-class history. They're both more conservative and religious than other midsized cities in their country. And despite being very prosperous and pretty cities, they're both so humble that they're often overlooked in the rest of the country.
05-10-2019 02:31 PM
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