Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
Author Message
Transic_nyc Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,206
Joined: Jun 2014
Reputation: 53
I Root For: Not ESEACCPN
Location:
Post: #41
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-11-2019 09:03 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-11-2019 03:37 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 02:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Lots of interesting thoughts here. I'm going to try to hit on several points:

1. Notre Dame absolutely joins this league c. 1912. In the beginning, football independence was something imposed on ND, not sought after. If a bunch of state schools ran by Protestants invites them to be their peers they jump all over it.

2. Going South. I don't see schools like UVA getting into this league due to segregation. Most of these schools are going to demand integrated teams or at least being able to bring their black athletes to away games. That's probably a no go in 1953. I also share skepticism about WVU getting invited due to academics.

3. Michigan and Ohio St were not joined to the hip in mutual hatred in 1912. At that point in the series it was a one sided affair and U of M thought very little of the Buckeyes. With that said, after Feilding Yost (anti-ND) left the program and it became clear that this conference was stronger than the Big Ten I think there's a possibility Blue switches leagues.

4. Looking at deeper emplications, if this conference came to be I think some of the schools that broke away from the MVC to form the Big 8 end up being Big Ten schools but I don't see Oklahoma among them and I think the Sooners and Aggies end up back in the SWC.

5. One other thing to think about, depending on this league's size in the 50s is some association with the PCC schools who wanted to found the Airplane Conference hooking up with this group.

Even if ND joined this group I don't know how long it would last. They may insist on bringing in Boston College with Pitt. In those days the focus was truly regional. A conference surrounding Ohio State would probably not go beyond nine and would include state flagships or emerging football schools in the Appalachians. East coast cities like Boston would probably not fit in those plans.

Now if, say, Northwestern were to join up this group then that would become interesting. Northwestern, ND, Pitt, Michigan State and Penn State would have been a nice grouping. Then it becomes a matter of if it goes further East in the decades ahead or merge with the remnants of the Western Conference.

I'm thinking the founding core is probably:

ND
Mich St
Ohio St
Cincy
Penn St
Pitt
Syracuse
BC

It's a set up very reminiscent of baseball's AL and NL at the time--a circuit of 4 east coast teams and 4 Midwestern teams. I think it's a fairly harmonious group too. It's not too big so there's room for OOC games like Army vs ND in NYC. This league would produce nationally relevant teams year in and year out.

Eventually raiding the Big Ten is not out of the question. I see Michigan, not Northwestern as the big prize though.

ND and Michigan are like two peas in a pod: same snooty attitude and arrogance that goes with the self-styled elitist academics. Only big difference is sectionalism.
05-13-2019 07:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 1,967
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 87
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: :uoᴉʇɐɔo⌉
Post: #42
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
Here's a possible present day P5 for this timeline, with some admittedly unrealistic parallelism:

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Wake Forest (FSU/Duke), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (UNC/UF)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (UVA/Miami), Florida State (Miami/WF), Duke (WF/NCSU), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

EAC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
North: Boston College (UMD/Rutgers), Syracuse (Rutgers/PSU), Pittsburgh (PSU/WVU), Notre Dame (WVU/VT), Michigan (VT/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD)
South: Maryland (MSU/BC), Rutgers (BC/Syracuse), Penn State (Syracuse/Pitt), West Virginia (Pitt/ND), Virginia Tech (ND/UM), Ohio State (UM/MSU)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2019 07:45 PM by Nerdlinger.)
05-14-2019 09:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 1,967
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 87
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: :uoᴉʇɐɔo⌉
Post: #43
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-14-2019 09:26 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's a possible present day P5 for this timeline, with some admittedly unrealistic parallelism:

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Wake Forest (FSU/Duke), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (UNC/UF)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (UVA/Miami), Florida State (Miami/WF), Duke (WF/NCSU), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

EAC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
North: Boston College (UMD/Rutgers), Syracuse (Rutgers/PSU), Pittsburgh (PSU/WVU), Notre Dame (WVU/VT), Michigan (VT/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD)
South: Maryland (MSU/BC), Rutgers (BC/Syracuse), Penn State (Syracuse/Pitt), West Virginia (Pitt/ND), Virginia Tech (ND/UM), Ohio State (UM/MSU)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

So what do you think of this as a possible progression of events in this timeline?

Major differences from our timeline

1910s
EAC forms with Michigan Agricultural, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse

1920s
SoCon forms without Maryland and West Virginia, which join EAC instead
Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M do not leave SWC for MVIAA
Breakup of MVIAA postponed

1930s
Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
Michigan from Western Conference to EAC
Iowa State, Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference/Big 12
Colorado from Mountain States Conference to Western Conference/Big 12
Kansas State from MVIAA to SWC

1950s
ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech but not Maryland

1970s
South Carolina sticks with ACC

1980s
Vanderbilt drops football and leaves SEC for DIII UAA
Rice drops football and leaves SWC for DIII UAA
Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulane, and Tulsa; no longer considered "power" conference

1990s
No Big East football
Florida State and Miami-FL join ACC
Boston College, Rutgers, and Virginia Tech join EAC
WAC adds Boise State; declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa
American Conference (a more eastern CUSA) forms with Army, East Carolina, Central Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, South Florida, and Temple
SWC adds Louisiana Tech and UAB

2000s
Colorado from Big 12 to Pac-10/12
Kansas State from SWC to Big 12
Utah from WAC to Pac-10/12
SWC adds Arkansas State
WAC adds Nevada
American Conference adds Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

~~~~~~~~~~~~

And here are the current alignments of 3 non-power conferences:

American
North: Army, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, Temple
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulane, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, SMU, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa

WAC
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

Each has an 8-game conference schedule with no protected crossovers.

Notable annual OOC matchups
Air Force/Navy
Air Force/Army
Arkansas/Arkansas State
Army/Rutgers
Auburn/Georgia
BYU/Utah
Cincinnati/Ohio State
Colorado/Colorado State
East Carolina/NC State
Louisville/Kentucky
LSU/Tulane
Marshall/West Virginia
Maryland/Navy
Memphis/Tennessee
Navy/Notre Dame
Oklahoma State/Tulsa
Penn State/Temple
Virginia/Virginia Tech
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2019 09:58 PM by Nerdlinger.)
05-18-2019 07:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fighting Muskie Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,433
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 83
I Root For: Ohio St, MAC
Location:
Post: #44
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-18-2019 07:45 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 09:26 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's a possible present day P5 for this timeline, with some admittedly unrealistic parallelism:

ACC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Atlantic: Clemson (UGA/GT), South Carolina (UGA/GT), Miami-FL (UF/FSU), Wake Forest (FSU/Duke), NC State (Duke/UNC), Virginia (UNC/UF)
Coastal: Georgia (Clemson/SC), Georgia Tech (Clemson/SC), Florida (UVA/Miami), Florida State (Miami/WF), Duke (WF/NCSU), North Carolina (NCSU/UVA)

Big 12 (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin
West: Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska

EAC (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
North: Boston College (UMD/Rutgers), Syracuse (Rutgers/PSU), Pittsburgh (PSU/WVU), Notre Dame (WVU/VT), Michigan (VT/OSU), Michigan State (OSU/UMD)
South: Maryland (MSU/BC), Rutgers (BC/Syracuse), Penn State (Syracuse/Pitt), West Virginia (Pitt/ND), Virginia Tech (ND/UM), Ohio State (UM/MSU)

Pac-12 (9-game conference schedule, 2 protected crossovers per team)
Pacific: Arizona (ASU/Utah), Colorado (ASU/Utah), California (Stanford/USC), UCLA (Stanford/USC), Oregon (OSU/WSU), Washington (OSU/WSU)
Western: Arizona State (UA/CU), Utah (UA/CU), Stanford (Cal/UCLA), USC (Cal/UCLA), Oregon State (UO/UW), Washington State (UO/UW)

SEC (8-game conference schedule, no protected crossovers)
East: Alabama, Auburn, Kentucky, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Tennessee
West: Arkansas, LSU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M

So what do you think of this as a possible progression of events in this timeline?

Major differences from OTL

1910s
EAC forms with Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, and West Virginia

1920s
Maryland and Michigan State from Ind to EAC
Oklahoma and Oklahoma State do not leave SWC for MVIAA
Breakup of the MVIAA postponed

1930s
Boston College from Ind to EAC
Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech remain with SoCon rather than joining SEC

1940s
Michigan from Western Conference to EAC
Iowa State, Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska from MVIAA to Western Conference/Big 12
Colorado from Mountain States Conference to Western Conference/Big 12
Kansas State from MVIAA to SWC

1950s
ACC forms with Florida, Georgia, and Georgia Tech but not Maryland

1980s
Vanderbilt drops football and leaves SEC for DIII UAA
Rice drops football and leaves SWC for DIII UAA
Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas, and Texas A&M from SWC to SEC
SWC adds Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulane, and Tulsa

1990s
No Big East football
Florida State and Miami from Ind to ACC
Rutgers and Virginia Tech from Ind to EAC
WAC adds Boise State; declines to add Rice, San Jose State, SMU, TCU, and Tulsa
American Conference (a more eastern CUSA) forms with Army, East Carolina, Central Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, South Florida, and Temple
SWC adds Louisiana Tech and UAB

2000s
Colorado from Big 12 to Pac-10/12
Kansas State from SWC to Big 12
Utah from WAC to Pac-10/12
SWC adds Arkansas State
WAC adds Nevada
American Conference adds Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, and Old Dominion

~~~~~~~~~~~~

And here are the current alignments of 3 non-power conferences:

American
North: Army, Cincinnati, Louisville, Marshall, Navy, Temple
South: Appalachian State, Central Florida, East Carolina, Georgia Southern, Old Dominion, South Florida

SWC
East: Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Memphis, Southern Miss, Tulane, UAB
West: Baylor, Houston, SMU, TCU, Texas Tech, Tulsa

WAC
Mountain: Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, UTEP, Wyoming
Pacific: Boise State, Fresno State, Hawaii, Nevada, San Diego State, UNLV

I have things a tad different but I think you have some good stuff here:

1910's: Mich St and Cincy are EAC founders, WVU is not invited. WVU is culturally southern a not a great fit with this group. There's a few in that group would sneer at their academics. Cincy seems like an odd inclusion but with the Buckeyes as a core founder I think they bring a little brother into the mix.

1920's: Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M return to the SWC, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, and Iowa St join the Western Conference

1930's: BC joins the EAC, Army and Navy decline the invite

1940's: the EAC and PCAA agree to meet annually in the Rose Bowl

1950's: Chicago downgrades, Mich moves to the EAC, Maryland's tif with the SoCon over bowling leads them to apply to the EAC--they are accepted and the league adopts the nickname Big Ten

1960's: Colorado helps found the WAC

1970's: The PAC 8 adds the AZ schools, Colorado, and Utah

1990's: SEC adds S Car & Ark, ACC adds FSU, Miami, VT, and WVU, the Big 10 possibly steals a pair from the Western Conference to make 12,

Overall I think Rutgers and Temple never become big time; the Big East never has its football foray. Colorado never moves east but ultimately goes west a few decades earlier than normal.
05-18-2019 09:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 1,967
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 87
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: :uoᴉʇɐɔo⌉
Post: #45
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-18-2019 09:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I have things a tad different but I think you have some good stuff here:

1910's: Mich St and Cincy are EAC founders, WVU is not invited. WVU is culturally southern a not a great fit with this group. There's a few in that group would sneer at their academics. Cincy seems like an odd inclusion but with the Buckeyes as a core founder I think they bring a little brother into the mix.

1920's: Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M return to the SWC, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, and Iowa St join the Western Conference

1930's: BC joins the EAC, Army and Navy decline the invite

1940's: the EAC and PCAA agree to meet annually in the Rose Bowl

1950's: Chicago downgrades, Mich moves to the EAC, Maryland's tif with the SoCon over bowling leads them to apply to the EAC--they are accepted and the league adopts the nickname Big Ten

1960's: Colorado helps found the WAC

1970's: The PAC 8 adds the AZ schools, Colorado, and Utah

1990's: SEC adds S Car & Ark, ACC adds FSU, Miami, VT, and WVU, the Big 10 possibly steals a pair from the Western Conference to make 12,

Overall I think Rutgers and Temple never become big time; the Big East never has its football foray. Colorado never moves east but ultimately goes west a few decades earlier than normal.

So by the '90s, something like this?

ACC (11): Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami-FL, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, West Virginia
Big Ten (10+2?): Boston College, Cincinnati, Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse
Pac-12: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Colorado, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Utah, Washington, Washington State
SEC (12): Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
SWC (10): Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
Western (11-2?): Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin

Unknown: Kansas State, Louisville, Rutgers, etc.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2019 09:36 PM by Nerdlinger.)
05-18-2019 09:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fighting Muskie Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,433
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 83
I Root For: Ohio St, MAC
Location:
Post: #46
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-18-2019 09:32 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(05-18-2019 09:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I have things a tad different but I think you have some good stuff here:

1910's: Mich St and Cincy are EAC founders, WVU is not invited. WVU is culturally southern a not a great fit with this group. There's a few in that group would sneer at their academics. Cincy seems like an odd inclusion but with the Buckeyes as a core founder I think they bring a little brother into the mix.

1920's: Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M return to the SWC, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, and Iowa St join the Western Conference

1930's: BC joins the EAC, Army and Navy decline the invite

1940's: the EAC and PCAA agree to meet annually in the Rose Bowl

1950's: Chicago downgrades, Mich moves to the EAC, Maryland's tif with the SoCon over bowling leads them to apply to the EAC--they are accepted and the league adopts the nickname Big Ten

1960's: Colorado helps found the WAC

1970's: The PAC 8 adds the AZ schools, Colorado, and Utah

1990's: SEC adds S Car & Ark, ACC adds FSU, Miami, VT, and WVU, the Big 10 possibly steals a pair from the Western Conference to make 12,

Overall I think Rutgers and Temple never become big time; the Big East never has its football foray. Colorado never moves east but ultimately goes west a few decades earlier than normal.

So by the '90s, something like this?

ACC (11): Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami-FL, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, West Virginia
Big Ten (10+2?): Boston College, Cincinnati, Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Syracuse
Pac-12: Arizona, Arizona State, California, Colorado, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Utah, Washington, Washington State
SEC (12): Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
SWC (10): Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Rice, SMU, TCU, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
Western (11-2?): Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Purdue, Wisconsin

Unknown: Kansas State, Louisville, Rutgers, etc.

Something like that. My general rule of thumb in these retroactives is that unless something impacts the league everything stays the same. So no early SEC-ACC movement.

The part I'm torn on is whether or not the revised SWC is strong enough to keep Arkansas in the fold.

Kansas St follows a similar path as Tulsa or Wichita St.

Rutgers accepts an invitation to be a Big East founder. Their football, along with Temple's, ends up being high level FCS. Temple's main conference is a little harder to predict because Villanova denied them entry to the BE and we have most of the original A-10 in other leagues.
05-19-2019 08:01 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fighting Muskie Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,433
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 83
I Root For: Ohio St, MAC
Location:
Post: #47
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
I have to amend my scenario. The first BC-ND game was not until the 1970s and the Eagles did not play Pitt or Syracuse consistently until the the 70s as well. I see little impetus for them to be included in this hypothetical conference.

Maryland is also a huge question mark. They were disgruntled in 1953 but I don't know that there was mutual attraction between the Terps and powers at be in this league.

My revised scenario looks more like this:

In the 1950s Michigan decides to join the more successful league that has ND, Mich St, Ohio St, Cincy, Pitt, Penn St, and Syracuse in it. This paves the way for schools like Purdue and Northwestern to make similar moves leading to a 10 team conference. ND likely demands that the number of conference games be low to accomodate rivalries with Army and Navy. (The annual USC-ND series that began in 1926 never materializes because conference membership allows the Irish to schedule closer to home)

The result is that a weakened Western Conference and Big 7 combine to form the Big 12:

South: Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, K St, Nebraska, Mizzou,
North: Iowa St, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana


This 1950s merger probably means no partial Big 8/SWC merger which might mean some Texas schools accompany Arkansas to the SEC in the early 90s.
It's hard to say what happens with BC football. They either decline and join Rutgers and Temple as weak eastern independents since they struggle to schedule significant competition or maybe they hang on and join a major conference in the 1990s or 2000s.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2019 03:26 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
05-19-2019 03:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
MKPitt Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 769
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 38
I Root For: Pitt
Location:
Post: #48
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
It’s interesting to think about what programs would have been “major” enough to join that hypothetical OSU conference over the years. I think most would agree that any hypothetical east coast league centered around Ohio State at that time would have included Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse and Notre Dame. Michigan State almost certainly would have been included as well. Then as most have suggested, Michigan probably eventually would have shifted over to this league.

As for the rest, I agree with Nerdlinger that it’s likely WVU would have been included at some point in the first half of the 20th century if not in the initial group. Their schedules included many more major programs than any of the other possible teams and I’m not sure that the schools included would have cared much about WVU’s academic reputation considering most of them (PSU, Pitt and Syracuse) were already playing WVU anyway.

My hypothesis is that the league may have actually invited Temple as the 9th team. Temple soon after made the decision to de-emphasize football around 1950 but if an invitation was available to this conference in the ‘30s and ‘40s they would have jumped on it and they actually usually played a more major schedule than Rutgers and BC at this point. For example, Temple already played MSU from 38-42, 47 and 49; Syracuse from 1944-1950; Penn State almost every year from 40-52 and Pitt around 5 times during this period.

Boston College and Rutgers were not playing these opponents on a regular basis at this time and really played very few major teams in general.

I agree that when Maryland left the Southern Conference they probably would have come here instead of the ACC. There was a lot of animosity at the time.

BC, Rutgers and Virginia Tech could possibly be later additions to get to 12 or it could be such an attractive conference that it could poach schools like Wisconsin or Illinois from the west or even a school like Virginia from the ACC
05-19-2019 03:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 1,967
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 87
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: :uoᴉʇɐɔo⌉
Post: #49
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
Tweaked my timeline to have Michigan State (Michigan Agricultural at the time) a founding member of the EAC, West Virginia to join in the '20s instead of being a founding member, and Boston College to join in the '90s rather than the '30s.
05-19-2019 08:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Nerdlinger Offline
Realignment Enthusiast
*

Posts: 1,967
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 87
I Root For: Realignment!
Location: :uoᴉʇɐɔo⌉
Post: #50
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-19-2019 03:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I have to amend my scenario. The first BC-ND game was not until the 1970s and the Eagles did not play Pitt or Syracuse consistently until the the 70s as well. I see little impetus for them to be included in this hypothetical conference.

Maryland is also a huge question mark. They were disgruntled in 1953 but I don't know that there was mutual attraction between the Terps and powers at be in this league.

My revised scenario looks more like this:

In the 1950s Michigan decides to join the more successful league that has ND, Mich St, Ohio St, Cincy, Pitt, Penn St, and Syracuse in it. This paves the way for schools like Purdue and Northwestern to make similar moves leading to a 10 team conference. ND likely demands that the number of conference games be low to accomodate rivalries with Army and Navy. (The annual USC-ND series that began in 1926 never materializes because conference membership allows the Irish to schedule closer to home)

The result is that a weakened Western Conference and Big 7 combine to form the Big 12:

South: Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, K St, Nebraska, Mizzou,
North: Iowa St, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana


This 1950s merger probably means no partial Big 8/SWC merger which might mean some Texas schools accompany Arkansas to the SEC in the early 90s.
It's hard to say what happens with BC football. They either decline and join Rutgers and Temple as weak eastern independents since they struggle to schedule significant competition or maybe they hang on and join a major conference in the 1990s or 2000s.

The impetus for schools like BC and Rutgers to get invites would come from the TV market mantra, assuming that becomes a thing in this timeline.
05-19-2019 09:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Scoochpooch1 Offline
Bench Warmer
*

Posts: 150
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 9
I Root For: P4
Location:
Post: #51
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-10-2019 12:06 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 01:21 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  The private school in Indiana does what it has always done: march to their own drums. So pencil them out.

Virginia Tech - This is the one football school that I could see joining such a conference. They'd immediately stretch into Virginia and maybe pull in an NC State or another program in the South

West Virginia - makes sense as a twofer with VT

Penn State - would have enough partners in the East to make it work for them

Maryland - as an additive to VT and WVU

Michigan State - Would quickly find its footing even without their in-state rival or the private school in South Bend.

Would this conference try to pull in Wisconsin and Michigan to its orbit? Would Kentucky find this too tempting to pass up?

If Michigan and Wisconsin stay put then they'd eventually add Nebraska and Missouri to get to ten.

Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Illinois
Northwestern
Purdue
Iowa
Indiana
Michigan
Wisconsin

The Ohio Conference might look like this:

Ohio State
Michigan State
Penn State
Virginia Tech
Maryland
West Virginia
Kentucky
Pittsburgh

Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan State and occasionally West Virginia would provide some basketball gravitas but it would be clear that football is the prime focus.


The SEC sans Kentucky would look into adding South Carolina, Florida State, Clemson, Arkansas, Louisville or Miami. Big 8 remnants would still merge with part of the SWC but would Iowa State make it or forced to go indy? Perhaps the Texas schools would look different but maybe Arkansas would be part of this if the SEC takes South Carolina. Colorado might still jump West but the PAC then wasn't in a strong enough position to pull them in.

Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Arkansas
Colorado
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
penciling Iowa State here because I don't know how Texas politics would have operated before the 1990s, so I'm assuming that Arkansas would be enough to pacify the Texas group

I would assume that the ACC and the remaining independents would still fight it out in the East. Maybe Navy and Rutgers, as well as Syracuse and Boston College, eventually join the ACC.

The School With No Name (ND) may have joined a conference like this one around the time it was seeking (and was rejected/blackballed) membership in the then Western Conference (Big Ten).

After all, it was actively seeking conference membership at the time.

But, after the rejection, Rockne took them barnstorming across the country, the rest is history and the die was cast for a hundred or more years of independence.

So, for those who dislike ND's current position.....blame Michigan.

If this fantasy league had occurred prior to the barnstorming days, who knows?

So, for those who dislike ND's current position.....blame...ND.
Your denial of their ridiculous setup is confounding. The school was once great so they are allowed to be included in everything without joining a conference. I will never understand why they aren't blocked from the CFP. Under the same logic, the Canadiens should get a berth into the Eastern Conference Finals each year automatically.
I used to want ND to join the Big Ten. Now, I don't care which but just make a decision already.
05-20-2019 10:37 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
zoocrew Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 675
Joined: Mar 2019
Reputation: 17
I Root For: PITT, NAVY, MBB
Location:
Post: #52
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
JoePa wanted a conference of

Penn State
Pitt
Temple
Maryland
West Virginia
Virginia Tech
Syracuse
Rutgers
Boston College
UConn

Would have made too much sense
05-20-2019 11:01 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 11,849
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 537
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Mouth of Wilson, VA
Post: #53
RE: What if: Ohio St never joins the B10, starts its own conference
(05-20-2019 10:37 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 12:06 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(05-10-2019 01:21 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  The private school in Indiana does what it has always done: march to their own drums. So pencil them out.

Virginia Tech - This is the one football school that I could see joining such a conference. They'd immediately stretch into Virginia and maybe pull in an NC State or another program in the South

West Virginia - makes sense as a twofer with VT

Penn State - would have enough partners in the East to make it work for them

Maryland - as an additive to VT and WVU

Michigan State - Would quickly find its footing even without their in-state rival or the private school in South Bend.

Would this conference try to pull in Wisconsin and Michigan to its orbit? Would Kentucky find this too tempting to pass up?

If Michigan and Wisconsin stay put then they'd eventually add Nebraska and Missouri to get to ten.

Minnesota
Missouri
Nebraska
Illinois
Northwestern
Purdue
Iowa
Indiana
Michigan
Wisconsin

The Ohio Conference might look like this:

Ohio State
Michigan State
Penn State
Virginia Tech
Maryland
West Virginia
Kentucky
Pittsburgh

Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan State and occasionally West Virginia would provide some basketball gravitas but it would be clear that football is the prime focus.


The SEC sans Kentucky would look into adding South Carolina, Florida State, Clemson, Arkansas, Louisville or Miami. Big 8 remnants would still merge with part of the SWC but would Iowa State make it or forced to go indy? Perhaps the Texas schools would look different but maybe Arkansas would be part of this if the SEC takes South Carolina. Colorado might still jump West but the PAC then wasn't in a strong enough position to pull them in.

Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Arkansas
Colorado
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
penciling Iowa State here because I don't know how Texas politics would have operated before the 1990s, so I'm assuming that Arkansas would be enough to pacify the Texas group

I would assume that the ACC and the remaining independents would still fight it out in the East. Maybe Navy and Rutgers, as well as Syracuse and Boston College, eventually join the ACC.

The School With No Name (ND) may have joined a conference like this one around the time it was seeking (and was rejected/blackballed) membership in the then Western Conference (Big Ten).

After all, it was actively seeking conference membership at the time.

But, after the rejection, Rockne took them barnstorming across the country, the rest is history and the die was cast for a hundred or more years of independence.

So, for those who dislike ND's current position.....blame Michigan.

If this fantasy league had occurred prior to the barnstorming days, who knows?

So, for those who dislike ND's current position.....blame...ND.
Your denial of their ridiculous setup is confounding. The school was once great so they are allowed to be included in everything without joining a conference. I will never understand why they aren't blocked from the CFP. Under the same logic, the Canadiens should get a berth into the Eastern Conference Finals each year automatically.
I used to want ND to join the Big Ten. Now, I don't care which but just make a decision already.

Football conference membership is not some holy writ from Yahweh or something, it is just a business arrangement that most schools prefer or have to do.

ND has made plenty of decisions:

Football independent, ACC for 24 sports, Big Ten for hockey. There, that is 3 decisions.

ND doesn't want to and will not join the Big Ten in any other sports, most particularly not for football, ever.

That hasn't really been an issue since 1999. Why are you still worried about this?

Do you dislike BYU and Army as well for being football independents and having their other sports in a conference?

IF Michigan had not blackballed them, ND would have joined the Big Ten a hundred years ago and never would have been a football independent, so my initial point stands. Blame Michigan.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2019 02:26 PM by TerryD.)
05-20-2019 01:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2019 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2019 MyBB Group.