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professorbum Offline
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football attendance story
Another news story on sham attendance figures. For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games. You need actual fans to generate excitement. Someday the conferences will realize this, but it will be too late to save G5 football. Schools like NDSU will not want to join a G5 version of Big East Football-in-its-final-death-throes.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/nati...-divisions
05-07-2019 04:28 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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RE: football attendance story
Pairing NDSU-FB with NKU-nonFB would be a slam dunk add for the MAC. If we can ever convince Marshall to rejoin that would be my dream MAC.
05-07-2019 06:11 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: football attendance story
If the numbers reported in the article for Miami (O) are accurate, that would mean that for the past three years Miami has actually averaged 4,330 fans per home game.

Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce, especially when it comes to the MAC. I don't believe they have any stomach for a lawsuit that would be brought if they tried to relegate the MAC to the FCS.
05-07-2019 06:29 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the numbers reported in the article for Miami (O) are accurate, that would mean that for the past three years Miami has actually averaged 4,330 fans per home game.

Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce, especially when it comes to the MAC. I don't believe they have any stomach for a lawsuit that would be brought if they tried to relegate the MAC to the FCS.

That's ridiculous. And the truth is even worse.

One of their 17 home games in the last 3 years was against Cincinnati in 2017, which had reported attendance of 21,811. That number is probably legit because UC fans will show up.

I've never been to Miami for that game, but I've heard that Miami doesn't sell single-game tickets for the UC game. Instead, they require you to buy a season ticket or multi-game package. I don't know the particulars, but I think some other UC or Miami fans could enlighten us on that one.
05-07-2019 06:45 PM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce,

That is so true. Oh they'll slap around Cal Poly just to make people think they are to be feared. But tampering with 1A football or men's basketball, that's tampering with the cash cow, and the television partners wouldn't stand for it (let alone the state legislatures and the congressional delegation).

College sports have become such big business, so intertwined with budgets, debt, marketing, enrollment, brand, status, etc., it literally has become "too big to fail".
05-07-2019 06:52 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  Another news story on sham attendance figures. For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games. You need actual fans to generate excitement. Someday the conferences will realize this, but it will be too late to save G5 football. Schools like NDSU will not want to join a G5 version of Big East Football-in-its-final-death-throes.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/nati...-divisions


How would adding NDSU help attendance at Miami-O? You might get some traveling from the Dakotas, but not a great number. And NDSU isn't going to make a Miami-O game more attractive for a local.

Add in the bloated travel costs to Fargo, not a solution.
05-07-2019 06:58 PM
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goofus Offline
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RE: football attendance story
I am not sure if I understand.

If Miami-OH is buying 10,000 seats a game. Does that mean basicly those are free tickets that they give away?
05-07-2019 07:52 PM
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professorbum Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 06:58 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  Another news story on sham attendance figures. For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games. You need actual fans to generate excitement. Someday the conferences will realize this, but it will be too late to save G5 football. Schools like NDSU will not want to join a G5 version of Big East Football-in-its-final-death-throes.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/nati...-divisions


How would adding NDSU help attendance at Miami-O? You might get some traveling from the Dakotas, but not a great number. And NDSU isn't going to make a Miami-O game more attractive for a local.

Add in the bloated travel costs to Fargo, not a solution.

Respectfully, your comment exemplifies the lack of vision I'm talking about. Nothing is going to immediately fix the attendance at Miami if they have 4,000 people at a game. But I'm talking about making the MAC a better conference by adding teams who give a $hit. You know, teams with actual fans. Having teams with a fan base, which then intensifies rilvaries, makes it more interesting for casual fans and more likely that outsiders will pay attention to the conference. But you're counting the nickels and dimes of travel. Meanwhile, Miami is buying 10,000 tickets a game. But hey, at least they can bus their team to another empty stadium in Ypsilanti.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2019 09:23 PM by professorbum.)
05-07-2019 09:22 PM
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mikeinsec127 Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  Another news story on sham attendance figures. For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games. You need actual fans to generate excitement. Someday the conferences will realize this, but it will be too late to save G5 football. Schools like NDSU will not want to join a G5 version of Big East Football-in-its-final-death-throes.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/nati...-divisions

Put the schools from the Dakotas in the MAC playing on Wednesday nights and see what their attendance looks like. IMPO, both the MAC and ESPN could both benefit in moving all the games back to Saturday. Then ESPN could pick the best games to show taped delayed as MACnation games of the week.
05-07-2019 09:48 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 09:22 PM)professorbum Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:58 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  Another news story on sham attendance figures. For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games. You need actual fans to generate excitement. Someday the conferences will realize this, but it will be too late to save G5 football. Schools like NDSU will not want to join a G5 version of Big East Football-in-its-final-death-throes.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/nati...-divisions


How would adding NDSU help attendance at Miami-O? You might get some traveling from the Dakotas, but not a great number. And NDSU isn't going to make a Miami-O game more attractive for a local.

Add in the bloated travel costs to Fargo, not a solution.

Respectfully, your comment exemplifies the lack of vision I'm talking about. Nothing is going to immediately fix the attendance at Miami if they have 4,000 people at a game. But I'm talking about making the MAC a better conference by adding teams who give a $hit. You know, teams with actual fans. Having teams with a fan base, which then intensifies rilvaries, makes it more interesting for casual fans and more likely that outsiders will pay attention to the conference. But you're counting the nickels and dimes of travel. Meanwhile, Miami is buying 10,000 tickets a game. But hey, at least they can bus their team to another empty stadium in Ypsilanti.

Nonsense no one in the Mac is going to be excited about playing North Dakota State on a Wednesday night and no fans are going to travel
05-07-2019 10:45 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce

The point of having any dividing line at all between FBS and FCS is that every FBS football program should deploy some minimum level of resources to be FBS-level competitive. (I'd argue that the dividing line is unnecessary, and that each D-I football-playing school should be free to choose either FBS or FCS as long as all but one of their football games are against schools in their own subdivision, but I suppose that's another topic.)

The correct minimum standards are number of players on scholarship, having a full complement of paid coaches and staff, and spending some minimum amount of money on football each year. The NCAA shies away from enforcing those real markers of competitiveness. For some reason they landed on attendance instead, and maybe the lack of interest in enforcing an attendance requirement is related to the fact that everyone knows that it's not an important factor in whether a program is competing at an FBS level (whatever that is). Yes, paid ticket sales are a good source of revenue, but what makes a program sufficiently competitive is whether there is enough money being spent on football, not where that money comes from.
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2019 01:04 AM by Wedge.)
05-08-2019 01:02 AM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-08-2019 01:02 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce

The point of having any dividing line at all between FBS and FCS is that every FBS football program should deploy some minimum level of resources to be FBS-level competitive. (I'd argue that the dividing line is unnecessary, and that each D-I football-playing school should be free to choose either FBS or FCS as long as all but one of their football games are against schools in their own subdivision, but I suppose that's another topic.)

The correct minimum standards are number of players on scholarship, having a full complement of paid coaches and staff, and spending some minimum amount of money on football each year. The NCAA shies away from enforcing those real markers of competitiveness. For some reason they landed on attendance instead, and maybe the lack of interest in enforcing an attendance requirement is related to the fact that everyone knows that it's not an important factor in whether a program is competing at an FBS level (whatever that is). Yes, paid ticket sales are a good source of revenue, but what makes a program sufficiently competitive is whether there is enough money being spent on football, not where that money comes from.

"Competitive" in what sense? Not necessarily on the field, as it's perfectly possible to spend X amount of dollars on football and still lose all kinds of games on the field.

I agree with you that attendance is a poor marker, and as a squishy one lends itself to accounting chicanery. But I am not sure that an input, dollars spent, is a good measure of an output, "competitiveness".
05-08-2019 07:24 AM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 06:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the numbers reported in the article for Miami (O) are accurate, that would mean that for the past three years Miami has actually averaged 4,330 fans per home game.

Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce, especially when it comes to the MAC. I don't believe they have any stomach for a lawsuit that would be brought if they tried to relegate the MAC to the FCS.

That's ridiculous. And the truth is even worse.

One of their 17 home games in the last 3 years was against Cincinnati in 2017, which had reported attendance of 21,811. That number is probably legit because UC fans will show up.

I've never been to Miami for that game, but I've heard that Miami doesn't sell single-game tickets for the UC game. Instead, they require you to buy a season ticket or multi-game package. I don't know the particulars, but I think some other UC or Miami fans could enlighten us on that one.

ARticle from the student newspaper that actually did the research

In Miami’s game against University of Cincinnati during the 2017 season, 13,006 people attended, but 21,881 were announced.

Only 36.1 percent of the tickets announced in the 2017 football season were actually scanned.

Looking at the NCAA's 2017 numbers, Miami-O averaged 16,444. 36% of that is 5914.

If you take out the Cincinnati game (Miami-O is one hour away from Cincinnati, plus it was Miami-O's homecoming), it looks like an average of 3566 in the stands. [/i]
05-08-2019 07:35 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-08-2019 07:35 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the numbers reported in the article for Miami (O) are accurate, that would mean that for the past three years Miami has actually averaged 4,330 fans per home game.

Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce, especially when it comes to the MAC. I don't believe they have any stomach for a lawsuit that would be brought if they tried to relegate the MAC to the FCS.

That's ridiculous. And the truth is even worse.

One of their 17 home games in the last 3 years was against Cincinnati in 2017, which had reported attendance of 21,811. That number is probably legit because UC fans will show up.

I've never been to Miami for that game, but I've heard that Miami doesn't sell single-game tickets for the UC game. Instead, they require you to buy a season ticket or multi-game package. I don't know the particulars, but I think some other UC or Miami fans could enlighten us on that one.

ARticle from the student newspaper that actually did the research

In Miami’s game against University of Cincinnati during the 2017 season, 13,006 people attended, but 21,881 were announced.

Only 36.1 percent of the tickets announced in the 2017 football season were actually scanned.

Looking at the NCAA's 2017 numbers, Miami-O averaged 16,444. 36% of that is 5914.

If you take out the Cincinnati game (Miami-O is one hour away from Cincinnati, plus it was Miami-O's homecoming), it looks like an average of 3566 in the stands. [/i]

Let's face it: Of the 130 or so FBS programs, probably only about 50 of them should be playing FBS, in the sense that the football program is actually voluntarily supported by fans, alumni, and students with money sufficient to fund the program.

The others are running deficits or soaking students with mandatory fees or otherwise juggling the books desperately to keep a team on the field for God Knows What Reason, usually rooted in Administrator ego about being a "Big Time" University or some other unproven nonsense.
05-08-2019 07:39 AM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 06:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  If the numbers reported in the article for Miami (O) are accurate, that would mean that for the past three years Miami has actually averaged 4,330 fans per home game.

Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce, especially when it comes to the MAC. I don't believe they have any stomach for a lawsuit that would be brought if they tried to relegate the MAC to the FCS.

That's ridiculous. And the truth is even worse.

One of their 17 home games in the last 3 years was against Cincinnati in 2017, which had reported attendance of 21,811. That number is probably legit because UC fans will show up.

I've never been to Miami for that game, but I've heard that Miami doesn't sell single-game tickets for the UC game. Instead, they require you to buy a season ticket or multi-game package. I don't know the particulars, but I think some other UC or Miami fans could enlighten us on that one.

A few of the many issues Miami has is:

A) Most of their students are fans of other programs
B) It’s not easy for an alum to get to a game. Traveling to Oxford is a pain in the arse for even the alums that live in Greater acinconnati or Dayton. Pretty much only one way to get there
C) they’ve sucked for a long time now. Big Ben was 16 years ago. Miami hasn’t Been Miami in a consistent basis since the 70s. The 80s was bad and the 90s were competitive, but not cartel busting.
D) as bad as their football is, their basketball is even worse. Terrible arena filled with 500 of your closest friends. Wally World was 20 years. If they had any momentum in hoops maybe it would spill over into fan growth in football but it is not there.
05-08-2019 07:40 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games.

Because the conferences are not independent actors, they are agents of their current members. NDSU packing 20,000 in their dome and fielding a competitive team doesn't butter the bread of Miami of Ohio or Central Michigan. HAving the Bison come to town instead of EMU or Buffalo or NIU isn't going to make Miami-O students want to go to the stadium and watch the game.

You know what you call a college football fan at a MAC school? A Buckeye/Wolverines fan.
05-08-2019 07:42 AM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-08-2019 07:42 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games.

Because the conferences are not independent actors, they are agents of their current members. NDSU packing 20,000 in their dome and fielding a competitive team doesn't butter the bread of Miami of Ohio or Central Michigan. HAving the Bison come to town instead of EMU or Buffalo or NIU isn't going to make Miami-O students want to go to the stadium and watch the game.

You know what you call a college football fan at a MAC school? A Buckeye/Wolverines fan.

Or Notre Dame. Half the student body at Miami is from Illinois. Schools that rely on populations outside of their state always suffer in attendance (see Tulane and Tulsa).
05-08-2019 07:47 AM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-08-2019 01:02 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:29 PM)ken d Wrote:  Essentially, the NCAA has no minimum standard they are willing to enforce

The point of having any dividing line at all between FBS and FCS is that every FBS football program should deploy some minimum level of resources to be FBS-level competitive. (I'd argue that the dividing line is unnecessary, and that each D-I football-playing school should be free to choose either FBS or FCS as long as all but one of their football games are against schools in their own subdivision, but I suppose that's another topic.)

The correct minimum standards are number of players on scholarship, having a full complement of paid coaches and staff, and spending some minimum amount of money on football each year. The NCAA shies away from enforcing those real markers of competitiveness. For some reason they landed on attendance instead, and maybe the lack of interest in enforcing an attendance requirement is related to the fact that everyone knows that it's not an important factor in whether a program is competing at an FBS level (whatever that is). Yes, paid ticket sales are a good source of revenue, but what makes a program sufficiently competitive is whether there is enough money being spent on football, not where that money comes from.

Well they do have standards (think its 90% of the 85 scholarship limit). They require 16 NCAA sports (its 14 for other Division I members) and a certain number of scholarships for all athletes (think its 200). Attendance and stadium size were the first standards. When they lacked the stomach to enforce that and the various ways to finagle attendance (17,000 at that point), they added the scholarship and sports requirements and a 15,000 paid attendance requirement. They have not enforced the 15,000 paid.
05-08-2019 08:17 AM
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RE: football attendance story
(05-07-2019 10:45 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 09:22 PM)professorbum Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 06:58 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(05-07-2019 04:28 PM)professorbum Wrote:  Another news story on sham attendance figures. For the life of me, I honestly don't know why conferences like the MAC or MWC don't beg schools like NDSU to join, given that they have a real fan following who actually attend games. You need actual fans to generate excitement. Someday the conferences will realize this, but it will be too late to save G5 football. Schools like NDSU will not want to join a G5 version of Big East Football-in-its-final-death-throes.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/nati...-divisions


How would adding NDSU help attendance at Miami-O? You might get some traveling from the Dakotas, but not a great number. And NDSU isn't going to make a Miami-O game more attractive for a local.

Add in the bloated travel costs to Fargo, not a solution.

Respectfully, your comment exemplifies the lack of vision I'm talking about. Nothing is going to immediately fix the attendance at Miami if they have 4,000 people at a game. But I'm talking about making the MAC a better conference by adding teams who give a $hit. You know, teams with actual fans. Having teams with a fan base, which then intensifies rilvaries, makes it more interesting for casual fans and more likely that outsiders will pay attention to the conference. But you're counting the nickels and dimes of travel. Meanwhile, Miami is buying 10,000 tickets a game. But hey, at least they can bus their team to another empty stadium in Ypsilanti.

Nonsense no one in the Mac is going to be excited about playing North Dakota State on a Wednesday night and no fans are going to travel

Miami has been historically strong, but they have been awful for most of the last 10 years. The MAC is also playing weeknight games.
05-08-2019 08:18 AM
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RE: football attendance story
Temple had one year in the 90s when they drew 17,000 fans....for the ENTIRE season....in the BIG EAST!

A few years back they averaged over 40k (helped by a Penn St. game). The last 3 years have averaged 27-28k. If anybody was a basket case it was Temple, but they have found their way back.
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2019 08:22 AM by bullet.)
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