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why do liberals think what they think?
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Niner National Offline
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Post: #41
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
(04-21-2019 12:57 PM)q5sys Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 09:53 AM)Niner National Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 12:30 AM)EagleX Wrote:  I sent a few feelers out via PM.

we spend a lot of time arguing basic talking points, but I have become curious.


I am a conservative republican, first, because i want to fully fund the miltary.

but what I love most about conservatism is that it leaves me alone. I am allowed to live my life as I see fit.

I am allowed to live my life at my individual liberty to make whatever choices that I may. If I make bad choices, then I have a problem.

If I make good choices, then I become successful.

Out of curiosity what does fully fund the military mean in your mind? We increase spending in military virtually every year. Where do you eventually draw the line? We outspent most other world powers combined...yet its still not fully funded?

There's several parts of 'military funding'. One half is the actual logistical stuff: bases, salaries, Benefits, etc. Then you have the purchase of actual goods: guns, bullets, gear, planes, ships, etc.
Then you have the cash cow... "R&D", where a firm is hired to do research to develop 'A Thing'. They get paid regardless of whether there are end up being any deliverables at all.
Vanity Fair did an excellent article on SAIC over 10 years ago, and its well worth the read.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/03/spyagency200703

The problem is that the logistical funding gets skimped on to that they can fund 'R&D Projects'. So you have troops not getting the things they need to do their jobs effectively, because billions of dollars is blown every year on things that rarely amount to anything. I dont know how things are now, but I know during my time with the USAF and later after I got out with the CSS, it was estimated that around 20% of total funding.
Thank you for explaining this for me.
04-22-2019 09:40 AM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #42
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
(04-21-2019 09:26 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  To the OP,

I’m guessing paint chips as a child?

Am I close?

you 'left' out "lead" (Pb).... 03-wink
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2019 11:06 AM by stinkfist.)
04-22-2019 11:05 AM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #43
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
(04-21-2019 10:14 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 09:25 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 09:19 AM)king king Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 09:15 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 09:11 AM)king king Wrote:  I'm not a liberal so can't answer why they think what they do.

Yours was pretty spot on, I'd say. Nothing there for me to add.

I don't suspect any liberals to answer, tbh.

Take a shot at it. You can be a conservative or a libertarian or nothing.

Define liberal. We talking classic liberal? We talking progressive? Are we simply calling leftists liberals? There's a very broad spectrum here.
Agreed liberal is the wrong word, go with progressive SJW.

There are liberals, but the activists in the Democratic party are progressives now. There is a huge difference.

I'm still trying to figure out how advocating socialism is "progressive"....

all I see are sig lines 3 and 4....
04-22-2019 11:11 AM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #44
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
(04-21-2019 03:49 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 01:34 PM)Kronke Wrote:  It all revolves around the college scam.

Democrats convinced an entire generation of kids to go to college when they knew it was worthless, and now they all have $100k+ in debt with zero prospects. So, they are open to the government controlling their lives in exchange for the idea of getting something free, and the sick pleasure they get at taking it from someone that earned it they see as retribution.

It's really that simple.


I fear you are mostly correct.

I see a dichotomy here, kid goes to kollege and comes out with significant debt, AOL isn’t hiring anymore and wegmans doesn’t pay the bills. I can understand/ see them looking for a “way out”.

Or, parents work, save, scrimp, pass on vacations, drive beaters instead of the latest Range Rover or Ford Intrusion or whatever, graduate virtually debt free and perhaps all parties involved can look forward to better times going forward.

Then some dunce like the Bern, fake injun or the drug pushers friend comes along and wants these VERY SAME PEOPLE to pay for everybody else’s kids for the next 60 yrs.

So where’s the sweet spot?

I’d say trade schools, 2 yrs of CC then “college” or where it’s likely going- online college while still under mommy and daddy’s roof.

Doesn’t cost me 30k a year to heat and cool the bedroom upstairs that I heat and cool anyway...

take a wild guess how I've "funded" my daughter....

the 'SS' can lick my lick white one....
04-22-2019 11:14 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
(04-21-2019 12:57 PM)q5sys Wrote:  There's several parts of 'military funding'. One half is the actual logistical stuff: bases, salaries, Benefits, etc. Then you have the purchase of actual goods: guns, bullets, gear, planes, ships, etc.
Then you have the cash cow... "R&D", where a firm is hired to do research to develop 'A Thing'. They get paid regardless of whether there are end up being any deliverables at all.
Vanity Fair did an excellent article on SAIC over 10 years ago, and its well worth the read.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/03/spyagency200703
The problem is that the logistical funding gets skimped on to that they can fund 'R&D Projects'. So you have troops not getting the things they need to do their jobs effectively, because billions of dollars is blown every year on things that rarely amount to anything. I dont know how things are now, but I know during my time with the USAF and later after I got out with the CSS, it was estimated that around 20% of total funding.

What's even worse about all that R&D is that we end up spending tons on cutting edge technology that is not quite ready for prime time. Examples:
- The Navy's USS Gerald Ford, our newest aircraft carrier, is 110,000 tons of innovation. It has an electromagnetic catapult system (EMALS) to launch aircraft, where previous carriers used steam. It has a computerize recovery systems for airplanes landing. It has an ingenious system of weapons elevators to brings bombs and bullets up from the magazines to the flight deck. Except none of that works. So we spent $15 billion and up on a carrier that can do everything except launch aircraft, recover them, and arm them. And it carries about 2/3 the number of aircraft that our 80,000 ton carriers did in my day.
- The F-35 is a single aircraft designed to meet three separate needs--an interceptor/fighter, an attack/bomber aircraft, and a short takeoff (STOVL) airplane for the Marines. It's probably going to end up costing more than it would have cost to build three separate purpose-build aircraft. And the. compromises mean that it is not quite as good at any of the three missions as it should be. It is not as maneuverable as a top-line fighter should be and the housing for the STOVL lift fans blocks the pilot's view aft. It cannot carry the bomb load that you want from an attack aircraft and it doesn't have long enough legs. It's probably okay for the Marines, but something smaller would have worked better.
- The LCS, the Navy's littoral combat ship, was designed to do 45 knots. Not entirely why that much speed was needed, but everything else was sacrificed to get it. It has a 2-inch popgun as main armament. It was designed to accommodate mission modules for various tasks--anti-submarine warfare (ASW), mine countermeasures (MCM)--but none of the modules work yet. The engines are too noisy to permit the ASW sonar to function properly. I don't know why anyone would ever want to tool around a minefield at 45 knots. The ships are built of aluminum to save weight for speed, but the aluminum helicopter deck isn't sturdy enough to handle anything but our smallest helos. And that 45 knot power plant has never actually made 45 knots, but it is too complicated to maintain effectively, and the first several to deploy ended up being towed home.

Our R&D and procurement folks get obsessed with shiny new gadgets, totally ignoring the reality that in every war known in history, reliability was the most effective and efficient attribute for weapons systems to have.

I think there are a couple of things we can do about it.
1) If you are involved in procurement of weapon systems, then you cannot go to work for any manufacturer of any system you supported or approved for at least 10 years after retirement. Do, and you forfeit your retirement.
2) For the Navy, at least, I think we should consider what the Brits do. They have two career paths for line officers--deck/warfare and engineering. The 1st Engineer is co-equal with the 1st Lieutenant (basically equivalent to our XO), both reporting directly to the Captain. The engineers run the ship and te deck/warfare officers navigate and fight the ship. Only the deck/warfare types can have command at sea. The engineering types command shore facilities and ship design and maintenance activities. The engineering types are less likely to fall in love with cutesy shiny things, and more likely to worry about whether something will actually work or not.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2019 12:27 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-22-2019 11:24 AM
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q5sys Offline
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Post: #46
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
(04-22-2019 11:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-21-2019 12:57 PM)q5sys Wrote:  There's several parts of 'military funding'. One half is the actual logistical stuff: bases, salaries, Benefits, etc. Then you have the purchase of actual goods: guns, bullets, gear, planes, ships, etc.
Then you have the cash cow... "R&D", where a firm is hired to do research to develop 'A Thing'. They get paid regardless of whether there are end up being any deliverables at all.
Vanity Fair did an excellent article on SAIC over 10 years ago, and its well worth the read.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/03/spyagency200703
The problem is that the logistical funding gets skimped on to that they can fund 'R&D Projects'. So you have troops not getting the things they need to do their jobs effectively, because billions of dollars is blown every year on things that rarely amount to anything. I dont know how things are now, but I know during my time with the USAF and later after I got out with the CSS, it was estimated that around 20% of total funding.

What's even worse about all that R&D is that we end up spending tons on cutting edge technology that is not quite ready for prime time. Examples:
- The Navy's USS Gerald Ford, our newest aircraft carrier, is 110,000 tons of innovation. It has an electromagnetic catapult system (EMALS) to launch aircraft, where previous carriers used steam. It has a computerize recovery systems for airplanes landing. It has an ingenious system of weapons elevators to brings bombs and bullets up from the magazines to the flight deck. Except none of that works. So we spent $15 billion and up on a carrier that can do everything except launch aircraft, recover them, and arm them.
- The F-35 is a single aircraft designed to meet three separate needs--an interceptor/fighter, an attack/bomber aircraft, and a short takeoff (STOVL) airplane for the Marines. It's probably going to end up costing more than it would have cost to build three separate purpose-build aircraft. And the. compromises mean that it is not quite as good at any of the three missions as it should be. It is not as maneuverable as a top-line fighter should be and the housing for the STOVL lift fans blocks the pilot's view aft. It cannot carry the bomb load that you want from an attack aircraft and it doesn't have long enough legs. It's probably okay for the Marines, but something smaller would have worked better.
- The LCS, the Navy's littoral combat ship, was designed to do 45 knots. Not entirely what that much speed was needed, but everything else was sacrificed to get it. It has a 2-inch popgun as main armament. It was designed to accommodate mission modules for various tasks--anti-submarine warfare (ASW), mine countermeasures (MCM)--but none of the modules work yet. The engines are too noisy to permit the ASW sonar to function properly. I don't know why anyone would ever want to tool around a minefield at 45 knots. Te ships are built of aluminum to save weight for speed, but the aluminum helicopter deck isn't sturdy enough to handle anything but our smallest helos. And that 45 knot power plant has never actually made 45 knots, but it is too complicated to maintain effectively, and the first several to deploy ended up being towed home.

Our R&D and procurement folks get obsessed with shiny new gadgets, totally ignoring the reality that in every war known in history, reliability was the most effective and efficient attribute for weapons systems to have.

I think there are a couple of things we can do about it.
1) If you are involved in procurement of weapon systems, then you cannot go to work for any manufacturer of any system you supported or approved for at least 10 years after retirement. Do, and you forfeit your retirement.
2) For the Navy, at least, I think we should consider what the Brits do. They have two career paths for line officers--deck/warfare and engineering. The 1st Engineer is co-equal with the 1st Lieutenant (basically equivalent to our XO), both reporting directly to the Captain. The engineers run the ship and te deck/warfare officers navigate and fight the ship. Only the deck/warfare types can have command at sea. The engineering types command shore facilities and ship design and maintenance activities. The engineering types are less likely to fall in love with cutesy shiny things, and more likely to worry about whether something will actually work or not.

I'm not sure where the fault of that lands. Part of me wants to blame the generals who are approving this stuff, but really they're just believing what they are told because they don't have the engineering or scientific background needed to truly understand these systems.
So for me, I still blame the contractors. They've overselling systems that aren't finished and aren't reliable. They aren't worried because when a fault is found they can get the contract to fix it. I'm having a brain fart at the moment, but this happened with the F22. There was a issue that needed to be fixed and I believe Lockheed won the contract to fix it.

When this is allowed to continue it lets Suppliers skim on quality of deliverables because they can make even more money fixing it.

Regular people don't accept this. If you buy a new car and the brakes don't lights don't work half the time, you expect it to be fixed for free. You aren't willing to go back to the dealership and buy a new light system. But that's what the military is ok with doing. That has got to stop.

I'm still amazed at the quality of our old military gear. B17s flying home with half their tail wing blown off, or half the engines dead. The Jeep was cheap, light, agile, and could go pretty much anywhere. Was the Jeep the safest thing ever, no, but it wasn't meant to be a tank. The JLTV is over 14,000 lbs, compared to the Jeeps 2400lbs. The JLTV costs 250k each 400-500k equipped. The Jeep cost $738.74 a piece.

Yes I know economics are different now and war is different now, but i'm using that as an example to explain. The JLTV is a very capable vehicle, but the engineering and design is not worth twice that of a Ferrari.

Design firms know the game their playing.
04-22-2019 12:20 PM
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q5sys Offline
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Post: #47
RE: why do liberals think what they think?
There's also the problem of lost equipment: https://sputniknews.com/military/2016022...equipment/
"US Task Force Hunting $2.2Bln Military Equipment ‘Lost’ in Afghanistan"
04-22-2019 12:27 PM
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