Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Some football schedule notes
Author Message
temchugh Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,393
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 17
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #81
RE: Some football schedule notes
Bailiff last four years:

2014: 8-5
2015: 5-7
2016: 3-9
2017: 1-11

Bloomgren should (and will) get four years. I would hope/expect to be back to eight wins by his fourth year; with further improvement after that. This stuff takes time.
07-12-2019 01:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #82
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 01:28 PM)temchugh Wrote:  Bailiff last four years:

2014: 8-5
2015: 5-7
2016: 3-9
2017: 1-11

Bloomgren should (and will) get four years. I would hope/expect to be back to eight wins by his fourth year; with further improvement after that. This stuff takes time.

Why?
07-12-2019 03:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #83
RE: Some football schedule notes
2018: 2-11
2019: 1.5-10.5 Projected*
2020: 6-6 Minimum expected result
2021: 8-4 MER

A couple questions:
1) Why is 2019 ESPN projected record at 1.5 wins? So why no progress? Rice beat ODU which went into VT and beat them. So, CUSA has the talent to beat a P5 program on the road and if Rice beat ODU then Rice should have the current ability to replicate the conditions that let ODU beat VT and other CUSA teams.
2) Is it the schemes (coaching) or the players ability to execute the schemes that project to 1.5 wins in 2019?
3) How does experience impact win projections? Is it just that they will execute the system better? If this is the case, it still implies that the athleticism of Rice is still less than that of other CUSA teams. And if this is the case, wouldn't one expect the other teams to improve their execution with experience as well? And if they do, what will then make Rice more successful?
4) When should we expect Rice to have the players necessary to execute the current schemes? And is there any guarantee Rice will get them?

I just don't see Rice so far behind the rest of CUSA in talent, schemes, or desire that they can't win more than 1 game right now and that it will take 2 more years to do so.

Granted, we just need to see what actually happens on the field this year. And hopefully it is something good.
07-12-2019 04:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fort Bend Owl Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 28,343
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 448
I Root For: An easy win
Location:

The Parliament Awards
Post: #84
RE: Some football schedule notes
I don't think ESPN (or Phil Steele) or any of the services have any idea what Rice will be like this season. If our graduate transfers are better than last year's graduate transfers (and by all indications they are significantly better), we will be much, much better on offense. Defensively, we're going to have to hope for added maturity and strength among our younger starters who certainly showed in CUSA play at least that they could get the job done.

Put it this way, how many freshmen were we starting at the end of 2018? How many are we likely to start total in 2019 (maybe 2 or 3 tops as long as we stay healthy - possibly the kicker Hoban and then maybe 1 DL and 1 secondary guy down the road?).

My feeling is if we survive the first month of the season relatively healthy, we have a chance at a .500 season and minor bowl game. That might be a bit much to hope for but let's see what happens before we pile on with the doom and gloom.
07-12-2019 05:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #85
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 05:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I don't think ESPN (or Phil Steele) or any of the services have any idea what Rice will be like this season. If our graduate transfers are better than last year's graduate transfers (and by all indications they are significantly better), we will be much, much better on offense. Defensively, we're going to have to hope for added maturity and strength among our younger starters who certainly showed in CUSA play at least that they could get the job done.
Put it this way, how many freshmen were we starting at the end of 2018? How many are we likely to start total in 2019 (maybe 2 or 3 tops as long as we stay healthy - possibly the kicker Hoban and then maybe 1 DL and 1 secondary guy down the road?).
My feeling is if we survive the first month of the season relatively healthy, we have a chance at a .500 season and minor bowl game. That might be a bit much to hope for but let's see what happens before we pile on with the doom and gloom.

For all the cussing and moaning about how bad CUSA is, the fact that it is so bad means that a little improvement can mean several wins. I have pretty much the same expectations you do, in part because I expect that by midseason several of our CUSA opponents will be mailing it in.

If we don't win more games this year, and possibly significantly more, then I will have the same questions about Bloomgren that I had about Bailiff after 2009.
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2019 05:58 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-12-2019 05:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
OptimisticOwl Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 58,536
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation: 854
I Root For: Rice
Location: DFW Metroplex

The Parliament AwardsNew Orleans BowlFootball GeniusCrappiesDonatorsDonators
Post: #86
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:14 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:18 AM)owler Wrote:  
(07-11-2019 05:49 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(07-11-2019 04:26 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I think the real issue on how far the team 'grows' will be evidenced by the CUSA record.

First 4 games I dont think Rice will win any of them.

La Tech
N Texas
Marshall ---- most likely losses

La Tech ---- first CUSA game after the killer four that Rice starts with. My guess a loss. If the team the coaches expect to come out the first game bloom fully --- maybe a 25% chance to win,

UAB
Middle Tenn ---- depends on which team emerges from the 4 first games. I can see losing both of these, but if the coaches expectations are on track, we might be able to win 1 or 2 of them.

UTSA
UTEP --- I actually expect to win both of these. If Rice gets clobbered by La Tech and UAB, UTSA will be a loss. If Rice doesnt win against any of So Miss, Marshall, Midd Tenn, and North Texas ---- look at very good possibility of a winless year.

My call here is between 1 and 4 wins, but this is going to be very dependent on how much the team tracks the coaches' expectations coming out of the very tough beginning 4 games. At 0 wins or 1 win, I dont think I would be a happy camper for the ability of the coaches.

I'll come right out and say it: If we win 0 or 1, I will call for launching Bloomgren. We won't do it, of course, because Rice, but it would be warranted. I can give a new coach a pass for year 1 (although plenty of new coaches manage to turn things around in year 1; naturally, we failed to get that kind of guy). But given the general fungibility of talent at this level/in this conference, there simply is no excuse for no progress (much less going backwards) in year 2. Not the schedule, not the cupboard, not injuries . . . don't want to hear it. Show progress *in the win column* or it's next man up IMO.

Here's hoping he moots all of this before we even get into November!

It took Jeff Monken two seasons to get on the winning track, it may take Bloom same.

Ah, but in his 1st year, Monken won more games than his predecessor had in the previous year (or the 2 years before that, I might add). So that earned him some leeway for the step back in year 2. In contrast, 2018 with Bloomgren was not an improvement over 2017 with Bailiff (the extra tick in the win column was due to a 13th game with a mediocre FCS opponent). There has to be *some* improvement in 2019, or else.

Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?


My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.

If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.
07-12-2019 07:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #87
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.
07-12-2019 08:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #88
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

What is flawless execution?
07-12-2019 08:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
OptimisticOwl Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 58,536
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation: 854
I Root For: Rice
Location: DFW Metroplex

The Parliament AwardsNew Orleans BowlFootball GeniusCrappiesDonatorsDonators
Post: #89
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:06 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

What is flawless execution?

what is crispness?
07-12-2019 08:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #90
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:06 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.
My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."
But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.
I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.
What is flawless execution?

Kind of doing things the way you would.
07-12-2019 08:13 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #91
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:06 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

What is flawless execution?

what is crispness?

Well...
I was asking sincerely. The issue I have is trying to understand what expectations are and what people look for.
As an example, a receiver can be taught to run an out. And to run that out, they need to take 10 steps and be at 12 yards and roll over their outside plant foot and carry their speed through the cut. They may execute it crisply and flawlessly. And the QB took his 5 step drop and threw the ball without a hitch and threw it to the perfect spot where the receiver should be with his 12 yard route. The problem is that if the flat coverage jumps the route and gets a pick 6. The result is a crappy play that was executed crisply and flawlessly. If the QB and receiver are graded on executing what they were taught then they graded out well even though the play didn't work. Or do you grade out the play and fail the players. Or fail the OC for calling an out against that particular coverage.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Teach what is really important and execute success. Not static steps for a dynamic process.
07-12-2019 08:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
OptimisticOwl Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 58,536
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation: 854
I Root For: Rice
Location: DFW Metroplex

The Parliament AwardsNew Orleans BowlFootball GeniusCrappiesDonatorsDonators
Post: #92
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:26 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:06 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

What is flawless execution?

what is crispness?

Well...
I was asking sincerely. The issue I have is trying to understand what expectations are and what people look for.
As an example, a receiver can be taught to run an out. And to run that out, they need to take 10 steps and be at 12 yards and roll over their outside plant foot and carry their speed through the cut. They may execute it crisply and flawlessly. And the QB took his 5 step drop and threw the ball without a hitch and threw it to the perfect spot where the receiver should be with his 12 yard route. The problem is that if the flat coverage jumps the route and gets a pick 6. The result is a crappy play that was executed crisply and flawlessly. If the QB and receiver are graded on executing what they were taught then they graded out well even though the play didn't work. Or do you grade out the play and fail the players. Or fail the OC for calling an out against that particular coverage.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Teach what is really important and execute success. Not static steps for a dynamic process.

I was not insincere. I do not know what his definition of crispness is. i don't even know how I would define it.
07-12-2019 09:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #93
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:26 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Well...
I was asking sincerely. The issue I have is trying to understand what expectations are and what people look for.
As an example, a receiver can be taught to run an out. And to run that out, they need to take 10 steps and be at 12 yards and roll over their outside plant foot and carry their speed through the cut. They may execute it crisply and flawlessly. And the QB took his 5 step drop and threw the ball without a hitch and threw it to the perfect spot where the receiver should be with his 12 yard route. The problem is that if the flat coverage jumps the route and gets a pick 6. The result is a crappy play that was executed crisply and flawlessly. If the QB and receiver are graded on executing what they were taught then they graded out well even though the play didn't work. Or do you grade out the play and fail the players. Or fail the OC for calling an out against that particular coverage.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Teach what is really important and execute success. Not static steps for a dynamic process.

But that would neither be crispness nor flawless execution. Flawless execution would mean anticipating and reading the flat coverage, and going elsewhere with the ball if the flat coverage threatens to jump the route. That's the problem I have with a lot of coaches. If the receiver takes his 10 steps and makes the proper cut, and the QB makes his drop and throws the ball on time, but it gets picked, that's not flawless execution, that's somebody screwed up. Maybe it's the play call, maybe it's the failure of the QB and/or receiver to read the defense and anticipate the break. But I'm including all of those factors in execution and crispness.

To distinguish a bit, crispness to me is more things like avoiding false starts and other pre-snap violations, getting into the right formation and running the right play, situational awareness, basically stuff other than actual play execution. Execution involves not just taking the proper 10 steps before the cut or the 5 step drop and releasing on time, but rather also knowing what is the strategic and tactical situation and how that should drive action.

Maybe it comes from my rugby background where situations are more fluid, but I like the OODA or OADA decision model (observe, orient/analyze, decide, act). Don't just know to take 10 steps and cut, but know why, and also know if and when you should take maybe 9 or 11 steps. I guess that's why I like option and run-and-shoot offenses, because so much decision-making occurs after the snap.

I have always understood your approach, RU, to be based to a significant extent on these concepts.
07-13-2019 10:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #94
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-13-2019 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:26 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Well...
I was asking sincerely. The issue I have is trying to understand what expectations are and what people look for.
As an example, a receiver can be taught to run an out. And to run that out, they need to take 10 steps and be at 12 yards and roll over their outside plant foot and carry their speed through the cut. They may execute it crisply and flawlessly. And the QB took his 5 step drop and threw the ball without a hitch and threw it to the perfect spot where the receiver should be with his 12 yard route. The problem is that if the flat coverage jumps the route and gets a pick 6. The result is a crappy play that was executed crisply and flawlessly. If the QB and receiver are graded on executing what they were taught then they graded out well even though the play didn't work. Or do you grade out the play and fail the players. Or fail the OC for calling an out against that particular coverage.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Teach what is really important and execute success. Not static steps for a dynamic process.

But that would neither be crispness nor flawless execution. Flawless execution would mean anticipating and reading the flat coverage, and going elsewhere with the ball if the flat coverage threatens to jump the route. That's the problem I have with a lot of coaches. If the receiver takes his 10 steps and makes the proper cut, and the QB makes his drop and throws the ball on time, but it gets picked, that's not flawless execution, that's somebody screwed up. Maybe it's the play call, maybe it's the failure of the QB and/or receiver to read the defense and anticipate the break. But I'm including all of those factors in execution and crispness.

To distinguish a bit, crispness to me is more things like avoiding false starts and other pre-snap violations, getting into the right formation and running the right play, situational awareness, basically stuff other than actual play execution. Execution involves not just taking the proper 10 steps before the cut or the 5 step drop and releasing on time, but rather also knowing what is the strategic and tactical situation and how that should drive action.

Maybe it comes from my rugby background where situations are more fluid, but I like the OODA or OADA decision model (observe, orient/analyze, decide, act). Don't just know to take 10 steps and cut, but know why, and also know if and when you should take maybe 9 or 11 steps. I guess that's why I like option and run-and-shoot offenses, because so much decision-making occurs after the snap.

I have always understood your approach, RU, to be based to a significant extent on these concepts.

I don't know if you recall, but there was a baseball discussion about pitchers executing the called pitch independent of the outcome. If the pitch was executed as called, then the pitcher was graded well despite the fact that the ball sailed over the fence.

The question is if players can change the outcome with OADA. As you know, that would place decision making in the hands of the player. Coaches hate that. And it gets to the core issue of what impacts successful execution. Some coaches actually think it is the sequencing of specific tasks. You, and I, think it is the adaptation of certain tasks to a situation to create success. Ironically, you brought up a contentious example with the 9 or 11 steps. The steps is a quantifiable metric to monitor technique. However, it can be altered to your advantage. With all things even, to go from 10 to 9 or 11 steps you would have to drop step at the LOS, a big no no. If you try to break out on your inside foot for an out, it is very hard and another big no no. Fortunately, if you take the flight vector of the ball, the really important factor is to place yourself upon that vector at a time that is equal to the amount of time that it would take to take 10 steps and break out to the anticipated vector. So, steps become less important which makes it a less important metric to monitor and adhere to.
07-13-2019 11:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #95
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 09:05 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:26 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:06 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

What is flawless execution?

what is crispness?

Well...
I was asking sincerely. The issue I have is trying to understand what expectations are and what people look for.
As an example, a receiver can be taught to run an out. And to run that out, they need to take 10 steps and be at 12 yards and roll over their outside plant foot and carry their speed through the cut. They may execute it crisply and flawlessly. And the QB took his 5 step drop and threw the ball without a hitch and threw it to the perfect spot where the receiver should be with his 12 yard route. The problem is that if the flat coverage jumps the route and gets a pick 6. The result is a crappy play that was executed crisply and flawlessly. If the QB and receiver are graded on executing what they were taught then they graded out well even though the play didn't work. Or do you grade out the play and fail the players. Or fail the OC for calling an out against that particular coverage.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Teach what is really important and execute success. Not static steps for a dynamic process.

I was not insincere. I do not know what his definition of crispness is. i don't even know how I would define it.

I know you weren't.
07-13-2019 12:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ruowls Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,894
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 86
I Root For:
Location:

Football Genius
Post: #96
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-13-2019 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:26 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Well...
I was asking sincerely. The issue I have is trying to understand what expectations are and what people look for.
As an example, a receiver can be taught to run an out. And to run that out, they need to take 10 steps and be at 12 yards and roll over their outside plant foot and carry their speed through the cut. They may execute it crisply and flawlessly. And the QB took his 5 step drop and threw the ball without a hitch and threw it to the perfect spot where the receiver should be with his 12 yard route. The problem is that if the flat coverage jumps the route and gets a pick 6. The result is a crappy play that was executed crisply and flawlessly. If the QB and receiver are graded on executing what they were taught then they graded out well even though the play didn't work. Or do you grade out the play and fail the players. Or fail the OC for calling an out against that particular coverage.
This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Teach what is really important and execute success. Not static steps for a dynamic process.

But that would neither be crispness nor flawless execution. Flawless execution would mean anticipating and reading the flat coverage, and going elsewhere with the ball if the flat coverage threatens to jump the route. That's the problem I have with a lot of coaches. If the receiver takes his 10 steps and makes the proper cut, and the QB makes his drop and throws the ball on time, but it gets picked, that's not flawless execution, that's somebody screwed up. Maybe it's the play call, maybe it's the failure of the QB and/or receiver to read the defense and anticipate the break. But I'm including all of those factors in execution and crispness.

To distinguish a bit, crispness to me is more things like avoiding false starts and other pre-snap violations, getting into the right formation and running the right play, situational awareness, basically stuff other than actual play execution. Execution involves not just taking the proper 10 steps before the cut or the 5 step drop and releasing on time, but rather also knowing what is the strategic and tactical situation and how that should drive action.

Maybe it comes from my rugby background where situations are more fluid, but I like the OODA or OADA decision model (observe, orient/analyze, decide, act). Don't just know to take 10 steps and cut, but know why, and also know if and when you should take maybe 9 or 11 steps. I guess that's why I like option and run-and-shoot offenses, because so much decision-making occurs after the snap.

I have always understood your approach, RU, to be based to a significant extent on these concepts.

Since we are going down this rabbit hole....

How do you quantify decision making? Especially when it is arbitrary. There are certain quantifiable skills you can be proficient at in sport. You start with the basics of football and you build. Stance, athletic position, memorize formations and proper alignment, routes, tracks, meshes, throwing mechanics, and blocks are some of the basic building blocks. Then there is the position specific techniques. Then there is teaching what to observe and how to analyze what you observe. This is the variable that can impact performance significantly. It is also the variable that can let one player or team be different. Football doesn't have to be standardized. The beauty of the game is that it shouldn't be. Tendencies are basically one's attempt to standardize. And that can be used to an opponent's advantage. How do you game plan against OADA? The decision and action isn't standardized or consistent. It is only specific to that instance. You aren't invoking a specific response to Cover 3 (the observation). You are observing the flat coverage in that specific instance of Cover 3 and analyzing that and then deciding on a plan of action. And that would be based on the skills you have and the loose expectations of timing of the play and general adherence to some of the techniques you have been taught. But ultimately, it is the decision and action chosen in this instance that leads to success. Not running 10 steps or throwing it to a predetermined spot at a predetermined time. Granted, the time factor is important in incorporating pass protection and negating the rush. So, there are some parameters you can't really change. So, knowing where you can adjust and where you can't is an important skill to learn (experience).
07-13-2019 01:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
illiniowl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,162
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #97
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

I don't think a coach should get year 3 if he showed no improvement in wins in years 1 and 2. Bloomgren did not improve the win total in year 1. Ergo, for me, he must at a minimum do so in year 2. This is not a low bar to clear -- literally it would take only 2 wins -- but there needs to be at least some kind of bar.
07-13-2019 01:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
OptimisticOwl Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 58,536
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation: 854
I Root For: Rice
Location: DFW Metroplex

The Parliament AwardsNew Orleans BowlFootball GeniusCrappiesDonatorsDonators
Post: #98
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-13-2019 01:02 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 08:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 07:43 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-12-2019 12:26 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  Question for you and anyone else for that matter: what would your metric for improvement be if we don't show significant progress in the wins column?
My metric is wins, period. Win by a point, win in a rout, win ugly, win in good weather, win in bad weather...just win.
If we have a 1-11 or worse year, i cannot imagine what anybody could point to as improvement.

My metric is always wins. "You are what your record says you are."

But I also care about how the team looks. I never thought Bailiff would be able to sustain winning because 1) he didn't at Texas State, and 2) his teams always looked sloppy and disorganized to me. After 2009, I was ready to let him go. Although I will be disappointed if we don't improve materially this year, I think it is reasonable to give Bloomgren the same three years that I gave Bailiff. Certainly after year two, I still didn't believe his approach would work, but I was willing to give him a chance. For me, 2009 was that chance and he flunked it.

I want to see a team that plays crisply and executes flawlessly (or as close to flawlessly as possible). If we get that, against the caliber of opponents in CUSA, I think the record will take care of itself.

I don't think a coach should get year 3 if he showed no improvement in wins in years 1 and 2. Bloomgren did not improve the win total in year 1. Ergo, for me, he must at a minimum do so in year 2. This is not a low bar to clear -- literally it would take only 2 wins -- but there needs to be at least some kind of bar.

i wanted 3-4 wins last year, and at least that much this year. We are a year behind schedule after a year.
07-13-2019 01:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
WRCisforgotten79 Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,600
Joined: May 2007
Reputation: 50
I Root For: Rice
Location: Houston
Post: #99
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-13-2019 01:47 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i wanted 3-4 wins last year, and at least that much this year. We are a year behind schedule after a year.

Were you as adamant regarding "progress" under Bailiff? If so, please give cite particular posts.
07-13-2019 02:41 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
tanqtonic Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 19,111
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 775
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #100
RE: Some football schedule notes
(07-13-2019 02:41 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(07-13-2019 01:47 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  i wanted 3-4 wins last year, and at least that much this year. We are a year behind schedule after a year.

Were you as adamant regarding "progress" under Bailiff? If so, please give cite particular posts.

I guess people's attitudes should never change? If that's the case, tell me how I can cast a vote for President for Ross Perot in 2020.

In all honest I would hazard a number on this board are a little less forgiving after the the last three years of Bailiff. Myself included.
07-13-2019 03:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.