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Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
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GTFletch Offline
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Post: #1
Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
From the link posted below:

Even though they are treated equally as “independent Power opponents,” Power 5 programs are 24% more likely to beat the Cougars than the Irish. The other big take away is that Notre Dame has played 51 Power 5 foes since 2014 vs. BYU’s 23.

Next, here are BYU’s numbers vs. Power 5 foes compared to a handful of upper-level, though not elite, Group of 5 programs that are not universally accepted as Power opponents.In this sampling, Power 5 teams are 15% more likely to lose to USF, 11% more likely to lose to Cincinnati, and 5% more likely to fall to San Diego State than to BYU. To put it into further perspective, the Cougars are only 11% better in Power 5 action than Toledo.

The overall fix is for BYU to join a Power 5 conference, giving it not only a clear path to a title, but an opportunity to earn the concrete on-field respect it deserves.

Link
https://fbschedules.com/should-byu-count...-opponent/
04-17-2019 11:27 AM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
BYU has the facilities and fan base to be considered a P5 or at worst a tweener.
04-17-2019 12:17 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
The *only* reason this was ever a topic is that some conferences, as a public relations ploy, announced that every team in their conference would play at least one P5 non-conference opponent every year.

And then 10 seconds after that announcement was made, coaches who didn't want to beef up their schedules started trying to find a way around their conference's "rule". So they hatched this idea of "designated P5" opponents, where a team that didn't want to "schedule up" but already had BYU on the schedule could count BYU as their "designated P5 opponent". And then somebody added all the service academies to that "designated" list.

And then a few struggling Big Ten teams just wanted to pick anyone on their schedule and call them a "designated P5 opponent", and the Big Ten office said, fine, whatever. Which makes sense, honestly. There's no reason to insist that a team that usually finishes 6th or 7th in its division "must" schedule non-conference games against Oklahoma or Georgia, just so some conference commissioner can puff up his chest about tough schedules. The only teams for which we really care about tough schedules are teams that have some kind of a shot at winning the conference or being chosen for the playoff.

And that leads us to the conclusion that "designated P5 opponent" isn't really a thing, just like "Cocoa Puffs, a healthy way to start your day" is just advertising fluff and not really a thing.
04-17-2019 01:25 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 01:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The *only* reason this was ever a topic is that some conferences, as a public relations ploy, announced that every team in their conference would play at least one P5 non-conference opponent every year.

And then 10 seconds after that announcement was made, coaches who didn't want to beef up their schedules started trying to find a way around their conference's "rule". So they hatched this idea of "designated P5" opponents, where a team that didn't want to "schedule up" but already had BYU on the schedule could count BYU as their "designated P5 opponent". And then somebody added all the service academies to that "designated" list.

And then a few struggling Big Ten teams just wanted to pick anyone on their schedule and call them a "designated P5 opponent", and the Big Ten office said, fine, whatever. Which makes sense, honestly. There's no reason to insist that a team that usually finishes 6th or 7th in its division "must" schedule non-conference games against Oklahoma or Georgia, just so some conference commissioner can puff up his chest about tough schedules. The only teams for which we really care about tough schedules are teams that have some kind of a shot at winning the conference or being chosen for the playoff.

And that leads us to the conclusion that "designated P5 opponent" isn't really a thing, just like "Cocoa Puffs, a healthy way to start your day" is just advertising fluff and not really a thing.

Wedge,

This is not the real reason. The actual reason was a lack of sufficient opponents. Many P5 schools already are locked up in P5 OOC games (the famous ACC-SEC rivalries, ND California school rivalries and games with ACC schools, other built-in games like ISU-Iowa). And those who are available often don't have open dates that align, due to the conference schedules -- also many top schools lock into "Kickoff" and other neutral site games taking them off the board. So it was difficult for all the schools to find a P5 OOC opponent every year (usually jsust a couple pre-conference weekends possible to work) and still maintain 7 home games (a revenue issue).

Now if conferences like the P12, B12 and B1G were to allow schools to schedule OOC games after September (P12 only has the ND exception, and no road opponents after September, excepting ND in mid-October for Stanford/USC), there would be a lot more dates and opponents available.

(side note: B1G will almost certainly have to revisit this for Oklahoma membership --if that happens-- since Bedlam is a must for them in November; the P12 destroyed the BYU-Utah rivalry with it's restrictions on scheduling)

BYU is thus necessary due to their flexibility in scheduling. Frankly the P5 would like a 3rd counting Independent.

Now as for the "performance" issue, well, that is not really relevant. Illinois, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Kansas and some other low performing schools in P5 count as P5 opponents. So the criteria cannot be that, or any "moving index", as games are scheduled several years in advance. BYU the argument goes, plays 5 or 6 P5 opponents most years (they have one with just 3 or 4 in there), plus a couple strong G5 opponents like Boise State thrown in (e.g., Houston, San Diego State). So their SoS is higher than nearly all G5 every year. It makes them a 'tweener.

Now Performance comes and goes. People on this board suffer from "this years results will be what happens going forward forever" mentality, and they fail to look at coaching cycles and such. BYU has opportunity to make a major Bowl with their schedule, just as Rutgers, Kansas, Vanderbilt, Oregon State and Boston College have. It comes down to execution, which means the coaching staff to recruit and deliver. BYU doesn't have that coaching staff now (and may never get it), but that is another issue.

Anyway, the biggest reason for the BYU exception is logistics. (Another factor has been the lobbying by Tom Holmoe, who is well respected by the ADs Nationally ... contrast that to Daniel J. White's whining about Florida's 2 for 1 on how to lobby the P5 successfully)
04-17-2019 02:12 PM
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Gamecock Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
BYU is a P5 level Program due to fanbase, history, and a relative recent history. Maybe not a high level P5, but at least a low to mid level one.

Frankly, I think you could lump several other G5 schools into this category too. What looks better on a resume, a win over UCF/Houston or a win over Duke?
04-17-2019 02:14 PM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:14 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  BYU is a P5 level Program due to fanbase, history, and a relative recent history. Maybe not a high level P5, but at least a low to mid level one.

Frankly, I think you could lump several other G5 schools into this category too. What looks better on a resume, a win over UCF/Houston or a win over Duke?

A win over Duke. Why? Duke is a P5 program, a low level one but still a P5. That’s an argument G5 school fans have had since the BCS era.

Back to BYU, it’s odd the only two P5 leagues that don’t consider BYU a P5 for schedule purposes are the Pac-12 and Big XII. I wonder why.
04-17-2019 02:28 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 02:14 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  BYU is a P5 level Program due to fanbase, history, and a relative recent history. Maybe not a high level P5, but at least a low to mid level one.

Frankly, I think you could lump several other G5 schools into this category too. What looks better on a resume, a win over UCF/Houston or a win over Duke?

A win over Duke. Why? Duke is a P5 program, a low level one but still a P5. That’s an argument G5 school fans have had since the BCS era.

Back to BYU, it’s odd the only two P5 leagues that don’t consider BYU a P5 for schedule purposes are the Pac-12 and Big XII. I wonder why.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

If I'm looking at a school like Stanford or South Carolina, a win over a really good UCF team is better than a win over a bad Duke team. They why I'm saying these labels are sometimes dumb.

Not sure what you're getting with #2 either. I would say BYU is as good of a win as a lot of P5 teams. I don't know why the Pac 12 or Big 12 wouldn't accept it.
04-17-2019 03:32 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 02:14 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  BYU is a P5 level Program due to fanbase, history, and a relative recent history. Maybe not a high level P5, but at least a low to mid level one.

Frankly, I think you could lump several other G5 schools into this category too. What looks better on a resume, a win over UCF/Houston or a win over Duke?

A win over Duke. Why? Duke is a P5 program, a low level one but still a P5. That’s an argument G5 school fans have had since the BCS era.

Back to BYU, it’s odd the only two P5 leagues that don’t consider BYU a P5 for schedule purposes are the Pac-12 and Big XII. I wonder why.


Schools like Duke are more G5 school than a P5. Duke and Wake Forest get less than 30,000 fans in their stadium. Washington State is another one. Miami Florida always cooked their books, and I do think their actually fan attendance is less than 30,000 after seeing more than half their stadium is half empty on game day.
04-17-2019 03:40 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:12 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  the P12 destroyed the BYU-Utah rivalry with it's restrictions on scheduling

No. Utah and/or BYU themselves are responsible for any weakening or disruption in this rivalry, not the Pac-12. Utah chose to join the Pac-12, and BYU chose to go independent.
04-17-2019 03:47 PM
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templefootballfan Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
8 of B12 are looking for cupcakes
Pac12 plays BYU 3-5 times, play 10 p-5
With all Pac12 problems, their not using cupcake sch to get out of them
04-17-2019 03:56 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
With this logic Kansas should not count as a P5 opponent.
04-17-2019 04:02 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 03:47 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 02:12 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  the P12 destroyed the BYU-Utah rivalry with it's restrictions on scheduling

No. Utah and/or BYU themselves are responsible for any weakening or disruption in this rivalry, not the Pac-12. Utah chose to join the Pac-12, and BYU chose to go independent.

True. But it was awesome to finish the season with the Holy War rivalry game last year over Thanksgiving Weekend, as nature intended. Sad that it's a September game every other year....
04-17-2019 05:36 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 03:32 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 02:28 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 02:14 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  BYU is a P5 level Program due to fanbase, history, and a relative recent history. Maybe not a high level P5, but at least a low to mid level one.

Frankly, I think you could lump several other G5 schools into this category too. What looks better on a resume, a win over UCF/Houston or a win over Duke?

A win over Duke. Why? Duke is a P5 program, a low level one but still a P5. That’s an argument G5 school fans have had since the BCS era.

Back to BYU, it’s odd the only two P5 leagues that don’t consider BYU a P5 for schedule purposes are the Pac-12 and Big XII. I wonder why.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

If I'm looking at a school like Stanford or South Carolina, a win over a really good UCF team is better than a win over a bad Duke team. They why I'm saying these labels are sometimes dumb.

Not sure what you're getting with #2 either. I would say BYU is as good of a win as a lot of P5 teams. I don't know why the Pac 12 or Big 12 wouldn't accept it.

For #1 a win over Duke if you’re a G5 school is better than beating Boise State or Houston. If you’re a P5 then beating Boise looks better since they have football cred. For #2, I just find it odd the two conferences that are in BYU’s backyard don’t consider them as a P5 game. The Pac-12 likes playing BYU but they won’t let them join the conference while the Big XII apparently told BYU thanks but no thanks at the 11th hour. That’s it.
04-17-2019 06:40 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:12 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 01:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The *only* reason this was ever a topic is that some conferences, as a public relations ploy, announced that every team in their conference would play at least one P5 non-conference opponent every year.

And then 10 seconds after that announcement was made, coaches who didn't want to beef up their schedules started trying to find a way around their conference's "rule". So they hatched this idea of "designated P5" opponents, where a team that didn't want to "schedule up" but already had BYU on the schedule could count BYU as their "designated P5 opponent". And then somebody added all the service academies to that "designated" list.

And then a few struggling Big Ten teams just wanted to pick anyone on their schedule and call them a "designated P5 opponent", and the Big Ten office said, fine, whatever. Which makes sense, honestly. There's no reason to insist that a team that usually finishes 6th or 7th in its division "must" schedule non-conference games against Oklahoma or Georgia, just so some conference commissioner can puff up his chest about tough schedules. The only teams for which we really care about tough schedules are teams that have some kind of a shot at winning the conference or being chosen for the playoff.

And that leads us to the conclusion that "designated P5 opponent" isn't really a thing, just like "Cocoa Puffs, a healthy way to start your day" is just advertising fluff and not really a thing.

Wedge,

This is not the real reason. The actual reason was a lack of sufficient opponents. Many P5 schools already are locked up in P5 OOC games (the famous ACC-SEC rivalries, ND California school rivalries and games with ACC schools, other built-in games like ISU-Iowa). And those who are available often don't have open dates that align, due to the conference schedules -- also many top schools lock into "Kickoff" and other neutral site games taking them off the board. So it was difficult for all the schools to find a P5 OOC opponent every year (usually jsust a couple pre-conference weekends possible to work) and still maintain 7 home games (a revenue issue).

Now if conferences like the P12, B12 and B1G were to allow schools to schedule OOC games after September (P12 only has the ND exception, and no road opponents after September, excepting ND in mid-October for Stanford/USC), there would be a lot more dates and opponents available.

(side note: B1G will almost certainly have to revisit this for Oklahoma membership --if that happens-- since Bedlam is a must for them in November; the P12 destroyed the BYU-Utah rivalry with it's restrictions on scheduling)

BYU is thus necessary due to their flexibility in scheduling. Frankly the P5 would like a 3rd counting Independent.

Now as for the "performance" issue, well, that is not really relevant. Illinois, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Kansas and some other low performing schools in P5 count as P5 opponents. So the criteria cannot be that, or any "moving index", as games are scheduled several years in advance. BYU the argument goes, plays 5 or 6 P5 opponents most years (they have one with just 3 or 4 in there), plus a couple strong G5 opponents like Boise State thrown in (e.g., Houston, San Diego State). So their SoS is higher than nearly all G5 every year. It makes them a 'tweener.

Now Performance comes and goes. People on this board suffer from "this years results will be what happens going forward forever" mentality, and they fail to look at coaching cycles and such. BYU has opportunity to make a major Bowl with their schedule, just as Rutgers, Kansas, Vanderbilt, Oregon State and Boston College have. It comes down to execution, which means the coaching staff to recruit and deliver. BYU doesn't have that coaching staff now (and may never get it), but that is another issue.

Anyway, the biggest reason for the BYU exception is logistics. (Another factor has been the lobbying by Tom Holmoe, who is well respected by the ADs Nationally ... contrast that to Daniel J. White's whining about Florida's 2 for 1 on how to lobby the P5 successfully)

Both of you, and the fbsschedules writer for that matter, omit the biggest reason for the exceptions to "P5" opponents in scheduling. The conference rules requiring an additional "P5" matchup in out of conference scheduling are a sop to TV/media partners. Having invested a lot of money in the product, the TV/media partners want matchups that will be good inventory - fewer sisters of the poor games so that the broadcast partners will have games which will draw viewers.
Exceptions to "P5" out of conference scheduling requirements are about opponents with sufficient brand to garner viewership. BYU, with a national fanbase is an easy exception. Same with Army and Navy (before Navy's conference affiliation took away possibility of out of conference scheduling given three OOC annual matchups).
It's not about "power" per se, it is about being a good enough brand. Then other case by case exceptions, especially those already scheduled, were given consideration.
04-17-2019 07:38 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:14 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  BYU is a P5 level Program due to fanbase, history, and a relative recent history. Maybe not a high level P5, but at least a low to mid level one.

Frankly, I think you could lump several other G5 schools into this category too. What looks better on a resume, a win over UCF/Houston or a win over Duke?

It's a meaningless category. It's like saying: "Johns Hopkins is a better university than some of the schools in the Ivy League, therefore Johns Hopkins is a Designated Ivy League University." A label doesn't put Johns Hopkins into the Ivy League, and it doesn't take any school out of the Ivy League. It's a label with no meaning.
04-17-2019 07:57 PM
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Side Show Joe Offline
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
I count BYU as a power independent. They have a large fan base, which averaged over 52,000 per game last season. They have a National Title. And, they play the toughest schedule than any G5 program. Next season BYU will face 4 P5 programs (Utah, Tennessee, USC, & Washington), as well as 5 of the better G5 programs (Toledo, USF, Boise St., Utah St., & San Diego St.). If another program outside of a P5 conference can post a winning record playing against this level of competition, I'll accord them the same respect.
04-17-2019 08:34 PM
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Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
BYU is not a P school, they have not in the NCAA tourney for a few years. MWC have beaten them a lot the last few years in football.


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04-17-2019 11:34 PM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 08:34 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  I count BYU as a power independent. They have a large fan base, which averaged over 52,000 per game last season. They have a National Title. And, they play the toughest schedule than any G5 program. Next season BYU will face 4 P5 programs (Utah, Tennessee, USC, & Washington), as well as 5 of the better G5 programs (Toledo, USF, Boise St., Utah St., & San Diego St.). If another program outside of a P5 conference can post a winning record playing against this level of competition, I'll accord them the same respect.

Not once has BYU had the strongest SoS among G5 schools, and just in the past 2 years UCF, Houston, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, Boise(x2) have posted better records against harder schedules. So I guess you best put some respect on Tulane football.
04-18-2019 12:28 AM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
(04-17-2019 02:12 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(04-17-2019 01:25 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The *only* reason this was ever a topic is that some conferences, as a public relations ploy, announced that every team in their conference would play at least one P5 non-conference opponent every year.

And then 10 seconds after that announcement was made, coaches who didn't want to beef up their schedules started trying to find a way around their conference's "rule". So they hatched this idea of "designated P5" opponents, where a team that didn't want to "schedule up" but already had BYU on the schedule could count BYU as their "designated P5 opponent". And then somebody added all the service academies to that "designated" list.

And then a few struggling Big Ten teams just wanted to pick anyone on their schedule and call them a "designated P5 opponent", and the Big Ten office said, fine, whatever. Which makes sense, honestly. There's no reason to insist that a team that usually finishes 6th or 7th in its division "must" schedule non-conference games against Oklahoma or Georgia, just so some conference commissioner can puff up his chest about tough schedules. The only teams for which we really care about tough schedules are teams that have some kind of a shot at winning the conference or being chosen for the playoff.

And that leads us to the conclusion that "designated P5 opponent" isn't really a thing, just like "Cocoa Puffs, a healthy way to start your day" is just advertising fluff and not really a thing.

Wedge,

This is not the real reason. The actual reason was a lack of sufficient opponents. Many P5 schools already are locked up in P5 OOC games (the famous ACC-SEC rivalries, ND California school rivalries and games with ACC schools, other built-in games like ISU-Iowa). And those who are available often don't have open dates that align, due to the conference schedules -- also many top schools lock into "Kickoff" and other neutral site games taking them off the board. So it was difficult for all the schools to find a P5 OOC opponent every year (usually jsust a couple pre-conference weekends possible to work) and still maintain 7 home games (a revenue issue).

Now if conferences like the P12, B12 and B1G were to allow schools to schedule OOC games after September (P12 only has the ND exception, and no road opponents after September, excepting ND in mid-October for Stanford/USC), there would be a lot more dates and opponents available.

(side note: B1G will almost certainly have to revisit this for Oklahoma membership --if that happens-- since Bedlam is a must for them in November; the P12 destroyed the BYU-Utah rivalry with it's restrictions on scheduling)


BYU is thus necessary due to their flexibility in scheduling. Frankly the P5 would like a 3rd counting Independent.

Now as for the "performance" issue, well, that is not really relevant. Illinois, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Kansas and some other low performing schools in P5 count as P5 opponents. So the criteria cannot be that, or any "moving index", as games are scheduled several years in advance. BYU the argument goes, plays 5 or 6 P5 opponents most years (they have one with just 3 or 4 in there), plus a couple strong G5 opponents like Boise State thrown in (e.g., Houston, San Diego State). So their SoS is higher than nearly all G5 every year. It makes them a 'tweener.

Now Performance comes and goes. People on this board suffer from "this years results will be what happens going forward forever" mentality, and they fail to look at coaching cycles and such. BYU has opportunity to make a major Bowl with their schedule, just as Rutgers, Kansas, Vanderbilt, Oregon State and Boston College have. It comes down to execution, which means the coaching staff to recruit and deliver. BYU doesn't have that coaching staff now (and may never get it), but that is another issue.

Anyway, the biggest reason for the BYU exception is logistics. (Another factor has been the lobbying by Tom Holmoe, who is well respected by the ADs Nationally ... contrast that to Daniel J. White's whining about Florida's 2 for 1 on how to lobby the P5 successfully)


OU doesn't want to play bedlam in November. Oklahoma St does. That's a point in favor of OU leaving not a hindrance. They do not consider Oklahoma St a real rival in football. Nor should they. It's an arguement between them each year, Oklahoma wants it late October.

Football records:
OSU vs OU 18-88-7
Kansas vs OU 27-76-6
04-18-2019 01:02 AM
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RE: Why BYU should not count as a Power 5 opponent?
BYU is Notre Dame with a huge asterisk at the end of it.
04-18-2019 03:04 AM
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