(04-15-2019 01:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  It was built in the 1100s and survived multiple attacks with medieval siege equipment as well as desecration during the French Revolution. I may just not understand, but I find it hard to believe the whole thing would be engulfed due to a construction accident. Then there is this... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl...4144c64253

I don't, especially considering it is both a church and as old as it is. I would imagine that it's been renovated multiple times over the centuries and there are likely hundreds, if not thousands of hidden void spaces for fire to run out of sight only to pop out in a totally unexpected location. Church fires tend to burn hot, fast and are an absolute ***** to put out.

What will be gone, will be gone, nothing will change that fact.

But I hope it was caused by an innocent accident.

I still wouldn't be surprised if news of something more nefarious came out.

What sickens me more than anything, is the joy and celebration from Muslims on social media.

this is horrible. one cannot help but see the symbolism. one cannot help but wonder if others didn't see what a symbolic blow this would be.

Intentional or not Western Culture is being burned to the ground.

(04-15-2019 01:46 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(04-15-2019 01:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  It was built in the 1100s and survived multiple attacks with medieval siege equipment as well as desecration during the French Revolution. I may just not understand, but I find it hard to believe the whole thing would be engulfed due to a construction accident. Then there is this... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl...4144c64253

I don't, especially considering it is both a church and as old as it is. I would imagine that it's been renovated multiple times over the centuries and there are likely hundreds, if not thousands of hidden void spaces for fire to run out of sight only to pop out in a totally unexpected location. Church fires tend to burn hot, fast and are an absolute ***** to put out.

I would guess that all old wood and old tapestries burn pretty fast.

Anyone who doesn't suspect an intentional fire is being naive.

The smoke is very yellow from the various videos. I looked it up to see the cause of yellow smoke. Here's one summary I found on the causes of different colors of smoke.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/a...x?ID=72891

Most fires involve carbonaceous fuels such as wood, paper, plastics, petroleum, or textiles. When these fuels do not burn completely because of a deficiency of oxygen, the conversion of carbon into carbon dioxide and water is impeded; and free carbon, or soot, appears as smoke. Some fuels, such as alcohols and cellulose (cotton or paper, for example), contain oxygen and tend to burn cleanly when air diffuses into the flame. Insufficient oxygen can also lead to a yellow flame because unconverted carbon particles glow yellow hot. In addition, many common materials contain some sodium or other elements that give yellow or other colors to flames. Whether a flame is light yellow, orange-yellow, or reddish depends on the temperature of the flame. The hotter the flame, the lighter the color. White or light gray smoke is usually associated with paper, straw, leaves, or wood. It is formed of pyrolysis products (gasses, liquids, and tars) that condense to form a fog of tiny droplets that bypass the flame. Other sources of white smoke include burning phosphorus, magnesium, and some other metals, but fires containing these elements in sufficient quantity are rare. Most fires will produce a mixture of black, gray, and nearly white smoke because of the variety of fuels and the variability of air supply.

It doesn't seem like insufficient oxygen would be the cause. I guess it's just a very hot flame?

(04-15-2019 01:48 PM)No Bull Wrote:  this is horrible. one cannot help but see the symbolism. one cannot help but wonder if others didn't see what a symbolic blow this would be.

Intentional or not Western Culture is being burned to the ground.

See, I felt bad for thinking what a massive metaphor for the state of French culture, whether an accident as is likely or something nefarious; than I come over here and see other thinking along the same lines.

I had the opportunity to visit the place about 20 years ago, it truly was impressive to see.

It's also worth noting that today is the 6th anniversary of the Boston Marathon bombings. It could be coincidental or not.

(04-15-2019 02:07 PM)AppfanInCAAland Wrote:  

(04-15-2019 01:48 PM)No Bull Wrote:  this is horrible. one cannot help but see the symbolism. one cannot help but wonder if others didn't see what a symbolic blow this would be.

Intentional or not Western Culture is being burned to the ground.

See, I felt bad for thinking what a massive metaphor for the state of French culture, than I come over here and see other thinking along the same lines.

I had the opportunity to visit the place about 20 years ago, it truly was impressive to see.

I saw it about 20 years ago myself. Some historic places don't measure up to what you expect when you actually see them in person. The Notre Dame Cathedral did impress me in person. This really sucks.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/110...llipe-isis
Backup Link: http://archive.is/JzYd8

Quote:At least 10 incidents of vandalism and desecration of Catholic churches have been reported across the Channel since the beginning of February. French Roman-Catholic newspaper La Croix International reported how the attacks on churches took place across France. Senseless acts included the desecration of altars, the defacing of Christ on the cross and in an extreme case, human excrement being spread across the walls of a holy place of worship.

Quote:Mr Phillipe wrote: “In one week, in France, 5 degraded churches. In our secular Republic, places of worship are respected. Such acts shock me and must be unanimously condemned. I will tell the bishops of France at the meeting of the forum of dialogue with the Catholic Church,” he said.
The fresh wave of attacks come two years a campaign of Christian persecution against Catholic churches across France and Belgium in 2016.
The incidents were said to be carried out by the Islamic State (IS).
One of the most gruesome attacks included the murder of Fr. Jacques Hamel, who was killed by jihadists while holding Mass at a church in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray in Normandy.

No idea how it started, but a cathedral so symbolic in Western Christianity would truly be a coup of a target for Muslim extremists.

my only time in paris, wife and i were honeymooning in turkey and booked a flight home with a half day layover in paris. one of our friends was going to grad school an hour or so south and was going to meet us in front of notre dame. we somehow thought this was going to work even without cell phones and a delayed flight out of istanbul. we hurried across the seine immediately from the subway, unable to take in the waters tesla and so many others have swum. she is unmistakably found where she said she'd be. our friend waited a few hours for us in front of notre dame most likely not moving a foot if only for to treat us to fondue and wine, kiss and say goodbye

history is ripe with fires of this devastation, notoriety

edit; my french friend thomas said name the date and he'd treat us to an authentic fondue at his most likely lovable older suburban cincinnati estate. i accepted under the condition that in the future he host my fondon't party of doritos and that brick log of processed cheese you find in one of the various grocery store non refrigerated aisles. and pauly shore films

Muslims seem to be enjoying it,
https://twitter.com/DamienRieu/status/11...8531479552

Would OP please provide his evidence that it is definitively not terrror related?

I’d note that CNN saying so is not evidence, and I am not suggesting one way or the other, I just find it interesting that he can come to a definitive conclusion while the fire is still burning, meaning a proper investigation obviously hasn’t even begun yet.

This is a Covington type situation all over again. Your need to virtue signal in real time leads you to jump to conclusions that you can’t possibly know.

(04-15-2019 02:06 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The smoke is very yellow from the various videos. I looked it up to see the cause of yellow smoke. Here's one summary I found on the causes of different colors of smoke.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/a...x?ID=72891

Most fires involve carbonaceous fuels such as wood, paper, plastics, petroleum, or textiles. When these fuels do not burn completely because of a deficiency of oxygen, the conversion of carbon into carbon dioxide and water is impeded; and free carbon, or soot, appears as smoke. Some fuels, such as alcohols and cellulose (cotton or paper, for example), contain oxygen and tend to burn cleanly when air diffuses into the flame. Insufficient oxygen can also lead to a yellow flame because unconverted carbon particles glow yellow hot. In addition, many common materials contain some sodium or other elements that give yellow or other colors to flames. Whether a flame is light yellow, orange-yellow, or reddish depends on the temperature of the flame. The hotter the flame, the lighter the color. White or light gray smoke is usually associated with paper, straw, leaves, or wood. It is formed of pyrolysis products (gasses, liquids, and tars) that condense to form a fog of tiny droplets that bypass the flame. Other sources of white smoke include burning phosphorus, magnesium, and some other metals, but fires containing these elements in sufficient quantity are rare. Most fires will produce a mixture of black, gray, and nearly white smoke because of the variety of fuels and the variability of air supply.

It doesn't seem like insufficient oxygen would be the cause. I guess it's just a very hot flame?

My very educated guess is the coloration of the smoke is the result of a hot fire that is burning faster than the oxygen can be replaced. The coloration of the smoke is caused by an incomplete burn due to oxygen starvation and the smoke containing highly flammable gases. Eventually it will either burn through or part of the structure will fail and there will be a spectacular fireball as that column of smoke ignites. With a fire this size there will be speculation that an explosive device went off. We call them smoke explosions.

Here's one demonstrated during a controlled burn. Notice the coloration of the smoke.





When we rolled up on a structure fire pumping smoke like that we tried to ventilate the structure ASAP before making entry.

(04-15-2019 02:21 PM)smudge12 Wrote:  

(04-15-2019 02:14 PM)Lush Wrote:  history is ripe with fires of this devastation, notoriety

This is the truth.

I understand our grand structures represent the connection between past and present, but the engineer in me knows every structure - from tiny homes to iconic castles - will die one day. From the Great Pyramids to the US Capitol, each will succumb to something. It's just a matter of who will witness it and today it's us which witness the death of Notre Dame.

But from this there'll be great opportunity for this generation to leave something even better for future ones.

like this one?

I'm not saying it is terrorism or it isn't, but I can see how it's construction related. I know in some historical buildings electric or power tools are not allowed due to the spark caused in the small motor could cause a fire, so therefore you have to use skilled tradesmen who could use tools from the time and age the building was constructed.

If they laxed the rule and someone used a tool and a small spark could of caused the fire or they used something with a generator, it could've easily happened.

i dont know how long this link will still work, but someone recorded their phone looking at the names of all the people using the laughing Emoji on a facebook post.

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1555354466190.webm

(04-15-2019 02:26 PM)gdunn Wrote:  I'm not saying it is terrorism or it isn't, but I can see how it's construction related. I know in some historical buildings electric or power tools are not allowed due to the spark caused in the small motor could cause a fire, so therefore you have to use skilled tradesmen who could use tools from the time and age the building was constructed.

If they laxed the rule and someone used a tool and a small spark could of caused the fire or they used something with a generator, it could've easily happened.

On the NBC stream I was watching they mentioned that the work was mostly on stone and plaster work to address the issue of some of the older gargoyles falling apart.

Stone doesn't catch fire from a cigarette or from sparks from a motor. The fire wouldn't have started from Stone Work.