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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
The difference between spying and surveillance is the legality of the actions.

Spying is illegal... even against foreign nations. It's not against OUR laws to spy on Russia, but clearly it's against theirs.

All comey is saying is that he believed (or believes) that the court ordered spying was legal... and of course he does... because he wouldn't admit to knowingly being complicit in an illegal action.
04-12-2019 06:44 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 02:07 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 01:29 PM)cb4029 Wrote:  Truth isn't truth. Works for me.

There are many different truths. Alternative truths if you will.

It's either legal or it isn't. Comey of course thinks it's legal... others disagree. A court will decide if it was legal... but Comey would only be in trouble if he admits he thought it was illegal at the time, but did it anyway without any documented reservations

COmey is only complicit if he does the latter. If he sticks to the idea that he believed it was legal, he's off the hook even if it turns out that it was illegally obtained (unless it can be proven that he didn't believe it was legal, which is a huge burden).
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2019 06:47 PM by Hambone10.)
04-12-2019 06:46 PM
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maximus Offline
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Post: #23
Comey claims surveillance is not spying
He had a grab ankles moment

He know he is in some **** for pursuing a bogus report

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04-12-2019 06:53 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
Liberal/Progressive logic:

Comey - surveillance is NOT spying...

Clinton - (A BJ isn't sex) SO I did NOT have sex with that woman...
04-12-2019 07:07 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 06:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The difference between spying and surveillance is the legality of the actions.

Spying is illegal... even against foreign nations. It's not against OUR laws to spy on Russia, but clearly it's against theirs.

All comey is saying is that he believed (or believes) that the court ordered spying was legal... and of course he does... because he wouldn't admit to knowingly being complicit in an illegal action.
The court ordered surveillance was legal... maybe. Taking that data and funneling it to the Clinton campaign would be illegal and spying. That is the difference.

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04-12-2019 07:26 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 12:42 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 12:27 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 11:45 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 10:10 AM)TripleA Wrote:  I don't understand the reaction to the word spying, other than to distract from the actual issue. It's an established fact that the FBI conducted electronic surveillance on the Trump campaign through the FISA warrant (and maybe before, lol). And they sent one or more informants in.

How is that not spying? The issue is whether it was legally justified or not. And no, an issued warrant from a FISA court obtained without being forthcoming about the source of the dossier doesn't count.

They were forthcoming. The source was listed within the footnotes of the request and it’s asinine to believe a judge reviewing the request would not take the time to review the noted sources.

Barr implied there was something more going on; and if that’s the case, then it is owed more than just an off-the-cuff remark.

And more will be given. It is called an investigation and Barr has already started down that path.

As for Comey ... he's corrupt to the core and I wouldn't trust him to be truthful in anything he says. He and Lynch did a total cover up job for Hillary regarding her felonious assault on the nation's Classified Data.

If there has been no investigation, then how irresponsible of the attorney general to offer up the certainty of a crime??

Because the first part of your statement above is not true. The footnote only mentioned the information “may be political in nature”. Nothing was mentioned of who payed for it in the footnote. Nothing was mentioned about the source being a liar or that he had been fired by the FBI or that he hated DJT.
Regardless, I believe when Trump or Barr decide this will be made public we will see the truth. And it won’t be pretty after Mueller found nothing.
04-12-2019 08:31 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 07:26 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 06:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The difference between spying and surveillance is the legality of the actions.

Spying is illegal... even against foreign nations. It's not against OUR laws to spy on Russia, but clearly it's against theirs.

All comey is saying is that he believed (or believes) that the court ordered spying was legal... and of course he does... because he wouldn't admit to knowingly being complicit in an illegal action.
The court ordered surveillance was legal... maybe. Taking that data and funneling it to the Clinton campaign would be illegal and spying. That is the difference.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

It was highly illegal if a very sensitive FISA warrant was obtained by fraud. These warrants aren’t your everyday run of the mill warrants. They are, and should be EXTREMELY hard to obtain against a citizen of the US. Now trying to get one against a member the opposing political party running for president. That should be downright impossible.
04-12-2019 08:40 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
Barr didn't "offer up the certainty of a crime." He said there was spying by the Obama admin on the Trump campaign, and he had concerns that caused him to want to investigate whether there was proper predicate to begin the surveillance.

He specifically said he was not saying there was a crime, only that he was going to look into it to ensure there was proper predicate.
04-12-2019 08:41 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
The target of the FISA was Carter Paige. It was renewed what, 3 times? Someone remind me what Mr Paige was charged with.....
04-12-2019 08:46 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 08:40 PM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 07:26 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 06:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The difference between spying and surveillance is the legality of the actions.
Spying is illegal... even against foreign nations. It's not against OUR laws to spy on Russia, but clearly it's against theirs.
All Comey is saying is that he believed (or believes) that the court ordered spying was legal... and of course he does... because he wouldn't admit to knowingly being complicit in an illegal action.
The court ordered surveillance was legal... maybe. Taking that data and funneling it to the Clinton campaign would be illegal and spying. That is the difference.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
It was highly illegal if a very sensitive FISA warrant was obtained by fraud. These warrants aren’t your everyday run of the mill warrants. They are, and should be EXTREMELY hard to obtain against a citizen of the US. Now trying to get one against a member the opposing political party running for president. That should be downright impossible.

And if what we are being told is correct, then the warrant was improperly obtained. The defenses advanced by democrats such as Adam Schiff are that the dossier was part, but not the primary or even a major part, of the package filed with the FISA court in support of the warrant application; that parts of the dossier, particularly the racier parts, were excluded; and that, of what was included, "most" had been verified.

On those facts, as stated, the warrant application was improper, and the warrant should not have been issued.
04-12-2019 08:48 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
Don’t forget we also had the out of control demasking. We haven’t even got to that yet. Samantha Powers signature was on over one hundred and she was the ambassador to the U.N. An average of one a day nearing the election and she testified under oath to congress some of the signatures were not hers. Barr is going to be a very busy man....
04-12-2019 08:55 PM
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ODU BBALL Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 02:07 PM)swagsurfer11 Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 01:29 PM)cb4029 Wrote:  Truth isn't truth. Works for me.

There are many different truths. Alternative truths if you will.

To both of you.

[Image: truth.jpg]
04-12-2019 09:06 PM
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ODUsmitty Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
I wonder how the asshat's "Ethical Leadership" classes at William and Mary are going?
04-12-2019 09:10 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
The press and liberals need to shut the f&ck up and allow Barr to do his job. So far, he has pretty much nailed it.
04-12-2019 10:15 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 10:15 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The press and liberals need to shut the f&ck up and allow Barr to do his job. So far, he has pretty much nailed it.

Yeah! That’s obstruction of justice!
04-13-2019 12:01 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 09:36 AM)VA49er Wrote:  semantics battle it seems.

It depends on the definition of "is."
04-13-2019 12:03 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 10:10 AM)TripleA Wrote:  I don't understand the reaction to the word spying, other than to distract from the actual issue. It's an established fact that the FBI conducted electronic surveillance on the Trump campaign through the FISA warrant (and maybe before, lol). And they sent one or more informants in.

How is that not spying? The issue is whether it was legally justified or not. And no, an issued warrant from a FISA court obtained without being forthcoming about the source of the dossier doesn't count.

Its a disinformation campaign by the Democrats to distract from their abuse of power and constant lying.
04-13-2019 12:05 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 12:27 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 11:45 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 10:10 AM)TripleA Wrote:  I don't understand the reaction to the word spying, other than to distract from the actual issue. It's an established fact that the FBI conducted electronic surveillance on the Trump campaign through the FISA warrant (and maybe before, lol). And they sent one or more informants in.

How is that not spying? The issue is whether it was legally justified or not. And no, an issued warrant from a FISA court obtained without being forthcoming about the source of the dossier doesn't count.

They were forthcoming. The source was listed within the footnotes of the request and it’s asinine to believe a judge reviewing the request would not take the time to review the noted sources.

Barr implied there was something more going on; and if that’s the case, then it is owed more than just an off-the-cuff remark.

And more will be given. It is called an investigation and Barr has already started down that path.

As for Comey ... he's corrupt to the core and I wouldn't trust him to be truthful in anything he says. He and Lynch did a total cover up job for Hillary regarding her felonious assault on the nation's Classified Data.

And he and Mueller teamed up to do a hit job on Ashcroft several years ago. He has a history.
04-13-2019 12:06 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-12-2019 07:26 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(04-12-2019 06:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The difference between spying and surveillance is the legality of the actions.

Spying is illegal... even against foreign nations. It's not against OUR laws to spy on Russia, but clearly it's against theirs.

All comey is saying is that he believed (or believes) that the court ordered spying was legal... and of course he does... because he wouldn't admit to knowingly being complicit in an illegal action.
The court ordered surveillance was legal... maybe. Taking that data and funneling it to the Clinton campaign would be illegal and spying. That is the difference.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Thats the crux of the issue. The court order made it legal. However---if the court order was obtained by illegal means---the spying was, by definition---illegal. In other words, from a legal standpoint, spying was never supposed to happen in a case where the Justice Department has little to no real evidence because the bar in a FISA court is supposed to be much higher than normal. Hell, not only would the FISA request be rejected had the court known the dossier was completely unverfied, its hard to even understand any basis for the Justice Department to even request a FISA order given the paltry support for the accusations. One is left with the obvious answer---the FISA request was never about the evidence or the threat. It was always about misusing a legal loophole to utilize the vast intelligence apparatus of the United States for the purposes domestic political spying and espionage.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2019 12:41 AM by Attackcoog.)
04-13-2019 12:29 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Comey claims surveillance is not spying
(04-13-2019 12:29 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Thats the crux of the issue. The court order made it legal. However---if the court order was obtained by illegal means---the spying was, by definition---illegal. In other words, from a legal standpoint, spying was never supposed to happen in a case where the Justice Department has little to no real evidence because the bar in a FISA court is supposed to be much higher than normal. Hell, not only would the FISA request be rejected had the court known the dossier was completely unverfied, its hard to even understand any basis for the Justice Department to even request a FISA order given the paltry support for the accusations. One is left with the obvious answer---the FISA request was never about the evidence or the threat. It was always about misusing a legal loophole to utilize the vast intelligence apparatus of the United States for the purposes domestic political spying and espionage.

Technically, the justice department has to present evidence. But that evidence is not subject to cross-examination or rebuttal, because the FISA court is an ex parte proceeding. That is why the burden is so high on the moving party to present nothing but fully vetted and verified evidence. Use of any evidence that was not been verified as uncontrovertibly true would be a violation of not only FISA procedures, but also the ethical duty of the attorneys as officers of the court. And whether that evidence was a major part of the case, or a minor part, or in fact was not relied upon at all in reaching judgement is irrelevant. If it was presented, then it is a violation. It's like being a little bit pregnant. There is no room for no harm, no foul.

I have always thought the FISA procedure was ripe for abuse. I favored including an ad litem to represent the interests of the target (unknown to the target, go course) as one way to limit such abuses by at least providing some kind of challenge to the veracity of evidence introduced. I'm not saying it would have prevented this, but it would have at least given them some pause before acting. By the way, a bill to provide this and other reforms was once introduced by--guess whom--Adam Schiff. I'll bet he would vote against it if it made it to the floor today.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2019 10:57 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-13-2019 08:12 AM
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