David St brought up this topic with just independent schools but why not do it for all FBS schools. Couldn't the more popular bowls that aren't the new years 6 do a playoff format with their bowls? Something that mirrors the main playoff with bowls and maybe 8 teams instead of 4. The bowls would still happen but they could at least mean more than what they are now. They could rotate the bowls out with other bowls to give everyone a fair share of the advertisement pie. Get Fox involved since ESPN has the main one locked down.

Right now there is no path for a G5 team to make the playoffs if UCF couldn't its not happening. This wouldn't be a G5 playoff it would be a playoffs for all the top FBS teams that didn't get into the main one. So a P5/G5 playoffs for everyone after the top 4 spots are taken.

I don't think enough conferences, teams and big bowl games would be interested. You're basically proposing that the other NY6 bowl games and participants become the NIT equivalent.

You would have to schedule the NIT carefully, so you don't take away the opportunity for half of the NY6/NIT field to play in a big-time New Year's bowl game...but, that could run the NIT semifinals on the same day as the CFP semifinals.

You might be able to sell this to the next 8 teams that were left out of the NY6...but you would have to get bowls on board like the Citrus, Outback Gator, Camping World, Holiday, or Alamo.

But, either one of these would make for a pretty sweet NIT:

OPTION A - NY6/NIT (less likely)

ROUND 1, December 14-15, 2018
(8)Texas at (1)Georgia, in Athens, GA
(7)LSU at (2)Ohio St., in Columbus, OH
(6)Florida at (3)Michigan, in Ann Arbor, MI
(5)Washington at (4)UCF, in Orlando, FL

SEMI-FINALS, Saturday, December 29, 2018
PEACH Bowl, in Atlanta, GA
(1)Georgia v. (4)UCF
FIESTA Bowl, in Glendale, AZ
(2)Ohio St. v. (3)Michigan

NY6 CONSOLATION BOWLS
Tuesday, January 1, 2019
ROSE Bowl, in Pasadena, CA
Washington v. Florida
SUGAR Bowl, in New Orleans, LA
Texas v. LSU

NIT CHAMPIONSHIP, Saturday, January 5, 2019
New Orleans, LA (host of the following season's national championship?)
(1)Georgia v. (2)Ohio St.

OPTION B After NY6-NIT (less less likely)

ROUND 1, December 14-15, 2018
(8)Syracuse at (1)Penn St., in State College, PA
(7)Texas A&M at (2)Washington St., in Pullman, WA
(6)Utah at (3)Kentucky, in Lexington, KY
(5)Mississippi St. at (4)West Virginia, in Morgantown, WV

SEMI-FINALS, Friday, December 28, 2018
Camping World Bowl, in Orlando, FL
(1)Penn St. v. (4)West Virginia
Alamo Bowl, in San Antonio, TX
(2)Washington St. v. (3)Kentucky

CONSOLATION BOWLS
December 31, 2018
Holiday Bowl, in San Diego, CA
Utah v. Texas A&M
January 1, 2019
Citrus Bowl, in Orlando, FL
Syracuse v. Mississippi St.

NIT CHAMPIONSHIP, Saturday, January 5, 2019
New Orleans, LA (host of the following season's national championship?)
(1)Penn St. v. (2)Washington St.

(03-27-2019 02:31 PM)YNot Wrote:  I don't think enough conferences, teams and big bowl games would be interested. You're basically proposing that the other NY6 bowl games and participants become the NIT equivalent.

You would have to schedule the NIT carefully, so you don't take away the opportunity for half of the NY6/NIT field to play in a big-time New Year's bowl game...but, that could run the NIT semifinals on the same day as the CFP semifinals.

You might be able to sell this to the next 8 teams that were left out of the NY6...but you would have to get bowls on board like the Citrus, Outback Gator, Camping World, Holiday, or Alamo.

But, either one of these would make for a pretty sweet NIT:

OPTION A - NY6/NIT (less likely)

ROUND 1, December 14-15, 2018
(8)Texas at (1)Georgia, in Athens, GA
(7)LSU at (2)Ohio St., in Columbus, OH
(6)Florida at (3)Michigan, in Ann Arbor, MI
(5)Washington at (4)UCF, in Orlando, FL

SEMI-FINALS, Saturday, December 29, 2018
PEACH Bowl, in Atlanta, GA
(1)Georgia v. (4)UCF
FIESTA Bowl, in Glendale, AZ
(2)Ohio St. v. (3)Michigan

NY6 CONSOLATION BOWLS
Tuesday, January 1, 2019
ROSE Bowl, in Pasadena, CA
Washington v. Florida
SUGAR Bowl, in New Orleans, LA
Texas v. LSU

NIT CHAMPIONSHIP, Saturday, January 5, 2019
New Orleans, LA (host of the following season's national championship?)
(1)Georgia v. (2)Ohio St.

OPTION B After NY6-NIT (less less likely)

ROUND 1, December 14-15, 2018
(8)Syracuse at (1)Penn St., in State College, PA
(7)Texas A&M at (2)Washington St., in Pullman, WA
(6)Utah at (3)Kentucky, in Lexington, KY
(5)Mississippi St. at (4)West Virginia, in Morgantown, WV

SEMI-FINALS, Friday, December 28, 2018
Camping World Bowl, in Orlando, FL
(1)Penn St. v. (4)West Virginia
Alamo Bowl, in San Antonio, TX
(2)Washington St. v. (3)Kentucky

CONSOLATION BOWLS
December 31, 2018
Holiday Bowl, in San Diego, CA
Utah v. Texas A&M
January 1, 2019
Citrus Bowl, in Orlando, FL
Syracuse v. Mississippi St.

NIT CHAMPIONSHIP, Saturday, January 5, 2019
New Orleans, LA (host of the following season's national championship?)
(1)Penn St. v. (2)Washington St.

I don't see anything but upside to this. The bowls still get played but they would mean much more than just a exhibition game after the season. Plus the bowls might make more money for everyone and the promotional aspects of it would be pretty amazing.

Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

(03-27-2019 04:59 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 02:31 PM)YNot Wrote:  I don't think enough conferences, teams and big bowl games would be interested. You're basically proposing that the other NY6 bowl games and participants become the NIT equivalent.

You would have to schedule the NIT carefully, so you don't take away the opportunity for half of the NY6/NIT field to play in a big-time New Year's bowl game...but, that could run the NIT semifinals on the same day as the CFP semifinals.

You might be able to sell this to the next 8 teams that were left out of the NY6...but you would have to get bowls on board like the Citrus, Outback Gator, Camping World, Holiday, or Alamo.

But, either one of these would make for a pretty sweet NIT:

OPTION A - NY6/NIT (less likely)

ROUND 1, December 14-15, 2018
(8)Texas at (1)Georgia, in Athens, GA
(7)LSU at (2)Ohio St., in Columbus, OH
(6)Florida at (3)Michigan, in Ann Arbor, MI
(5)Washington at (4)UCF, in Orlando, FL

SEMI-FINALS, Saturday, December 29, 2018
PEACH Bowl, in Atlanta, GA
(1)Georgia v. (4)UCF
FIESTA Bowl, in Glendale, AZ
(2)Ohio St. v. (3)Michigan

NY6 CONSOLATION BOWLS
Tuesday, January 1, 2019
ROSE Bowl, in Pasadena, CA
Washington v. Florida
SUGAR Bowl, in New Orleans, LA
Texas v. LSU

NIT CHAMPIONSHIP, Saturday, January 5, 2019
New Orleans, LA (host of the following season's national championship?)
(1)Georgia v. (2)Ohio St.

OPTION B After NY6-NIT (less less likely)

ROUND 1, December 14-15, 2018
(8)Syracuse at (1)Penn St., in State College, PA
(7)Texas A&M at (2)Washington St., in Pullman, WA
(6)Utah at (3)Kentucky, in Lexington, KY
(5)Mississippi St. at (4)West Virginia, in Morgantown, WV

SEMI-FINALS, Friday, December 28, 2018
Camping World Bowl, in Orlando, FL
(1)Penn St. v. (4)West Virginia
Alamo Bowl, in San Antonio, TX
(2)Washington St. v. (3)Kentucky

CONSOLATION BOWLS
December 31, 2018
Holiday Bowl, in San Diego, CA
Utah v. Texas A&M
January 1, 2019
Citrus Bowl, in Orlando, FL
Syracuse v. Mississippi St.

NIT CHAMPIONSHIP, Saturday, January 5, 2019
New Orleans, LA (host of the following season's national championship?)
(1)Penn St. v. (2)Washington St.

I don't see anything but upside to this. The bowls still get played but they would mean much more than just a exhibition game after the season. Plus the bowls might make more money for everyone and the promotional aspects of it would be pretty amazing.

You don't see anything but upside. I don't see any upside. I'm not sure who would want to be part of this.

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

(03-27-2019 06:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

This is exactly what I'm not talking about and don't want to happen. This would basically make it the FCS playoffs. What I would like is a FBS NIT of the next top 8 after the top 4 for existing bowls not in the NY6 in a playoff format. So it would be P5 teams and G5 teams playing not FCS with G5.

I'd like to see some of the less attractive bowls go away and the more attractive ones host a double header--schools from 4 different conferences, or a minimum of 3 as long as they didn't meet in the regular season. If the winners of those two games were to play, say 6 days later that could make for a nice week long trip for folks.

(03-27-2019 06:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

WTF???

It would be a hard no from the bowls. The concept of a bowl game is to attract tourists to the region. Fans are not going to travel to multiple bowl games. Especially a series of dead-end bowls. The ones that do travel are going to cut the time they spend in the city so they can possibly go to the next game.

Without the sponsorship, who is going to pay? You could have the games at campuses. That isn't really fair because one school will get $4-5 million, the other would get a nominal fee. Again, for what??

(03-27-2019 10:03 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  It would be a hard no from the bowls. The concept of a bowl game is to attract tourists to the region. Fans are not going to travel to multiple bowl games. Especially a series of dead-end bowls. The ones that do travel are going to cut the time they spend in the city so they can possibly go to the next game.

Without the sponsorship, who is going to pay? You could have the games at campuses. That isn't really fair because one school will get $4-5 million, the other would get a nominal fee. Again, for what??

Sponsorships would be the same for each bowl. This would be the same bowl game as it was before but it would mean more since it would be part of the playoff. Besides maybe moving bowl games around date wise nothing really would change. Might even make bowls more lucrative for everyone.

(03-27-2019 07:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 06:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

This is exactly what I'm not talking about and don't want to happen. This would basically make it the FCS playoffs. What I would like is a FBS NIT of the next top 8 after the top 4 for existing bowls not in the NY6 in a playoff format. So it would be P5 teams and G5 teams playing not FCS with G5.

Then, you did not get what I am getting at. Take my name from your first post because I do not want to be associated with your crap bowl/playoff NIT.

(03-28-2019 12:58 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 07:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 06:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

This is exactly what I'm not talking about and don't want to happen. This would basically make it the FCS playoffs. What I would like is a FBS NIT of the next top 8 after the top 4 for existing bowls not in the NY6 in a playoff format. So it would be P5 teams and G5 teams playing not FCS with G5.

Then, you did not get what I am getting at. Take my name from your first post because I do not want to be associated with your crap bowl/playoff NIT.

Yeah a FCS/G5 playoff is way better than a P5/G5 one.

(03-28-2019 12:58 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 07:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 06:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:06 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Nope. I don't want a consolation. I want either a Group of 5 slot in the national championship playoff or nothing.

A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

This is exactly what I'm not talking about and don't want to happen. This would basically make it the FCS playoffs. What I would like is a FBS NIT of the next top 8 after the top 4 for existing bowls not in the NY6 in a playoff format. So it would be P5 teams and G5 teams playing not FCS with G5.

Then, you did not get what I am getting at. Take my name from your first post because I do not want to be associated with your crap bowl/playoff NIT.

Ironically I think that's how most people feel about your name and this board

Football is a brutal game on the body. And it's also the toughest sport logistically.

Thus, an NIT type series of games just doesn't make sense, IMO.

The single bowl games are fine for all teams not in the playoffs.

(03-28-2019 09:54 AM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-28-2019 12:58 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 07:51 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 06:18 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(03-27-2019 05:16 PM)Curtisc83 Wrote:  A FBS NIT would benefit everyone since P5 and G5 could both be in it. Thus far nothing is exactly what a G5 team gets and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would keep like AAC and MWC + BYU who seemed to get better bowls plus the access slot. If A MAC or SBC gets the access slot? The winners of those 3 conferences get the bowls. 2nd place along with the MAC, SBC and CUSA along with Army with the best Independents could play a G5 champ playoffs using bowls like New Mexico Bowl, Idaho, Sun, Bahamas and some lower level bowls could be used. Army, Utah State, NDSU, South Dakota State, Troy, Georgia Southern, UAB, North Texas, Memphis, Toledo, Eastern Washington, UC-Davis, ETSU, Jacksonville State, NC A&T, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Appalachian State could be the ones.

West region:
Utah State
Eastern Washington
UC-Davis
UNR

Central:
North Dakota State
Montana
South Dakota State
North Texas

Southeast:
Troy
Georgia Southern
UAB
Memphis
Jacksnsoville State

Northeast:
Army
Appalachian State
Buffalo
Cincinnati

Semis
West winner vs central winner
Southeast winner vs northeast winner

Championship:
West/central winner vs Southeast vs northeast winner
North Dakota State vs Cincinnati could be a cool matchup in Dallas might draw eyeballs.

This is exactly what I'm not talking about and don't want to happen. This would basically make it the FCS playoffs. What I would like is a FBS NIT of the next top 8 after the top 4 for existing bowls not in the NY6 in a playoff format. So it would be P5 teams and G5 teams playing not FCS with G5.

Then, you did not get what I am getting at. Take my name from your first post because I do not want to be associated with your crap bowl/playoff NIT.

Yeah a FCS/G5 playoff is way better than a P5/G5 one.

P5 schools will not join this your idea. They will just stay at status quo. AAC, MWC and BYU will want to stay with the P5 with the bowls. The other 3 conferences do not have the strength to get any P5 schools or the other 2 conferences to join them. NDSU played 15 to 16 games a year including the playoffs. It would give those other 3 conferences a shot at winning at a post season championship since they would not get a chance at the National Championship. AAC and MWC have more of a chance to go.

If there are G5 schools who want to participate in a post season tournament, why don't they just leave the FBS and go to the FCS? It seems to me that the overwheming trend among the very schools who have little chance of sniffing the CFP has been to give up the chance at a playoff spot for what they perceive as the better option of a single "meaningless" bowl game at the end of the year.

If P5 schools don't want this, and G5 schools don't want this, and bowls don't want this, who is left to want this?

The bowl games essentially already fulfill this purpose. An expansion of the CFP to 8 or (if they're really ballsy) 16 would only further underscore that.