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(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:22 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:18 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  NC State is mind boggling to me. Basically the same resume as VCU, but VCU is an 8 seed and NC State is not even first 4 out. Seems they were penalized for playing in a conference that required them to play the top three teams in the country 6 times. Argument was that they lost too many pod 1 games, but that's a tough ask when 6 of them are against the top 3. They also were like 23-3 in games that were not against those teams when they weren't missing their best player. St John's, on the other hand did absolutely nothing of note, nor did Washington or ASU. Watched a lot of PAC 12 this year and that conference was not better than CUSA. Its really frustrating how bad they are at picking and seeding this thing.

NC State strength of schedule OOC was the worst in all of D1.

NC State record against the top 5 ACC teams= 0-5 (or whatever it was, point is 0 wins)

NC State record against bottom 5 ACC teams = 5-0 (or whatever it was, point is 0 losses)

Glad that the committee actually used their brains and didn't just blindly follow the NET.

They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

Ignoring the UNC, Duke, UVA, FSU games, went 10-4

Pitt- 2-0 (97)
Wake 1-1 (163)
Notre Dame 1-0 (90)
Louisville -0-1 (17)
Clemson 2-0 (29)
VT 0-1 (11)
Syracuse 1-0 (35)
Bc 2-0 (115)
Miami 1-0 (71)
Georgia Tech -0-1 (109)


They have wins at home to Auburn, Clemson, and Syracuse on their resume (and neutral with Clemson). I think there bad losses were too much to overcome with their lack of good wins.

(03-18-2019 09:39 AM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  The NET system is designed so that mediocre P5s can win 25% of their quad 1 conference games and get in over mid-majors who have difficulty even scheduling said games. It's a sham.

This is obviously false.

Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI
Houston 4/15/5
WOfford-13/19/21
Buffalo 15/22/10
Nevada 23/25/20
Utah State 29/34/28
St. Marys 32/31/35
Furman 41/56/56
Murray State 44/52/37
Belmont 47/54/43


If anything, if I'm P-5 school, I'm screaming that the NET rankings helped mid majors too much (likely based on credit given for net efficiencies). The Net rankings are lower than KenPom rankings almost across the entire board.

(03-18-2019 09:18 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  NC State is mind boggling to me. Basically the same resume as VCU, but VCU is an 8 seed and NC State is not even first 4 out. Seems they were penalized for playing in a conference that required them to play the top three teams in the country 6 times. Argument was that they lost too many pod 1 games, but that's a tough ask when 6 of them are against the top 3. They also were like 23-3 in games that were not against those teams when they weren't missing their best player. St John's, on the other hand did absolutely nothing of note, nor did Washington or ASU. Watched a lot of PAC 12 this year and that conference was not better than CUSA. Its really frustrating how bad they are at picking and seeding this thing.

You’re probably the only person on the east coast who stayed up to watch the Pac 12

(03-18-2019 10:18 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:39 AM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  The NET system is designed so that mediocre P5s can win 25% of their quad 1 conference games and get in over mid-majors who have difficulty even scheduling said games. It's a sham.

This is obviously false.

Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI
Houston 4/15/5
WOfford-13/19/21
Buffalo 15/22/10
Nevada 23/25/20
Utah State 29/34/28
St. Marys 32/31/35
Furman 41/56/56
Murray State 44/52/37
Belmont 47/54/43


If anything, if I'm P-5 school, I'm screaming that the NET rankings helped mid majors too much (likely based on credit given for net efficiencies). The Net rankings are lower than KenPom rankings almost across the entire board.

Out of curiosity, what is our Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI?

(03-18-2019 10:30 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:18 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:39 AM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  The NET system is designed so that mediocre P5s can win 25% of their quad 1 conference games and get in over mid-majors who have difficulty even scheduling said games. It's a sham.

This is obviously false.

Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI
Houston 4/15/5
WOfford-13/19/21
Buffalo 15/22/10
Nevada 23/25/20
Utah State 29/34/28
St. Marys 32/31/35
Furman 41/56/56
Murray State 44/52/37
Belmont 47/54/43


If anything, if I'm P-5 school, I'm screaming that the NET rankings helped mid majors too much (likely based on credit given for net efficiencies). The Net rankings are lower than KenPom rankings almost across the entire board.

Out of curiosity, what is our Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI?

100/112/63

(03-18-2019 09:54 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:22 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:18 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  NC State is mind boggling to me. Basically the same resume as VCU, but VCU is an 8 seed and NC State is not even first 4 out. Seems they were penalized for playing in a conference that required them to play the top three teams in the country 6 times. Argument was that they lost too many pod 1 games, but that's a tough ask when 6 of them are against the top 3. They also were like 23-3 in games that were not against those teams when they weren't missing their best player. St John's, on the other hand did absolutely nothing of note, nor did Washington or ASU. Watched a lot of PAC 12 this year and that conference was not better than CUSA. Its really frustrating how bad they are at picking and seeding this thing.

NC State strength of schedule OOC was the worst in all of D1.

NC State record against the top 5 ACC teams= 0-5 (or whatever it was, point is 0 wins)

NC State record against bottom 5 ACC teams = 5-0 (or whatever it was, point is 0 losses)

Glad that the committee actually used their brains and didn't just blindly follow the NET.

They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

TBH, I really don't feel like going through VCU's and St John's games. Maybe you should and come back and report what you've found. I just laid out all the reasons why NC State was left out - no opinion whether it's the right call or not, but it is something that is good to know that they just don't follow the NET and nothing else. Kind of surprised a mid major fan would be appalled that NC State didn't get rewarded simply for being in the ACC. Also, getting into hypothetical arguments (if X team went to Y conference) isn't something I'm fond of doing.

I am a college basketball fan, and whether it is a mid major that deserved to get in and didn't or a P5 that deserved to get in and didn't it is equally frustrating to me. Suffice to say St John's best wins were Marquette and Villanova when they weren't playing great. St John's also finished 7th in a Big East that wasn't very good this year.

(03-18-2019 10:42 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:54 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:22 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:18 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  NC State is mind boggling to me. Basically the same resume as VCU, but VCU is an 8 seed and NC State is not even first 4 out. Seems they were penalized for playing in a conference that required them to play the top three teams in the country 6 times. Argument was that they lost too many pod 1 games, but that's a tough ask when 6 of them are against the top 3. They also were like 23-3 in games that were not against those teams when they weren't missing their best player. St John's, on the other hand did absolutely nothing of note, nor did Washington or ASU. Watched a lot of PAC 12 this year and that conference was not better than CUSA. Its really frustrating how bad they are at picking and seeding this thing.

NC State strength of schedule OOC was the worst in all of D1.

NC State record against the top 5 ACC teams= 0-5 (or whatever it was, point is 0 wins)

NC State record against bottom 5 ACC teams = 5-0 (or whatever it was, point is 0 losses)

Glad that the committee actually used their brains and didn't just blindly follow the NET.

They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

TBH, I really don't feel like going through VCU's and St John's games. Maybe you should and come back and report what you've found. I just laid out all the reasons why NC State was left out - no opinion whether it's the right call or not, but it is something that is good to know that they just don't follow the NET and nothing else. Kind of surprised a mid major fan would be appalled that NC State didn't get rewarded simply for being in the ACC. Also, getting into hypothetical arguments (if X team went to Y conference) isn't something I'm fond of doing.

I am a college basketball fan, and whether it is a mid major that deserved to get in and didn't or a P5 that deserved to get in and didn't it is equally frustrating to me. Suffice to say St John's best wins were Marquette and Villanova when they weren't playing great. St John's also finished 7th in a Big East that wasn't very good this year.

First, I'm iffy on St. Johns in. But, you hype the ACC (deservingly so), but they were a top heavy conference with great top tier teams, but they didn't have the depth of the conference that the Big East had. The worst team in the Big East was almost a top 100 team in KenPOm (Depaul- 103). Every night in the Big East, you are playing a top 100 team..many are within the 50/60 range. You could make an argument that every team in the league was a borderline tourney team outside of Depaul/Georgetown(who actually had bubble talk before getting shelled by Depaul).

The ACC is great, but you also got to play BC, Wake, Notre Dame, Pitt, and Georgia Tech. The worst BE team was probably better than all 5 of those teams...maybe not ND. The ACC is a great conference. The Big East was not bad at all....its highly competitive. It just didn't have the top end teams this year.

I think Creighton deserved a bid over St. Johns. The Johnnies benefited by preseason rankings and a good start putting them in the top 25.

(03-18-2019 10:51 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:42 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:54 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:22 AM)odu09 Wrote:  NC State strength of schedule OOC was the worst in all of D1.

NC State record against the top 5 ACC teams= 0-5 (or whatever it was, point is 0 wins)

NC State record against bottom 5 ACC teams = 5-0 (or whatever it was, point is 0 losses)

Glad that the committee actually used their brains and didn't just blindly follow the NET.

They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

TBH, I really don't feel like going through VCU's and St John's games. Maybe you should and come back and report what you've found. I just laid out all the reasons why NC State was left out - no opinion whether it's the right call or not, but it is something that is good to know that they just don't follow the NET and nothing else. Kind of surprised a mid major fan would be appalled that NC State didn't get rewarded simply for being in the ACC. Also, getting into hypothetical arguments (if X team went to Y conference) isn't something I'm fond of doing.

I am a college basketball fan, and whether it is a mid major that deserved to get in and didn't or a P5 that deserved to get in and didn't it is equally frustrating to me. Suffice to say St John's best wins were Marquette and Villanova when they weren't playing great. St John's also finished 7th in a Big East that wasn't very good this year.

First, I'm iffy on St. Johns in. But, you hype the ACC (deservingly so), but they were a top heavy conference with great top tier teams, but they didn't have the depth of the conference that the Big East had. The worst team in the Big East was almost a top 100 team in KenPOm (Depaul- 103). Every night in the Big East, you are playing a top 100 team..many are within the 50/60 range. You could make an argument that every team in the league was a borderline tourney team outside of Depaul/Georgetown(who actually had bubble talk before getting shelled by Depaul).

The ACC is great, but you also got to play BC, Wake, Notre Dame, Pitt, and Georgia Tech. The worst BE team was probably better than all 5 of those teams...maybe not ND.

I think Creighton deserved a bid over St. Johns. The Johnnies benefited by preseason rankings and a good start putting them in the top 25.

The mid tier ACC's numbers are affected by how good the top is. There are at least 5 teams in the ACC that would win the Big East, maybe 6 depending on how good you think Syracuse is, and a 7th team, Louisville, would be at least top 3 in the Big East this year. When you consider how many elite teams were in the ACC it makes it really hard for the teams that are just pretty good to do anything that would impress via numbers.

NC State, as I mentioned, played 6 games against the top 3 teams in the nation. They lost all of them, as you would expect them to. Replace UVA, Duke, UNC with Villanova, Marquette, and Georgetown for 6 games, and I am pretty confident that they build a resume that gets them in the tournament.

(03-18-2019 10:58 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:51 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:42 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:54 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

TBH, I really don't feel like going through VCU's and St John's games. Maybe you should and come back and report what you've found. I just laid out all the reasons why NC State was left out - no opinion whether it's the right call or not, but it is something that is good to know that they just don't follow the NET and nothing else. Kind of surprised a mid major fan would be appalled that NC State didn't get rewarded simply for being in the ACC. Also, getting into hypothetical arguments (if X team went to Y conference) isn't something I'm fond of doing.

I am a college basketball fan, and whether it is a mid major that deserved to get in and didn't or a P5 that deserved to get in and didn't it is equally frustrating to me. Suffice to say St John's best wins were Marquette and Villanova when they weren't playing great. St John's also finished 7th in a Big East that wasn't very good this year.

First, I'm iffy on St. Johns in. But, you hype the ACC (deservingly so), but they were a top heavy conference with great top tier teams, but they didn't have the depth of the conference that the Big East had. The worst team in the Big East was almost a top 100 team in KenPOm (Depaul- 103). Every night in the Big East, you are playing a top 100 team..many are within the 50/60 range. You could make an argument that every team in the league was a borderline tourney team outside of Depaul/Georgetown(who actually had bubble talk before getting shelled by Depaul).

The ACC is great, but you also got to play BC, Wake, Notre Dame, Pitt, and Georgia Tech. The worst BE team was probably better than all 5 of those teams...maybe not ND.

I think Creighton deserved a bid over St. Johns. The Johnnies benefited by preseason rankings and a good start putting them in the top 25.

The mid tier ACC's numbers are affected by how good the top is. There are at least 5 teams in the ACC that would win the Big East, maybe 6 depending on how good you think Syracuse is, and a 7th team, Louisville, would be at least top 3 in the Big East this year. When you consider how many elite teams were in the ACC it makes it really hard for the teams that are just pretty good to do anything that would impress via numbers.

NC State, as I mentioned, played 6 games against the top 3 teams in the nation. They lost all of them, as you would expect them to. Replace UVA, Duke, UNC with Villanova, Marquette, and Georgetown for 6 games, and I am pretty confident that they build a resume that gets them in the tournament.

6 teams? Thats looney bin material. There are certainly 3 (UNC, Duke, UVA)...possibly VT. I would take Nova/Marquette all day over FSU. Which Nova did win the neutral court matchup earlier in the year.

The mid tier ACC schools benefit from the top as it boosts their rankings. NC State would lose to Nova and Marquette.

The top 3 teams in the ACC are all top 5 teams. VT and FSU are solid top 20 teams. (maybe top 25). The others in the conference aren't nearly as good.

I have no idea how you were impressed with NC State. I watched a few, but after the Clemson ACC tourney game, I thought neither of those teams were good enough to get in.

(03-18-2019 10:33 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:30 AM)Chillie Willie Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:18 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:39 AM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  The NET system is designed so that mediocre P5s can win 25% of their quad 1 conference games and get in over mid-majors who have difficulty even scheduling said games. It's a sham.

This is obviously false.

Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI
Houston 4/15/5
WOfford-13/19/21
Buffalo 15/22/10
Nevada 23/25/20
Utah State 29/34/28
St. Marys 32/31/35
Furman 41/56/56
Murray State 44/52/37
Belmont 47/54/43


If anything, if I'm P-5 school, I'm screaming that the NET rankings helped mid majors too much (likely based on credit given for net efficiencies). The Net rankings are lower than KenPom rankings almost across the entire board.

Out of curiosity, what is our Net Rankings/KenPom/RPI?

100/112/63

RPI is the one that doesn't factor in margin of victory. That is the difference. I wonder if there is another school in basketball with this large of a discrepancy.

(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

All that's true (except FSU as a top 6 team in country, I mean, come on now), but at some point, they need a win in one of those games. Then you could point to that and talk about their potential. But when they lose all those games, I have no sympathy. ACC teams do not and should not get points for quality losses.

The committee came right out and said that--NC State had a lot of chances to get a win that would open eyes and allow the committee to project something, but they never did it.

I understand you're arguing NC State vs. VCU and St. John's here, but as a mid-major why would we EVER want to say an ACC team that didn't beat 1 good team in their conference should get the benefit of the doubt? If ODU hadn't dropped those last 2 games and lost in CUSA finals and the committee had us in First Four Out and NC State in, I would throw a fit.

(03-18-2019 10:21 AM)Justanodufan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:18 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  NC State is mind boggling to me. Basically the same resume as VCU, but VCU is an 8 seed and NC State is not even first 4 out. Seems they were penalized for playing in a conference that required them to play the top three teams in the country 6 times. Argument was that they lost too many pod 1 games, but that's a tough ask when 6 of them are against the top 3. They also were like 23-3 in games that were not against those teams when they weren't missing their best player. St John's, on the other hand did absolutely nothing of note, nor did Washington or ASU. Watched a lot of PAC 12 this year and that conference was not better than CUSA. Its really frustrating how bad they are at picking and seeding this thing.

You’re probably the only person on the east coast who stayed up to watch the Pac 12

Ha probably. I am a night owl and PAC 12 basketball is good TV to go to sleep to.

(03-18-2019 11:11 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:58 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:51 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 10:42 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:54 AM)odu09 Wrote:  TBH, I really don't feel like going through VCU's and St John's games. Maybe you should and come back and report what you've found. I just laid out all the reasons why NC State was left out - no opinion whether it's the right call or not, but it is something that is good to know that they just don't follow the NET and nothing else. Kind of surprised a mid major fan would be appalled that NC State didn't get rewarded simply for being in the ACC. Also, getting into hypothetical arguments (if X team went to Y conference) isn't something I'm fond of doing.

I am a college basketball fan, and whether it is a mid major that deserved to get in and didn't or a P5 that deserved to get in and didn't it is equally frustrating to me. Suffice to say St John's best wins were Marquette and Villanova when they weren't playing great. St John's also finished 7th in a Big East that wasn't very good this year.

First, I'm iffy on St. Johns in. But, you hype the ACC (deservingly so), but they were a top heavy conference with great top tier teams, but they didn't have the depth of the conference that the Big East had. The worst team in the Big East was almost a top 100 team in KenPOm (Depaul- 103). Every night in the Big East, you are playing a top 100 team..many are within the 50/60 range. You could make an argument that every team in the league was a borderline tourney team outside of Depaul/Georgetown(who actually had bubble talk before getting shelled by Depaul).

The ACC is great, but you also got to play BC, Wake, Notre Dame, Pitt, and Georgia Tech. The worst BE team was probably better than all 5 of those teams...maybe not ND.

I think Creighton deserved a bid over St. Johns. The Johnnies benefited by preseason rankings and a good start putting them in the top 25.

The mid tier ACC's numbers are affected by how good the top is. There are at least 5 teams in the ACC that would win the Big East, maybe 6 depending on how good you think Syracuse is, and a 7th team, Louisville, would be at least top 3 in the Big East this year. When you consider how many elite teams were in the ACC it makes it really hard for the teams that are just pretty good to do anything that would impress via numbers.

NC State, as I mentioned, played 6 games against the top 3 teams in the nation. They lost all of them, as you would expect them to. Replace UVA, Duke, UNC with Villanova, Marquette, and Georgetown for 6 games, and I am pretty confident that they build a resume that gets them in the tournament.

6 teams? Thats looney bin material. There are certainly 3 (UNC, Duke, UVA)...possibly VT. I would take Nova/Marquette all day over FSU. Which Nova did win the neutral court matchup earlier in the year.

The mid tier ACC schools benefit from the top as it boosts their rankings. NC State would lose to Nova and Marquette.

The top 3 teams in the ACC are all top 5 teams. VT and FSU are solid top 20 teams. (maybe top 25). The others in the conference aren't nearly as good.

I have no idea how you were impressed with NC State. I watched a few, but after the Clemson ACC tourney game, I thought neither of those teams were good enough to get in.

I mean, I am not the only one who thinks that... FSU is higher in the polls and seeded higher than both of those teams.

(03-18-2019 12:03 PM)djnva Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 09:38 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  They also played all the good teams that weren't the three best teams in the nation on the road, and a handful of those losses were without their best player. Also, The top 4 teams in the ACC probably would have won any other conference in the country. Also, what the hell did St John's do? What did VCU even do that NC State didn't do? Do you think St John's would have racked up wins against the ACC top5? Let's be real for a minute, Duke, UVA, UNC, and FSU are probably 4 of the 5 or 6 best teams in the county.

All that's true (except FSU as a top 6 team in country, I mean, come on now), but at some point, they need a win in one of those games. Then you could point to that and talk about their potential. But when they lose all those games, I have no sympathy. ACC teams do not and should not get points for quality losses.

The committee came right out and said that--NC State had a lot of chances to get a win that would open eyes and allow the committee to project something, but they never did it.

I understand you're arguing NC State vs. VCU and St. John's here, but as a mid-major why would we EVER want to say an ACC team that didn't beat 1 good team in their conference should get the benefit of the doubt? If ODU hadn't dropped those last 2 games and lost in CUSA finals and the committee had us in First Four Out and NC State in, I would throw a fit.

The committee also said they gave St John's consideration for injuries, they obviously gave Duke consideration for injuries, they did not give NC State consideration for their injury.

FSU is ranked #10. There are certainly 3 teams ahead of them that you could make an argument are not better than them. They have also won 17 of their last 19 games.