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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
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Seahawk2010 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 07:58 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  Lots of sadness over at our Board. Would have been a really fun journey next year. I have lots of respect for you guys and your program. But, to put things in perspective, you guys have won 6 CAA Championships, ODU has won 8. When I was a student, we were a total doormat. So bad that it looked like it would last forever. Between 1987 and 2003 the Tribe won 2 total CAA tourney games(that includes play in rounds). Tony built the program into a consistent, year in year out competitive CAA team. It took time, the first few years were very lean. The leap we took from consistent play in round loser to finalist(3 wins including beating top seeded VCU) in 2008 was amazing. It continued in 2010, but ODU was in the way in the finals. Then, in the last 6 years the Tribe lost in 2014 and 2015 in the finals with Marcus Thornton leading the team. It was a near miss, probably one FT miss with the lead and a minute to go. Not really any different than last season's Northeastern loss in the finals to Charleston except that they had a 2015 title(sigh). Even in 2017, the Tribe beat your eventual champions in the regular season(as your first loss) and was very competitive against you guys in the semis. Your 2017 was likely still the best CAA team of the last 5+ years. So, the Tribe was never the best team in any one year, but was among the best every year. I just think a 2020 or bust opportunity was the better call, if this was going to occur at all. If any of our top players leave due to this decision, then it absolutely was the wrong one(short-term). And 2020 is a favorable tourney venue for the Tribe, much more so than Charleston was. I expect Coach Shaver will get hired quickly and will be successful. Today, I am sad, shocked, and struggling to see what hire will work better with the core we had coming back including our entire starting 5 plus LJ Owens, Cameron Brown and Andy Van Vliet(a 7 foot transfer from Wisconsin). Coach Shaver represented all things W&M very well and with class. BTW, 5 schools have no CAA title since Coach Shaver arrived(Towson, Drexel, Hofstra, Elon). JMU has one(but has been really, really bad for the rest of the time). Delaware also has one(but has been terrible nearly every other year as well). So, ultimate success has eluded a lot of programs. Maybe it is as simple as we could not deal with losing to Delaware again. I don't think anything the Tribe could have done would have led to beating the Huskies this year.

Good lord, please you paragraphs. You are a Bill & Mary fan, you should know better.
03-13-2019 09:26 PM
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Gary Miller Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
I feel like I just read Tony Shaver’s obituary
03-13-2019 10:09 PM
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Proff Offline
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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Not sure what the thought process in Williamsburg is/was, but I think they have sent a very good coach packing. For their sake and the sake of the CAA, I hope they are making a good choice. But I doubt it.

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03-13-2019 10:46 PM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Shavers' agent is reporting a $1.7 million dollar buyout! Four years left on his contract which means he was making $425,000 year guaranteed. Tell me again how William and Mary is underfunded? First, they are paying Shaver more than we are and second, they are buying him out at $1.7 million?

If he had 4 years left, it was likely on a 5 or 6 year contract. Sounds like he was resigned just before the new AD came on board. That's a huge buyout for a CAA school. Something big is happening in Williamsburg.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019 02:49 AM by 82hawk.)
03-14-2019 02:31 AM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 02:31 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Shavers' agent is reporting a $1.7 million dollar buyout! Four years left on his contract which means he was making $425,000 year guaranteed. Tell me again how William and Mary is underfunded? First, they are paying Shaver more than we are and second, they are buying him out at $1.7 million?

If he had 4 years left, it was likely on a 5 or 6 year contract. Sounds like he was resigned just before the new AD came on board. That's a huge buyout for a CAA school. Something big is happening in Williamsburg.

LOL. I love how you're the only one, and one of FEW (out of many WM fans) who are spinning this as a positive for WM.

There's a much higher percentage chance they're really messing this up.
03-14-2019 07:32 AM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Well, now is as good a time as any to debate who the next coach at WM will be.

If they don't land a massively good hire here there's gonna be trouble in the 'Burg.

Looking at the numbers 82hawk posted... in order for "something big is happening..." to work out, they need a Rick Pitino level splash.
03-14-2019 07:36 AM
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Gary Miller Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 07:36 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  Well, now is as good a time as any to debate who the next coach at WM will be.

If they don't land a massively good hire here there's gonna be trouble in the 'Burg.

Looking at the numbers 82hawk posted... in order for "something big is happening..." to work out, they need a Rick Pitino level splash.

Nathan Davis (Bucknell HC) would be a great fit. He has the perfect coaching background to succeed at a school like W&M. John Thompson III is the "big" name that is being floated around, but I think that is unlikely. Jamion Christian (Siena HC) would be my third name to throw in the hat, he's a former Shaver assistant that has had a lot of success on the low major level.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019 08:10 AM by Gary Miller.)
03-14-2019 08:09 AM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 08:09 AM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(03-14-2019 07:36 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  Well, now is as good a time as any to debate who the next coach at WM will be.

If they don't land a massively good hire here there's gonna be trouble in the 'Burg.

Looking at the numbers 82hawk posted... in order for "something big is happening..." to work out, they need a Rick Pitino level splash.

Nathan Davis (Bucknell HC) would be a great fit. He has the perfect coaching background to succeed at a school like W&M. John Thompson III is the "big" name that is being floated around, but I think that is unlikely. Jamion Christian (Siena HC) would be my third name to throw in the hat, he's a former Shaver assistant that has had a lot of success on the low major level.

All of those would be good hires. I don't think hiring ANY of them would justify firing Shaver though, and paying him 1.7 million NOT to coach either.

Just wild. What a situation. WM board is littered with folks speculating on their current players too. Reported that vultures are already circling on Pierce (Northwestern coaches "followed" him and he "followed" back -- I assume that's a twitter reference). There's obvious concern they'll lose Knight.

This is important to us, as WM is a strong "southern" member, but more so in the middle geographically. Regardless, we should be hoping this turns out better for them then some of our coaching changes in the past. A weaker WM only hurts the CAA worse than it's current state.
03-14-2019 08:17 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 02:31 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Shavers' agent is reporting a $1.7 million dollar buyout! Four years left on his contract which means he was making $425,000 year guaranteed. Tell me again how William and Mary is underfunded?

$425K per season is not a lot for a guy who has been there 16 years. His contract has gone up over time, so imagine what he was getting paid his first few years?

I did find an article that said in 2009 he'd gotten a $55,000 pay raise to get up to $200,000 per season. Pathetic.
03-14-2019 08:45 AM
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Gary Miller Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 08:17 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-14-2019 08:09 AM)Gary Miller Wrote:  
(03-14-2019 07:36 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  Well, now is as good a time as any to debate who the next coach at WM will be.

If they don't land a massively good hire here there's gonna be trouble in the 'Burg.

Looking at the numbers 82hawk posted... in order for "something big is happening..." to work out, they need a Rick Pitino level splash.

Nathan Davis (Bucknell HC) would be a great fit. He has the perfect coaching background to succeed at a school like W&M. John Thompson III is the "big" name that is being floated around, but I think that is unlikely. Jamion Christian (Siena HC) would be my third name to throw in the hat, he's a former Shaver assistant that has had a lot of success on the low major level.

All of those would be good hires. I don't think hiring ANY of them would justify firing Shaver though, and paying him 1.7 million NOT to coach either.

Just wild. What a situation. WM board is littered with folks speculating on their current players too. Reported that vultures are already circling on Pierce (Northwestern coaches "followed" him and he "followed" back -- I assume that's a twitter reference). There's obvious concern they'll lose Knight.

This is important to us, as WM is a strong "southern" member, but more so in the middle geographically. Regardless, we should be hoping this turns out better for them then some of our coaching changes in the past. A weaker WM only hurts the CAA worse than it's current state.

While I understand your "W&M is important to us" take, its hard to root for the success of a school that pulls a stunt like this. While I hope they hire a decent coach, it would serve the administration right losing guys like Knight and Pierce. At this point I would hate to see a guy win with Shaver's recruits.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019 08:58 AM by Gary Miller.)
03-14-2019 08:52 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
If they wanted to let go of Shaver, it should have been delayed at the minimum. Paying someone $1.7M NOT to coach is by far the biggest financial commitment the school will have made to basketball in a very long time.

82 keeps talking about Shaver's failure to make the NCAA Tournament. The only reason W&M was ever even in a discussion to make the NCAA Tournament was because of Shaver. Now they're likely going to hire an outsider who has no idea how difficult it is to win there.

Good luck making a splashy hire: Who is going to pay the new coach substantially more than Shaver made AND pay the $1.7M buyout? It makes zero sense. Yes, the school itself has money from a sizable endowment. But why couldn't they have just spent that kind of money in the past to help the basketball program over the last 2 decades?

Shaver made this program competitive with very little funds. Imagine what he could have done with that $1.7M. He was the Mark Scalf of basketball coaches.

This post on the Tribe board sums it up nicely:

(03-14-2019 08:28 AM)wmmii Wrote:  So Huge can find 1.7M to buyout Shaver but could not find enough funds to pay for the team to attend summer school for each semester? Shaver and his staff worked with a shoestring budget and we now will magically find $1,700,000 to fund his buyout. Hope the Tribe Club makes sure no private funds are used to fund this as i know my contributions were never intended for this purpose.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019 09:36 AM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-14-2019 09:34 AM
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dan10 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
To pay that much at our level to fire/buyout a coach is impressive. To me that screams they wanted to move on and really thought he would win next year, and then they would never be able to sell the move to the fans and donors. So they had to make the move now to avoid that from happening, hoping to still achieve the same thing with a different coach/direction. That is the best I can make out on this ordeal.

I know our fans were discussing this last night and a valid question was asked: How long is too long for a coach who had not won? I am well aware their situation is very different than any other team in our conference and for the most part, the country. Shaver had been at W&M 1 year longer than Bruiser was at Drexel, with the same results of a few NIT appearances and 0 NCAA appearances. I really did not know how to answer that "how long is too long before you HAVE to make a move regardless how good or nice the coach is".

I do think this has to do with their AD's vision and wanting her own coach, but objectively it is hard to be at a program as long as he was without winning and still keep a job. Yes their academic requirements is normally a game changer, but she obviously values winning more and getting off that dreadful NCAA-less list. Bruiser was our most successful coach as well and we had to move on. Again, totally different circumstances and directions at the time, but some validity. Does not make the pill any easier to swallow
03-14-2019 11:41 AM
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Post: #53
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 11:41 AM)dan10 Wrote:  To pay that much at our level to fire/buyout a coach is impressive. To me that screams they wanted to move on and really thought he would win next year, and then they would never be able to sell the move to the fans and donors. So they had to make the move now to avoid that from happening, hoping to still achieve the same thing with a different coach/direction. That is the best I can make out on this ordeal.

I know our fans were discussing this last night and a valid question was asked: How long is too long for a coach who had not won? I am well aware their situation is very different than any other team in our conference and for the most part, the country. Shaver had been at W&M 1 year longer than Bruiser was at Drexel, with the same results of a few NIT appearances and 0 NCAA appearances. I really did not know how to answer that "how long is too long before you HAVE to make a move regardless how good or nice the coach is".

I do think this has to do with their AD's vision and wanting her own coach, but objectively it is hard to be at a program as long as he was without winning and still keep a job. Yes their academic requirements is normally a game changer, but she obviously values winning more and getting off that dreadful NCAA-less list. Bruiser was our most successful coach as well and we had to move on. Again, totally different circumstances and directions at the time, but some validity. Does not make the pill any easier to swallow

Exactly. I agree. Which as Seahawk fans... we remember how this turned out when Brownell was shown the door for not winning in the NCAAT and a new AD wanting his stamp on the program... and he definitely made it.

I mean... just look at all the blow back right now. If she let him stay next year for what was to be his most stacked and ready opportunity to ring that bell for the school -- she would be toast to try it then. He would've cemented his place in the job for as long as he wanted it. In order to broker her power and get her guy, she HAD to do this now and hope the chips all still play. Risky risky.
03-14-2019 12:18 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 11:41 AM)dan10 Wrote:  Yes their academic requirements is normally a game changer, but she obviously values winning more and getting off that dreadful NCAA-less list.

Then this was not the way to do it. The way to do it was devote more resources towards the basketball program. Not remove the guy that made an NCAA Tournament appearance even seem possible.

The next HC is going to struggle to get to .500, regardless of how high-profile the replacement is. Book it.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019 01:52 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-14-2019 01:52 PM
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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 01:52 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(03-14-2019 11:41 AM)dan10 Wrote:  Yes their academic requirements is normally a game changer, but she obviously values winning more and getting off that dreadful NCAA-less list.

Then this was not the way to do it. The way to do it was devote more resources towards the basketball program. Not remove the guy that made an NCAA Tournament appearance even seem possible.

The next HC is going to struggle to get to .500, regardless of how high-profile the replacement is. Book it.

The best part is the firing of Shaver didn’t happen in a vacuum. There’s a line of successful coaches at WM whom she showed the door to. Specifically take a look at their former women’s tennis coach, from 2013-2018. Take a look at his success record at WM. She is systematically removing successful coaches. Makes zero sense.


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03-14-2019 02:51 PM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 08:45 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(03-14-2019 02:31 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Shavers' agent is reporting a $1.7 million dollar buyout! Four years left on his contract which means he was making $425,000 year guaranteed. Tell me again how William and Mary is underfunded?

$425K per season is not a lot for a guy who has been there 16 years. His contract has gone up over time, so imagine what he was getting paid his first few years?

I did find an article that said in 2009 he'd gotten a $55,000 pay raise to get up to $200,000 per season. Pathetic.

Ummm. 1.7 million buyout? We'd never do that. The money is coming from somewhere.
03-14-2019 04:42 PM
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RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 09:34 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  If they wanted to let go of Shaver, it should have been delayed at the minimum. Paying someone $1.7M NOT to coach is by far the biggest financial commitment the school will have made to basketball in a very long time.

82 keeps talking about Shaver's failure to make the NCAA Tournament. The only reason W&M was ever even in a discussion to make the NCAA Tournament was because of Shaver. Now they're likely going to hire an outsider who has no idea how difficult it is to win there.

Good luck making a splashy hire: Who is going to pay the new coach substantially more than Shaver made AND pay the $1.7M buyout? It makes zero sense. Yes, the school itself has money from a sizable endowment. But why couldn't they have just spent that kind of money in the past to help the basketball program over the last 2 decades?

Shaver made this program competitive with very little funds. Imagine what he could have done with that $1.7M. He was the Mark Scalf of basketball coaches.

This post on the Tribe board sums it up nicely:

(03-14-2019 08:28 AM)wmmii Wrote:  So Huge can find 1.7M to buyout Shaver but could not find enough funds to pay for the team to attend summer school for each semester? Shaver and his staff worked with a shoestring budget and we now will magically find $1,700,000 to fund his buyout. Hope the Tribe Club makes sure no private funds are used to fund this as i know my contributions were never intended for this purpose.

I'm not talking about anything, i'm quoting their AD. Take a minute and read the W&M threads from when she was hired. Then, take a minute and look at HER statement as to why it was time to move on. SHE specifically mentioned the lack of an NCAA tournament spot...ever.

Furthermore, I stated I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. I can see both sides of the argument. But, the kicker for it all is that the AD cannot and did not make this decision, the school President did. Their "trustees" did. The AD may have a vision and may have recommended this happen, but this diid not happen without the full support of the administration.
03-14-2019 04:49 PM
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Proff Offline
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Post: #58
Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
82 mentioned that the $1.7 million payout would come from somewhere. There's money somewhere at bill and the virgin. They are the second oldest college in the country (behind harvard). Founded in the 1690s, there has to be a lot of old money around.

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03-14-2019 05:15 PM
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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-14-2019 05:15 PM)Proff Wrote:  82 mentioned that the $1.7 million payout would come from somewhere. There's money somewhere at bill and the virgin. They are the second oldest college in the country (behind harvard). Founded in the 1690s, there has to be a lot of old money around.

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There’s a ton of money around as they have an incredible law program, and like you said... a lot of old money. The WM boards have been talking a little about it. They allude on occasion to a massive endowment but all that money also frustrates them as they feel (and rightfully so) that their athletic programs should be better funded. We’re no stranger to the woes of funding and we don’t even come close to the donor pockets they have.


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03-14-2019 05:37 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Bingo. How could they find this money to fire him, but never give him
adequate money to run the program? Makes no sense.
03-14-2019 07:12 PM
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