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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Imagine if we'd have fired Mark Scalf in 2002 because the team hadn't gotten to a Regional yet after his first 12 seasons?

That's the most apt comparison I can think of.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019 05:32 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-13-2019 05:29 PM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 05:16 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 04:58 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 04:19 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 03:58 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 03:56 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t NU always had a somewhat decent hockey program? I’m thinking the two are apples to oranges.

For what it’s worth, I went ahead and wished WM well. I think it does them good to know that other CAA fans had a lot of respect for Shaver and wish the best for WM. They’re a good school and have been a valuable member of this conference. Their fans deserve better. Way better.


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And unlike W&M basketball, Northeastern actually invests real resources into its hockey program. W&M doesn't do the same for basketball.

If that changes going forward, than sure, we can say this move makes sense. But if it remains status quo and they hope for better results, it'll be a Brownell to Benny Moss situation all over again.

UNCW did have one good season under Moss with Brownell’s players. If WM is lucky enough to retain all their players (especially Knight and Audige) and recruits coming next year than on paper they should compete for a championship. Which further makes the firing oddly timed. Numerous Tribe fans on their board are stating its due to a desire for their AD to put her name on the map. Which kinda makes sense, with some big IFs.

1. IF all returning players return.
2. IF all recruits stick around for a different coach (less likely than #1).
3. IF they can win it all in the next 1-2 years.

If all that happens she’ll be known as an AD who brought in her “guy” to win it all at WM and get them to the dance for the first time in school history. Having that on her resume would surely boost her national profile.


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"This damned AD got us to our first ever NCAA basketball tournment just so she could leave...DAMN HER(shaking fist)!!

I see your point there.

Scenario: What if he/she (why not it’s 2019) wins with Shaver’s guys in year one, she gets a P5 AD gig a couple years after that and in the seasons to follow the NCAAT year the team craps the bed (not dissimilar too much from our Moss years). Was it worth it?

Obviously part of the answer to that would lie in how successful the tournament appearance was as well.

But, in your opinion... would it be worth it?


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Have our NCAA appearances been worth the crap years? I think if you asked any UNCW fan, the answer would be a resounding yes.
03-13-2019 05:57 PM
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Seahawk2010 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Gotta wait and see who they hire before completely sounding off and saying this was a huge mistake. What if the new coach takes them to an NCAA appearance in the next few years? Status quo at W&M has been a top 5 finish in the CAA and winning records, but never winning the CAA championship game and going dancing in the Tony Shaver era.

At the same time this could be a complete disaster for them.
03-13-2019 06:11 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Post: #24
Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 05:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 05:16 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 04:58 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 04:19 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 03:58 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  And unlike W&M basketball, Northeastern actually invests real resources into its hockey program. W&M doesn't do the same for basketball.

If that changes going forward, than sure, we can say this move makes sense. But if it remains status quo and they hope for better results, it'll be a Brownell to Benny Moss situation all over again.

UNCW did have one good season under Moss with Brownell’s players. If WM is lucky enough to retain all their players (especially Knight and Audige) and recruits coming next year than on paper they should compete for a championship. Which further makes the firing oddly timed. Numerous Tribe fans on their board are stating its due to a desire for their AD to put her name on the map. Which kinda makes sense, with some big IFs.

1. IF all returning players return.
2. IF all recruits stick around for a different coach (less likely than #1).
3. IF they can win it all in the next 1-2 years.

If all that happens she’ll be known as an AD who brought in her “guy” to win it all at WM and get them to the dance for the first time in school history. Having that on her resume would surely boost her national profile.


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"This damned AD got us to our first ever NCAA basketball tournment just so she could leave...DAMN HER(shaking fist)!!

I see your point there.

Scenario: What if he/she (why not it’s 2019) wins with Shaver’s guys in year one, she gets a P5 AD gig a couple years after that and in the seasons to follow the NCAAT year the team craps the bed (not dissimilar too much from our Moss years). Was it worth it?

Obviously part of the answer to that would lie in how successful the tournament appearance was as well.

But, in your opinion... would it be worth it?


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Have our NCAA appearances been worth the crap years? I think if you asked any UNCW fan, the answer would be a resounding yes.


Yeah. I just think it’s too risky of a move going into a season next year where they were going to be so stacked. It’s a oddly timed risk considering he could’ve potentially accomplished it next year but now they may lose some of those pieces. Just oddly timed, regardless of whether or not it plays out for them.


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03-13-2019 06:15 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 05:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Have our NCAA appearances been worth the crap years? I think if you asked any UNCW fan, the answer would be a resounding yes.

You don't get to 6 NCAA Tournaments without committing substantial resources to the program. We're the type of program that ought to have success almost regardless of who the HC is.

W&M is not in that company. Their basketball budget is about 30 % less than ours, and they're a football school. Plus the aforementioned academic standards.

I'm not sure what Shaver's salary looked like but my guess is it wasn't much bigger than C.B.'s.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019 06:25 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-13-2019 06:19 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
And in a 2018 poll by the coaches, W&M ranked the 9th job out of 10 in the CAA:


https://watchstadium.com/news/caa-basket...1-22-2018/

[Image: Conference-Chain-CAA-1.jpg.webp]


Where they win: “They have a niche in recruiting because they go after academic kids. They can sell academics.” – CAA assistant coach

The knock: “While the academics are a blessing, they can also be a curse. They can’t get a large segment of players into school.” – CAA head coach
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019 06:27 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-13-2019 06:26 PM
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zablenoise Online
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Post: #27
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 03:47 PM)SomebodyToLove Wrote:  Is there ever good timing for this kind of move?

At NU, we let go our men's hockey coach in 2011 and lost two big recruits in the process (and by big, I mean BIG like one would've been the best player we've ever had by far - Johnny Gaudreau). Anyway, at the time fans were pretty mad. Our coach had turned around our program and it seemed better than ever before. Well our new coach we brought in has turned us into the best our program has ever been. We suffered for two seasons while we coped with the loss of players but we are higher now than ever before.

Now I'm not saying that this is the right move, and their future depends a lot on who they bring in. I just want to make the point that it's almost never the right time to fire someone in these types of situations. (I also want to wish W&M fans well and praise Shaver but I'll let things cool down on their board first)
Thanks for this perspective. Let's hope this decision goes as well for W&M.

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03-13-2019 07:01 PM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 05:01 PM)solohawks Wrote:  An AD comes in a runs off a successful coach...stop me if.youve heard this before

I really like Shaver and have been pleased with his leadership at W&M. Class guy with class players, fun to watch, never any problems. Fan base overall content.

New AD sees a coach who has been there 16 years, has an overall losing record and a program that hasn't been able to get in the tourney.

I think it's the difference on how people define success.
03-13-2019 07:04 PM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
UNCW has always been underfunded. Did that make everyone here satisified with mediocrity? Right now they are one of 4 schools in the entire NCAA who have never played an NCAA tournament game. The AD did not make this move without the blesssing of the school President.

Seem to me like a very risky move since it entirely rests on making the NCAA tournament next year. Make it, and everyone forgets about Tony Shaver. Don't make it, and everyone will say that firing Shaver cost them a trip to the NCAA tournament everyone assumed would happen. But, just like McGrath, the new coach will have four years to get there. If that isn't the standard, what was the point? The bar will be set REALLY high for the next coach.

Not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, I could go either way. But, sixteen years and never making the NCAA tournament sure seems like a change wouldn't hurt.
03-13-2019 07:05 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 07:05 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, I could go either way. But, sixteen years and never making the NCAA tournament sure seems like a change wouldn't hurt.

I could easily see it going badly. NIT bids and hope of an eventual NCAA Tournament appearance are much better than what could easily happen when you consider how tough a job W&M is.

It's a high risk decision with minimal upside. The NCAA Tournament was going to happen eventually for Shaver. It was a simple matter of them being "due", and having consistently been near the top of the conference.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019 07:21 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-13-2019 07:21 PM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 07:21 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 07:05 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, I could go either way. But, sixteen years and never making the NCAA tournament sure seems like a change wouldn't hurt.

I could easily see it going badly. NIT bids and hope of an eventual NCAA Tournament appearance are much better than what could easily happen when you consider how tough a job W&M is.

It's a high risk decision with minimal upside. The NCAA Tournament was going to happen eventually for Shaver. It was a simple matter of them being "due", and having consistently been near the top of the conference.

Again, it's easy to say Shaver is "due" after 16 years. All the negatives withstanding at W&M, no way on earth UNCW would keep a coach for 16 years with that record and zero CAA championships or NCAA appearances. I'm sure it hasn't helped that NU, Hofstra and CofC arrived and surpassed the Tribe in basketball to boot.
03-13-2019 07:30 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 07:30 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Again, it's easy to say Shaver is "due" after 16 years. All the negatives withstanding at W&M, no way on earth UNCW would keep a coach for 16 years with that record and zero CAA championships or NCAA appearances. I'm sure it hasn't helped that NU, Hofstra and CofC arrived and surpassed the Tribe in basketball to boot.

Again, comparing UNCW and W&M is a futile exercise. CAA coaches ranked UNCW the # 2 job in the league. They voted W&M the # 9 job in the league. Complete apples to oranges in terms of resources and academic standards, and you can't wave that away.

In addition, UNCW has been a strong program for decades, even before our first NCAA Tournament appearance. W&M was wandering in the desert until Shaver arrived. He took them from a bottom of the barrel D-I program to a consistently strong, winning program.

Prior to Shaver, the Tribe had had four 20-win seasons and one NIT appearance in its nearly 100-year history (1905-2003). In 16 years Shaver had four 20-win seasons and 2 NIT appearances himself. They also earned a Regular Season title in 2015 and Shaver was 2x CAA Coach of the Year. In the 10 seasons before Shaver arrived, the program only won more than 12 games in a season once in that span. He's by FAR the best coach in their long program's history.

Not even close when you compare the two programs. Thus, you absolutely cannot say we'd have run out of patience if the circumstances here were the same as they are at W&M. And it should be taken as evidence that the overwhelming majority of W&M fans on their board are either sad or outraged today.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019 07:52 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
03-13-2019 07:33 PM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Any chance this is the first step in a move to eliminate football and beef up the basketball program?
03-13-2019 07:53 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
Lots of sadness over at our Board. Would have been a really fun journey next year. I have lots of respect for you guys and your program. But, to put things in perspective, you guys have won 6 CAA Championships, ODU has won 8. When I was a student, we were a total doormat. So bad that it looked like it would last forever. Between 1987 and 2003 the Tribe won 2 total CAA tourney games(that includes play in rounds). Tony built the program into a consistent, year in year out competitive CAA team. It took time, the first few years were very lean. The leap we took from consistent play in round loser to finalist(3 wins including beating top seeded VCU) in 2008 was amazing. It continued in 2010, but ODU was in the way in the finals. Then, in the last 6 years the Tribe lost in 2014 and 2015 in the finals with Marcus Thornton leading the team. It was a near miss, probably one FT miss with the lead and a minute to go. Not really any different than last season's Northeastern loss in the finals to Charleston except that they had a 2015 title(sigh). Even in 2017, the Tribe beat your eventual champions in the regular season(as your first loss) and was very competitive against you guys in the semis. Your 2017 was likely still the best CAA team of the last 5+ years. So, the Tribe was never the best team in any one year, but was among the best every year. I just think a 2020 or bust opportunity was the better call, if this was going to occur at all. If any of our top players leave due to this decision, then it absolutely was the wrong one(short-term). And 2020 is a favorable tourney venue for the Tribe, much more so than Charleston was. I expect Coach Shaver will get hired quickly and will be successful. Today, I am sad, shocked, and struggling to see what hire will work better with the core we had coming back including our entire starting 5 plus LJ Owens, Cameron Brown and Andy Van Vliet(a 7 foot transfer from Wisconsin). Coach Shaver represented all things W&M very well and with class. BTW, 5 schools have no CAA title since Coach Shaver arrived(Towson, Drexel, Hofstra, Elon). JMU has one(but has been really, really bad for the rest of the time). Delaware also has one(but has been terrible nearly every other year as well). So, ultimate success has eluded a lot of programs. Maybe it is as simple as we could not deal with losing to Delaware again. I don't think anything the Tribe could have done would have led to beating the Huskies this year.
03-13-2019 07:58 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Post: #35
Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 07:53 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Any chance this is the first step in a move to eliminate football and beef up the basketball program?

Eliminate football at William and Mary?

Not a chance in all kinds of frozen he’ll that would ever happen. Ever. Their alumni would torch the AD’s office.


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03-13-2019 08:02 PM
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82hawk Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 08:02 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 07:53 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Any chance this is the first step in a move to eliminate football and beef up the basketball program?

Eliminate football at William and Mary?

Not a chance in all kinds of frozen he’ll that would ever happen. Ever. Their alumni would torch the AD’s office.


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Never say never. Football eats athletic budgets alive. Not only in actual football program costs, but in Title IX requirements. William and Mary seems to be executing a pretty radical change in their athletic department and a mediocre FCS program brings in very little money compared to expenses.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2019 08:11 PM by 82hawk.)
03-13-2019 08:10 PM
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getmhawks Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
What a huge mistake. Can't believe that.
03-13-2019 08:37 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 08:10 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 08:02 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(03-13-2019 07:53 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Any chance this is the first step in a move to eliminate football and beef up the basketball program?

Eliminate football at William and Mary?

Not a chance in all kinds of frozen he’ll that would ever happen. Ever. Their alumni would torch the AD’s office.


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Never say never. Football eats athletic budgets alive. Not only in actual football program costs, but in Title IX requirements. William and Mary seems to be executing a pretty radical change in their athletic department and a mediocre FCS program brings in very little money compared to expenses.

Well. I see you made a similar post over on the WM board and someone responded with “lol”.

You’re not wrong about football eating budgets and the impact it has on Title IX. However, you’re very wrong on WM ever making a decision to ditch football. They’re very much a football school, but have become a basketball program on the rise (for their standards). They compete for conference championships just haven’t gotten it quite done yet.


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03-13-2019 08:37 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
CG would know.

Where do you think he spends his Saturdays
03-13-2019 08:56 PM
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Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(03-13-2019 08:56 PM)solohawks Wrote:  CG would know.

Where do you think he spends his Saturdays

If he was thinking your mother’s house... well, he’s not wrong. Most of the year.


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03-13-2019 09:03 PM
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