(03-02-2019 01:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  You cannot boot an equity member of your company. And that is basically what conferences are these days.

This BTW is exactly why your stupid conference expansion ideas are terrible. You are stuck with schools for the next 100 years, or until the decide to leave. So never add a bottom dweller.

As for my old school, either the CSU charter is amended to allow freedom to be selective on admission and to have more rigorous specialties, or you will see San Jose State drop football and out of the MWC in the next 5 to 10 years -- lack of strong residential students lead to poor alumni interest. Fresno State is also in steep decline, faces similar and perhaps worse demographic trends, but they peaked a decade after us (we peaked late 80s they peaked a decade or so later), so their curve is a decade behind ours but not good either.

In a way these are survivors of the CSU collapse in the 90s, when Long Beach and Fullerton dropped 1-A football, and several D-II schools dropped Football and moved athletics to irrelevance. SJSU looks like it is just a few years away from that decision, Fresno State marching down that same road, but still has a small fire burning. IMO it's almost irreversible.

Bottom line, come 2025 the MWC wont have to do anything, SJSU will have made the decision for them. The death watch will shift to Fresno.

IMO it's the same forces of slow starvation at work in the CSU schools which have basically destroyed the MVC directional schools.

Fresno State will survive as long as they win the MWC football titles. Long Beach, Fullerton, Northridge and UC-Irvine showed some hints of adding football. long Beach, Fullerton and UC-irvine do have better sports at winning than San Jose State.

You could add North Dakota State as a football only member for number 12 to replace San Jose State. They do know how to beat the P5 schools.

DavidSt,

You know nothing about the declining funding and declining donation problems at Fresno State nor the challenges of the San Joaquin Valley (poverty rate is frightening). The city is following a pattern of California cities finding less and less of their identity in the college bearing their name. It is not a Boise State situation.

Fresno has a long running very loyal fan base. That team is the sporting identity of the Central Valley. They’re going nowhere.

The old Fresno State was built on JUCOs and partial qualifiers that couldn't make it at PAC schools.

Their football program has been totally revamped. Fresno State had a APR of 947 last year between BYU at 949 and Arizona at 946. They are running a modern program these days.

UTEP is tied with Iowa at 970. Different days indeed.

(03-01-2019 08:35 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 08:17 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  MWC would be so much more interesting with NMSU in SJSU’s slot.

Definitely for basketball but football? Eh.

Correct.

NMSU football, last 15 seasons: Total of 46 wins

SJSU football, last 15 seasons: Total of 66 wins

And just in case anyone is going to say UTEP would be a huge improvement...

UTEP football, last 15 seasons: Total of 67 wins

(03-02-2019 11:09 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(03-02-2019 10:57 AM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(03-02-2019 09:52 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  I have said that MWC 2.0 is no better than the WAC of the previous decade as its mostly the same teams and MWC left overs without BYU, TCU and Utah in it.

Will ESPN drop them entirely in the next TV deal with its new investment in the AAC? That would be my biggest question right now.

The MWC provides late time slot live events for ESPN networks. Most Tuesdays and Wednesdays they have a 10 or 11 pm EST tip off. How many AAC teams will have tip offs that late every week?

That has been the MWC's traditional niche.

But what if the AAC with its central timezone teams could offer 9pm tip offs CST? It might not be quite the same time coverage as the MWC but could partially fill.

The ESPN can fill with the later hours with world's strongest man competitions or international tennis if it wanted to over second half MWC action.

ESPN is hard up for late night programming. Tonight ESPN shows 2 losing record schools play (Colorado St vs New Mexico) I’m sure they’d prefer Utah St vs Nevada but CBS-SN gets first pick of all the MWC basketball games.

I have resisted joining this chorus for some time as I don’t think it’s a good look but after this year it’s hard to think otherwise.

Football
San Jose State was 120th.

ECU
ODU
Rutgers
WKU
South Alabama
San Jose
Bowling Green
Georgia State
UTSA
Texas State
New Mexico State
Kent
Central Michigan
Rice
U Conn
UTEP 267


In Basketball, San Jose has NET Rating of 336
Of the bad football schools the next closest bad basketball school is UTEP at 267.

(03-02-2019 11:11 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 10:34 PM)bluesox Wrote:  They could drop football and join the big west.

Not sure the Big West would take them. It would upset the conference’s politically-important UC-CSU balance.

The alternative would be to join the WAC, which is looking a lot more stable with its recent additions and improvement in men’s basketball.

Isn't SJSU the flagship of the CSU system? I think the Big West takes them no questions asked and figures out the UC problem later.

(03-02-2019 12:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Football could work with 2 divisions:

West - Hawaii, San Diego State, Fresno State, Boise State, Nevada, UNLV
Mountain - Utah State, Colorado State, Air Force, New Mexico, Wyoming

Mountain Division teams play each other, then for teams from the West Division for a total of eight games. Four of the six teams in the West will have three crossover games, and then play a round-robin in their division for a total of eight games. The other two West Division teams will have four games against the Mountain Division, and then play everyone except each other inside their own division, also for a total of eight games. If you need a complete round-robin in both divisions, that winds up making nine conference games for those two schools, and eight conference games for everyone else.

The other option is to drop the conference championship game, and just play eight games with two no-plays.

More likely, the Mountain West starts having discussions with New Mexico State about football-only membership.

If your going to take NMSU football you may as well go all in on the rest of the sports as well. It brings in another Utah State type of basketball program and that's a great thing. Give them an ultimatum though, invest in your facilities and coaches or you will be out the door as well.

(03-02-2019 03:36 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  DavidSt,

You know nothing about the declining funding and declining donation problems at Fresno State nor the challenges of the San Joaquin Valley (poverty rate is frightening). The city is following a pattern of California cities finding less and less of their identity in the college bearing their name. It is not a Boise State situation.

I do know about California and a couple big differences seperate Fresno and San Jose.

The first is alternatives for your entertainment dollar. San Jose State is among the most competitive areas for your entertainment dollar. We both know more than a few San Jose State alums who attend Stanford games because Stanford tickets are relatively inexpensive. That doesn’t even account for 49’er, A’s, Giants, Warrior, Sharks, Earthquakes. Fresno has no alternative to the Bulldogs closer than 3 hours away. That provides a base attendance level San Jose doesn’t have.

Cost of Living for coaches is the second. To be decent you need to attract good coaches. Fresno has two in Tedford and Hutson. San Jose can’t pay enough to overcome the cost of living in the Bay Area. That severely limits the quality of coaches you can attract.

Commute times is the third. Fresno pulls fans from Modesto to Bakersfield. You can travel up and down the 99 relatively easily. Getting anywhere in the Bay can be a multi hour proposition due to the worst traffic in the nation. The thought of a couple hour drive in traffic to spend the few disposable dollars I have left after paying my mortgage is not super appealing.

Yes Fresno has some funding challenges like many schools. Yes changes in admission policies for impacted campuses and to create a more residential environment would help. But the underlying dynamics of the two schools are very different.

(03-03-2019 02:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(03-02-2019 11:11 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 10:34 PM)bluesox Wrote:  They could drop football and join the big west.

Not sure the Big West would take them. It would upset the conference’s politically-important UC-CSU balance.

The alternative would be to join the WAC, which is looking a lot more stable with its recent additions and improvement in men’s basketball.

Isn't SJSU the flagship of the CSU system? I think the Big West takes them no questions asked and figures out the UC problem later.

The UC - Cal State balance matters. Lots of animosity between those systems. Most of it stemming from a push by the Cal States 15 years ago for a change in the states general education plan to allow the Cal States to offer Doctoral degrees in applied sciences. The UC squelched the plan.

Much of the poverty StugRay mentioned is because the UC system is heavily concentrated in the coastal cities while the Central Valley has mostly Cal State institutions. As a result, the valley is IP poor while the coast is IP rich. This hatred is further inflamed by UC’s saying schools like Fresno and SDSU could never join the PAC-12 due to Academics when everyone knows the lack of Doctoral Programs is due to UC political influence.

It has gone so far as to have a number of initiatives put in place to split the state in two. I have often said if the Big 12 were to add Fresno and SDSU they would immediately have half the state as Big 12 fans. PAC-12 ratings would tank even further.

(03-03-2019 01:49 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  I have resisted joining this chorus for some time as I don’t think it’s a good look but after this year it’s hard to think otherwise.

Football
San Jose State was 120th.

ECU
ODU
Rutgers
WKU
South Alabama
San Jose
Bowling Green
Georgia State
UTSA
Texas State
New Mexico State
Kent
Central Michigan
Rice
U Conn
UTEP 267


In Basketball, San Jose has NET Rating of 336
Of the bad football schools the next closest bad basketball school is UTEP at 267.

Hopefully the coach we got from Fresno State will turn the basketball program around. If not, he needs to go. I really hope the new AD is not like the guy he replaced.......keeping football and basketball coaches for too long.

(03-03-2019 02:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(03-02-2019 11:11 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 10:34 PM)bluesox Wrote:  They could drop football and join the big west.

Not sure the Big West would take them. It would upset the conference’s politically-important UC-CSU balance.

The alternative would be to join the WAC, which is looking a lot more stable with its recent additions and improvement in men’s basketball.

Isn't SJSU the flagship of the CSU system? I think the Big West takes them no questions asked and figures out the UC problem later.

Forget the Cal State - UC balance aspect. How does the Big West benefit from potentially bringing back San Jose State? Shouldn't a 12th member be more than just another NET and RPI anchor?

Mongoose, Stugray, what does SJSU bring to the table?

(03-03-2019 02:52 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(03-03-2019 02:15 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(03-02-2019 11:11 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 10:34 PM)bluesox Wrote:  They could drop football and join the big west.

Not sure the Big West would take them. It would upset the conference’s politically-important UC-CSU balance.

The alternative would be to join the WAC, which is looking a lot more stable with its recent additions and improvement in men’s basketball.

Isn't SJSU the flagship of the CSU system? I think the Big West takes them no questions asked and figures out the UC problem later.

The UC - Cal State balance matters. Lots of animosity between those systems. Most of it stemming from a push by the Cal States 15 years ago for a change in the states general education plan to allow the Cal States to offer Doctoral degrees in applied sciences. The UC squelched the plan.

Much of the poverty StugRay mentioned is because the UC system is heavily concentrated in the coastal cities while the Central Valley has mostly Cal State institutions. As a result, the valley is IP poor while the coast is IP rich. This hatred is further inflamed by UC’s saying schools like Fresno and SDSU could never join the PAC-12 due to Academics when everyone knows the lack of Doctoral Programs is due to UC political influence.

It has gone so far as to have a number of initiatives put in place to split the state in two. I have often said if the Big 12 were to add Fresno and SDSU they would immediately have half the state as Big 12 fans. PAC-12 ratings would tank even further.

The balance matters up to a point. Nobody raised a stink when SDSU was added in 2011 to upset the Cal State - UC balance.. Had they and Boise stuck around the Big West would have had more CSUs than UCs and at least two non-California members.

Depends on who the Cal State in question is. I doubt anyone wants another dumpster fire though.

SJSU has the 2nd largest endowment, is the oldest CSU and would give schools in the Big West regular play in the South bay where the WCAL and EBAL recruiting zones are.

They would add SJSU in a heart beat. They took Bakersfield and Northridge for heavens sake.

I do think the mind set of SJSU is such that we could have the motto:

We do mediocrity sorta OK

They took Northridge and UCR out of desperation to stay afloat after Boise, NMSU, Nevada and North Texas left in 2000 and 2001. I thought you knew that.

And CSUB was added only after all of the following took place: first being told no, then Hawaii, SDSU and Boise were added, then SDSU and Boise backed out, then Pacific leaves, then UCSD passed their D1 referendum, and then finally weaseled their way into a golden ticket by raising a stink about UCSD getting in before them.

At least CSUB has an NIT semifinal appearance and NCAA bid in basketball this decade. Gotta bring something to the table athletically.

(03-02-2019 08:08 AM)EvanJ Wrote:  With 11 teams, dropping San Jose State without adding anyone would let the MWC make an 18 game balanced schedule for Men's Basketball and Women's Basketball, while allowing every team to play on the same day, which is impossible with an odd amount.

They already have 11 as Hawaii is a FB only member.

(03-03-2019 10:45 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(03-02-2019 08:08 AM)EvanJ Wrote:  With 11 teams, dropping San Jose State without adding anyone would let the MWC make an 18 game balanced schedule for Men's Basketball and Women's Basketball, while allowing every team to play on the same day, which is impossible with an odd amount.

They already have 11 as Hawaii is a FB only member.

Yes, and dropping SJSU would put the Mountain West at a 10 full / 11 football.

(03-03-2019 10:36 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  They took Northridge and UCR out of desperation to stay afloat after Boise, NMSU, Nevada and North Texas left in 2000 and 2001. I thought you knew that.

And CSUB was added only after all of the following took place: first being told no, then Hawaii, SDSU and Boise were added, then SDSU and Boise backed out, then Pacific leaves, then UCSD passed their D1 referendum, and then finally weaseled their into a golden ticket by raising a stink about UCSD getting in before them.

At least CSUB has an NIT semifinal appearance and NCAA bid in basketball this decade. Gotta bring something to the table athletically.

I'm with you on this one. Even if the UC/CSU balance were not a factor I'd have qualms about adding SJSU to the Big West given their lack of competitiveness in men's basketball. The conference is already in bad shape RPI-wise and doesn't need another bottom-feeder. I don't think the institutional fit and the benefit of having a Bay Area presence are enough to offset that negative.