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Why renewables can't save the planet
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Why renewables can't save the planet
... or even supply our base electrical demand.

https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-ren...he-planet/
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2019 12:31 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
03-01-2019 12:20 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #2
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
Base demand has to supplied by firm supply. Solar and wind can't be firm supply to meet base demand. Maybe some day we will improve storage to the point that they can. But right now they can't.
03-01-2019 12:32 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
Not yet.
03-01-2019 02:06 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-01-2019 02:06 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not yet.

Yes, maybe some day. And we should do what we can to hasten that day. But we need to recognize that day may take some time to come, and trying to force the issue before we are ready will do more harm than none.

Saying we want a green energy society some day is a laudable goal. Saying that we have to be 100% green energy in 10 years is an absurd one.

And I know, I've heard all about how JFK created a space program that put a man on the moon within a decade. Except that's not what happened. We had a space program that was well on the way to putting man on the moon by probably 1975, and JFK's "within the decade" deadline just ratcheted up the urgency. Actually, we had two competing ideas, one from NASA to go directly from the moon, and one from Werner von Braun's Redstone Arsenal army skunk works to put a space station in orbit first, and go to the moon from the space station. The NASA approach was the only one that could deliver within the decade, the von Braun approach would take longer because of the intermediate step, and what JFK effectively did was choose the NASA approach over von Braun's. I had several relatives who were working at the von Braun skunk works, and I remember that the JFK speech infuriated them. Before JFK's speech, we had astronauts, three of them had already flown in space, the rockets that eventually took us to the moon were already under design, and many of their features were already under testing.

Here is a video from 1955 with von Braun outlining the Army plan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXIDFx74aSY

There is nothing in progress which will get us to a green society within 15 years. The Green Stupid Deal is not a questions of accelerating something that is already very well underway. It's creating out of whole cloth things that simply are not anywhere close to being ready. And a JFK speech won't change that reality.
(This post was last modified: 03-03-2019 05:29 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-01-2019 02:50 PM
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arkstfan Online
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Post: #5
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
I’m not so concerned about saving the planet.

What does interest me is reducing demand for oil so that prices fall reducing the transfer of wealth to nations that are a pain and hostile to western liberal democracy.

Even more vital, reducing the geopolitical significance of the Middle East thus reducing the need for the US to try to keep it stable and in the zone of defense
03-02-2019 10:00 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
"Save the planet" is pretty pretentious anyways.

To quote Ian Malcolm (from the book Jurassic Park): ""Let's be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet - or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.""
03-03-2019 12:03 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-02-2019 10:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I’m not so concerned about saving the planet.

What does interest me is reducing demand for oil so that prices fall reducing the transfer of wealth to nations that are a pain and hostile to western liberal democracy.

Even more vital, reducing the geopolitical significance of the Middle East thus reducing the need for the US to try to keep it stable and in the zone of defense

Yep. Hit the nail on the head.

Environmentalism isn't necessarily bad. Saving species and promoting healthy ecosystems are good things. But now that acid rain and unsustainable hunting practices have ceased to be a threat in the USA, the environmental movement has little left to accomplish in this country.
03-03-2019 12:11 AM
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EigenEagle Online
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Post: #8
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-03-2019 12:11 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-02-2019 10:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I’m not so concerned about saving the planet.

What does interest me is reducing demand for oil so that prices fall reducing the transfer of wealth to nations that are a pain and hostile to western liberal democracy.

Even more vital, reducing the geopolitical significance of the Middle East thus reducing the need for the US to try to keep it stable and in the zone of defense

Yep. Hit the nail on the head.

Environmentalism isn't necessarily bad. Saving species and promoting healthy ecosystems are good things. But now that acid rain and unsustainable hunting practices have ceased to be a threat in the USA, the environmental movement has little left to accomplish in this country.

I don't have a problem with environmentalism. I have a problem with feel-good environmentalism, and that's what environmentalism today is. It's the reason people pat themselves on the back for driving electric cars that are charged by coal power and for banning plastic straws that don't make up 1% of 1% of ocean plastic. It's also the Paris Climate Accord which basically wasn't going to change how any country approached climate.

The issue of nuclear power is the worst example. The evidence couldn't be clearer that renewables make electricity costs go up and don't reduce emissions. Remember how greenies used to gush about Germany's renewable energy investments? Their emissions have flat-lined, while France and Sweden (two countries with a high percentage of energy coming from nuclear) look better. But no, let's abandon objectively the safest source of energy because "Fukushima! Radiation! Baaaaaaaad!".

BTW, Mike Schellenberger (author of the article in the OP) has a good article shooting down the arguments about nuclear waste.
(This post was last modified: 03-03-2019 10:59 AM by EigenEagle.)
03-03-2019 10:45 AM
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arkstfan Online
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Post: #9
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-03-2019 12:11 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-02-2019 10:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I’m not so concerned about saving the planet.

What does interest me is reducing demand for oil so that prices fall reducing the transfer of wealth to nations that are a pain and hostile to western liberal democracy.

Even more vital, reducing the geopolitical significance of the Middle East thus reducing the need for the US to try to keep it stable and in the zone of defense

Yep. Hit the nail on the head.

Environmentalism isn't necessarily bad. Saving species and promoting healthy ecosystems are good things. But now that acid rain and unsustainable hunting practices have ceased to be a threat in the USA, the environmental movement has little left to accomplish in this country.

Well there is plenty to accomplish but the BIG stuff is pretty much done, we aren't seeing major US cities issuing alerts very often that kids, the sick and the old should stay indoors indefinitely because of the air, and we've not seen any rivers catch fire lately.

We have more data than ever and should be at a point where we rethink some of our emission limits upward and downward
03-04-2019 10:26 AM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-03-2019 10:45 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  
(03-03-2019 12:11 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-02-2019 10:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I’m not so concerned about saving the planet.

What does interest me is reducing demand for oil so that prices fall reducing the transfer of wealth to nations that are a pain and hostile to western liberal democracy.

Even more vital, reducing the geopolitical significance of the Middle East thus reducing the need for the US to try to keep it stable and in the zone of defense

Yep. Hit the nail on the head.

Environmentalism isn't necessarily bad. Saving species and promoting healthy ecosystems are good things. But now that acid rain and unsustainable hunting practices have ceased to be a threat in the USA, the environmental movement has little left to accomplish in this country.

I don't have a problem with environmentalism. I have a problem with feel-good environmentalism, and that's what environmentalism today is. It's the reason people pat themselves on the back for driving electric cars that are charged by coal power and for banning plastic straws that don't make up 1% of 1% of ocean plastic. It's also the Paris Climate Accord which basically wasn't going to change how any country approached climate.

The issue of nuclear power is the worst example. The evidence couldn't be clearer that renewables make electricity costs go up and don't reduce emissions. Remember how greenies used to gush about Germany's renewable energy investments? Their emissions have flat-lined, while France and Sweden (two countries with a high percentage of energy coming from nuclear) look better. But no, let's abandon objectively the safest source of energy because "Fukushima! Radiation! Baaaaaaaad!".

BTW, Mike Schellenberger (author of the article in the OP) has a good article shooting down the arguments about nuclear waste.

EXACTLY.

I think most of us try and be good stewards to the environment, but that doesn't mean we have to revert back to caveman days to do it.

We can be responsible AND still live a modern lifestyle. THAT'S what most of the enviro-nuts seem to forget.

It always slaved me when discussions about the environment and being "green" start with "all options are open"..... Then comes the exception list which seems to limit the choices to wind & solar.

In order for a source to be used on a massive scale and become a large part of the equation, it has to be cheap, easy, and readily available or people won't use it. Another thing the enviro-nuts can't seem to grasp, which is why they try and "legislate" this behavior.

You won't play by our rules.... We'll force you....
03-04-2019 11:48 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
Bottom line is that it doesn’t make a drop in the bucket worth of difference what we do as long as China and India are not onboard. We could go to zero or even negative carbon, and as long as they keep going that disaster being projected for 2120 will still happen.

What I find interesting is that we did not join Kyoto and we have withdrawn from Paris, but as best I can tell, we are the only country meeting our carbon reduction goals under either accord. The rest of the world is big on giving speeches and drawing up unreasonable demands, but not so good at following up and making things happen.
(This post was last modified: 03-04-2019 11:55 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-04-2019 04:15 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-03-2019 12:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  "Save the planet" is pretty pretentious anyways.

To quote Ian Malcolm (from the book Jurassic Park): ""Let's be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet - or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.""

We do have the power to destroy the atmosphere. And that's all that matters.
03-04-2019 05:02 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-04-2019 05:02 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-03-2019 12:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  "Save the planet" is pretty pretentious anyways.

To quote Ian Malcolm (from the book Jurassic Park): ""Let's be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet - or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.""

We do have the power to destroy the atmosphere. And that's all that matters.

Fine. Then say that. Don't say we're destroying "the planet."

Words mean things. Don't say one thing when you mean another. It misleads most people and confuses the rest. In the end it drives people away from the cause.

Although with modern-day "environmentalists," I don't think "the cause" is actually the environment. It's a means to an end; a way of taking away property rights and transferring control of the means of production to the government.
03-04-2019 11:53 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-04-2019 11:53 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-04-2019 05:02 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-03-2019 12:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  "Save the planet" is pretty pretentious anyways.

To quote Ian Malcolm (from the book Jurassic Park): ""Let's be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet - or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.""

We do have the power to destroy the atmosphere. And that's all that matters.

Fine. Then say that. Don't say we're destroying "the planet."

Words mean things. Don't say one thing when you mean another. It misleads most people and confuses the rest. In the end it drives people away from the cause.

Although with modern-day "environmentalists," I don't think "the cause" is actually the environment. It's a means to an end; a way of taking away property rights and transferring control of the means of production to the government.

Yea, I would agree with that. Maybe they think it's simpler to say that? But it's less accurate.

I think there are lots of environmentalists that are just interested in protecting the environment and are not trying to transfer control of anything (The Nature Conservancy is a good example IMO). I'm sure there are some that are, though. In any group you have people that are overzealous.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2019 10:47 AM by NIU007.)
03-05-2019 10:46 AM
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CameramanJ Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
"I cannot save you. I can't even save myself."

The unfortunate fact is that most of the mainstream (and just about everything covered by the MSM) environmentalism has devolved into "feel-good" environmentalism. Even "feel-good" is corrupted nowadays. We used to feel good about the things that we had accomplished and we just needed to take the edge off the feeling that we didn't do enough in the big picture. Now, we don't do enough and we know it -- and we manufacture temporary bliss to bluff our way back to even. The big picture is lost on the many. As advanced as we are becoming and as mind-bendingly sci-fi things may be fifty years from now, the trajectory of the common psyche is troubling.

Apathy to stagnation, and then downward into malaise. At the bottom of the maelstrom lies oblivion. We have the power to move onward and upward, out of the spiral and spinning out into the grand expanse of existential possibility, but we choose not to. (I'm not on either of the polar opposites, just a moderate wedged somewhere between their pointy egos.)

I just want our species to survive further into the annals of time, man. Our lifespan is less than a blink in the life of the universe and we need to make the best of it.
03-08-2019 10:06 PM
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RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
(03-05-2019 10:46 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-04-2019 11:53 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-04-2019 05:02 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-03-2019 12:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  "Save the planet" is pretty pretentious anyways.

To quote Ian Malcolm (from the book Jurassic Park): ""Let's be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet - or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.""

We do have the power to destroy the atmosphere. And that's all that matters.

Fine. Then say that. Don't say we're destroying "the planet."

Words mean things. Don't say one thing when you mean another. It misleads most people and confuses the rest. In the end it drives people away from the cause.

Although with modern-day "environmentalists," I don't think "the cause" is actually the environment. It's a means to an end; a way of taking away property rights and transferring control of the means of production to the government.

Yea, I would agree with that. Maybe they think it's simpler to say that? But it's less accurate.

I think there are lots of environmentalists that are just interested in protecting the environment and are not trying to transfer control of anything (The Nature Conservancy is a good example IMO). I'm sure there are some that are, though. In any group you have people that are overzealous.

Ehhh...I’m not so sure we can really do anything about climate change in the long run. Too many of us seem to forget our high school earth sciences. We aren’t facing another chicxulub. We are facing another event like the Permian-triassic extinction event. That event took 30 million years to resolve itself.

The Far Left is fond of quoting the “97 percent of climate scientists agree that climate change is happening” line, but that doesn’t tell the full story. The same study the quoted line comes from also states that, of that 97 percent, 80 percent believe humans are a factor. The study goes on to differentiate between those who believe humans are the most important factor, and those who believe humans are a lesser factor. In other words, the study suggests a consensus of climate scientists believe climate change is happening, but they disagree widely over the role humanity plays in that change...

...which is not what the Left and the MSM want you to believe it says.
03-09-2019 02:58 PM
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EigenEagle Online
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Post: #17
RE: Why renewables can't save the planet
Mile Schellenberger keeps dishing out reality checks for the renewables crowd.


04-02-2019 01:04 PM
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