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(03-01-2019 02:58 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 04:48 PM)monarx Wrote:  "To compare Jones and a Rhodes is ludicrous. I’m sorry. Completely different situations. VCU has everything going for them. Only show in town. Better fan support. Better basketball conference. Much easier to schedule. Higher profile scheduling and national exposure. The highest profile non conference tournaments. Television and rivalries. More opportunities across the board.... the A10 is god aweful this year and Is still perceived to be much better. They have 6 out of 14 teams with a winning record. "

ODU has everything going for it. We're also the only show in town. Even more so really, because they have UR in their backyard while we have NSU/HU. Used to have equal fan support when we were going to the NCAAs and were in the same basketball conference. Had the same profile, tournaments and we are their biggest rival. I think they are very, very similar situations. The only difference is our AD/Coach and our conference. And conference affiliation isn't the coaches fault, that falls squarely on the AD and President. There is absolutely no reason ODU should not be equal to if not better than VCU. Football was supposed to increase exposure, make it a more attractive place to recruit athletes and students, and get us on TV and into a higher profile conference. Why hasn't it worked out that way?

Spot on. Those who think VCU has built in advantages are selling ODU short just to rationalize the lot we are currently in. There is absolutely no reason that we should not be competing at the same level as them as a program.

I’m not saying that VCU should be a better program or in a better situation. But national perception says otherwise. I don’t see ODU getting home and home series with Virginia and Texas. I don’t see ODU playing in the Maui invitational or playing neutral site games with St Johns and Seton Hall. These are clear advantages. Even in a year where the A10 is garbage, they are perceived to be better than us. ODU beat VCU. Both teams have the same record. Yet everyone says VCU is in as an 8 seed and ODU is a 13 or 14. Those are just facts. That’s called National recognition and respect.

They caught lightning in a bottle in the NCAAs in a year they shouldn't have even been invited. You have to give them credit though for taking that and maximizing everything they could get out of it. Upgraded the coaching budget, upgraded recruiting, upgraded facilities (though I can't believe they still play at Costco), upgraded donations, grew their fanbase. We have to travel all over the country and thus money is the reason we cannot do better than W&M, JMU, and UR on our regular OOC schedule. Most people would also say Richmond, who works with the school, is a better city right now and they are in the middle of it while we are several miles away from Norfolk, who works against the school. They definitely have advantages right now. We definitely have the better arena and the beach if you really care about that. Let's hope if we catch lightning in a bottle we go the VCU route and not the George Mason route.

I think ODU should have all those advantages as well. But VCU went to the final four and 7 straight NCAAs.
The only thing I was arguing in my initial post was the “Rhodes has turned VCU around” statement which is completely laughable.

(03-01-2019 03:21 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  They caught lightning in a bottle in the NCAAs in a year they shouldn't have even been invited. You have to give them credit though for taking that and maximizing everything they could get out of it. Upgraded the coaching budget, upgraded recruiting, upgraded facilities (though I can't believe they still play at Costco), upgraded donations, grew their fanbase. We have to travel all over the country and thus money is the reason we cannot do better than W&M, JMU, and UR on our regular OOC schedule. Most people would also say Richmond, who works with the school, is a better city right now and they are in the middle of it while we are several miles away from Norfolk, who works against the school. They definitely have advantages right now. We definitely have the better arena and the beach if you really care about that. Let's hope if we catch lightning in a bottle we go the VCU route and not the George Mason route.

I think the main difference here is that GMU has historically had a terrible basketball program. Take away Jim Larannaga and they have never done anything.

(03-01-2019 03:16 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  I’m not saying that VCU should be a better program or in a better situation. But national perception says otherwise. I don’t see ODU getting home and home series with Virginia and Texas. I don’t see ODU playing in the Maui invitational or playing neutral site games with St Johns and Seton Hall. These are clear advantages. Even in a year where the A10 is garbage, they are perceived to be better than us. ODU beat VCU. Both teams have the same record. Yet everyone says VCU is in as an 8 seed and ODU is a 13 or 14. Those are just facts. That’s called National recognition and respect.

1. Even for as successful as VCU has been in the past decade, with the exception of Virginia, the only power-conference home-and-home they got on their own was Georgia Tech (they lost both times). The other series (Oklahoma, Alabama, Texas, LSU) were results of losing their coaches to those schools and the out clause VCU has in their coaches' contracts requiring a home-and-home from the hiring school. It's hard to get power-conference teams to play you straight up unless a) it's a contractual obligation like with VCU, or b) they're not all that good.

2. That said, VCU has definitely parlayed their success into better in-season tournaments. Apparently they'll be going back to Maui and Atlantis in the next few years, and next year they're going to the Emerald Coast Classic with Tennessee, FSU and Purdue. Of course, right now ODU is struggling to do well in those tournaments so it may be better that they play in ones like next season's, which they should at least have a chance to win.

3. It's more the metrics than the "reputation". Loyola-Chicago went to the Final Four last season and this year they're generally considered a 15 seed. Wofford has never won a Division 1 postseason game and never been even in the discussion for an at-large yet everyone has them between 7 and 10. I suspect the NET will end up having less of an impact on the selection committee than the RPI used to because it's in its first year of use and it'll be easier to call into question (especially statistical outliers like N.C. State, whose RPI is 92 but NET is 31 because they ran the score up on garbage in the OOC).

Someone should ask Lunardi or Palm or one of the more prominent bracketeers about how they match ODU and VCU up.

I suppose Cincinatti and Wichita State aren’t considered power conference programs but VCU has either had or is in the middle of home and homes with those programs. That’s pretty good in addition to Georgia Tech, the 2 home and homes with UVA (with likely more to come per the AD). I don’t think anyone is going to apologize for the Oklahoma/Alabama/ Texas series we’ve benefitted from and the upcoming LSU series we are going to benefit from as a result of shrewd coaching contract stipulations.

I think ODU is, can be and has been a formidable basketball program. 2011 was really a ‘catch lightning in a bottle’ season for us, but we’ve done everything to run with it since. The reality is that it’s extremely rare and takes so many things breaking right to do. ODU might be able to do something similar with the kind of opportunity VCU got but there’s no guarantee ODU will and the odds are very much against it happening as much as the odds of a 2011 happening for VCU again are.

It’s good to see ODU back to where it was in the mid 2000s. All the best with your conference tournament and postseason play.

(03-01-2019 03:16 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 02:58 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 04:48 PM)monarx Wrote:  "To compare Jones and a Rhodes is ludicrous. I’m sorry. Completely different situations. VCU has everything going for them. Only show in town. Better fan support. Better basketball conference. Much easier to schedule. Higher profile scheduling and national exposure. The highest profile non conference tournaments. Television and rivalries. More opportunities across the board.... the A10 is god aweful this year and Is still perceived to be much better. They have 6 out of 14 teams with a winning record. "

ODU has everything going for it. We're also the only show in town. Even more so really, because they have UR in their backyard while we have NSU/HU. Used to have equal fan support when we were going to the NCAAs and were in the same basketball conference. Had the same profile, tournaments and we are their biggest rival. I think they are very, very similar situations. The only difference is our AD/Coach and our conference. And conference affiliation isn't the coaches fault, that falls squarely on the AD and President. There is absolutely no reason ODU should not be equal to if not better than VCU. Football was supposed to increase exposure, make it a more attractive place to recruit athletes and students, and get us on TV and into a higher profile conference. Why hasn't it worked out that way?

Spot on. Those who think VCU has built in advantages are selling ODU short just to rationalize the lot we are currently in. There is absolutely no reason that we should not be competing at the same level as them as a program.

I’m not saying that VCU should be a better program or in a better situation. But national perception says otherwise. I don’t see ODU getting home and home series with Virginia and Texas. I don’t see ODU playing in the Maui invitational or playing neutral site games with St Johns and Seton Hall. These are clear advantages. Even in a year where the A10 is garbage, they are perceived to be better than us. ODU beat VCU. Both teams have the same record. Yet everyone says VCU is in as an 8 seed and ODU is a 13 or 14. Those are just facts. That’s called National recognition and respect.

They earned that. They won the big games. They moved to the right conference. They hired the right coaches. They spent the money necessary. My point is that there is not one single reason that we could not have gotten ourselves to exactly where they are. We were basically the same until they decided to aim a lot higher than us and took their program to the next level.

(03-01-2019 04:17 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(03-01-2019 03:16 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  I’m not saying that VCU should be a better program or in a better situation. But national perception says otherwise. I don’t see ODU getting home and home series with Virginia and Texas. I don’t see ODU playing in the Maui invitational or playing neutral site games with St Johns and Seton Hall. These are clear advantages. Even in a year where the A10 is garbage, they are perceived to be better than us. ODU beat VCU. Both teams have the same record. Yet everyone says VCU is in as an 8 seed and ODU is a 13 or 14. Those are just facts. That’s called National recognition and respect.

1. Even for as successful as VCU has been in the past decade, with the exception of Virginia, the only power-conference home-and-home they got on their own was Georgia Tech (they lost both times). The other series (Oklahoma, Alabama, Texas, LSU) were results of losing their coaches to those schools and the out clause VCU has in their coaches' contracts requiring a home-and-home from the hiring school. It's hard to get power-conference teams to play you straight up unless a) it's a contractual obligation like with VCU, or b) they're not all that good.

2. That said, VCU has definitely parlayed their success into better in-season tournaments. Apparently they'll be going back to Maui and Atlantis in the next few years, and next year they're going to the Emerald Coast Classic with Tennessee, FSU and Purdue. Of course, right now ODU is struggling to do well in those tournaments so it may be better that they play in ones like next season's, which they should at least have a chance to win.

3. It's more the metrics than the "reputation". Loyola-Chicago went to the Final Four last season and this year they're generally considered a 15 seed. Wofford has never won a Division 1 postseason game and never been even in the discussion for an at-large yet everyone has them between 7 and 10. I suspect the NET will end up having less of an impact on the selection committee than the RPI used to because it's in its first year of use and it'll be easier to call into question (especially statistical outliers like N.C. State, whose RPI is 92 but NET is 31 because they ran the score up on garbage in the OOC).

Someone should ask Lunardi or Palm or one of the more prominent bracketeers about how they match ODU and VCU up.

XACLY

NET is meaningless and this is going to a bad year for bracketologists. Wofford probably deserves a bid for going 17-0 in conference, but don't be surprised to see them as an 11 or 12 and possibly in a play-in game.

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(03-01-2019 04:34 PM)VCUfan Wrote:  I suppose Cincinatti and Wichita State aren’t considered power conference programs but VCU has either had or is in the middle of home and homes with those programs. That’s pretty good in addition to Georgia Tech, the 2 home and homes with UVA (with likely more to come per the AD). I don’t think anyone is going to apologize for the Oklahoma/Alabama/ Texas series we’ve benefitted from and the upcoming LSU series we are going to benefit from as a result of shrewd coaching contract stipulations.

From a scheduling-philosophy standpoint, I don't consider the AAC a major in attitude. By that I mean generally even the AAC's better programs aren't likely to big-time a established or strong mid/upper-mid team like a P5 or better Big East program might. Cincinnati schedules VCU home-and-home, but Ohio State probably doesn't (even if Cincinnati is often a better team).

I don't think anyone begrudges VCU for getting the SEC/Big 12 games by the methods they did, just that it's about the only way VCU (or any other school in VCU's plane) would be able to do it (acknowledging that I was a VCU student when the Rams had home-and-homes against Oklahoma and Texas in the 90s). Scheduling, like so many things in college basketball, is a game in which the dice are increasingly loaded in favor of the power programs.

Quote:I think ODU is, can be and has been a formidable basketball program. 2011 was really a ‘catch lightning in a bottle’ season for us, but we’ve done everything to run with it since. The reality is that it’s extremely rare and takes so many things breaking right to do. ODU might be able to do something similar with the kind of opportunity VCU got but there’s no guarantee ODU will and the odds are very much against it happening as much as the odds of a 2011 happening for VCU again are.

Agreed. George Mason had the first chance with their 2006 run, but they couldn't get the boost to the better conference right away, they tried to cheap out on keeping Jim L and then doubled down on their screw up by taking a retread whose most attractive attribute was that Georgia Tech was still paying most of his salary. Even then it would have taken an awful lot to go right, both off and on the court. They did make the top 25 in 2011 and won their first NCAA game (which immediately got overshadowed by VCU's run), but Ohio State sat on them in the "third round" and that was that.

ODU is closer to VCU than Mason in their ability to exploit a deep NCAA run (good support and facilities, better tradition, better market presence), but in reality they only way a second- or third-weekend run can lead to lasting success is if they follow it up with at least two more strong seasons and/or work their way into the AAC. But that's easier said than done.