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[news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #201
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 03:56 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  "what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing."

You cannot say that the corporate tax reduction is the cause for our growing deficit. It simply is not true. And that is the point we were arguing with you.

but what you CAN say is that hiring and raising pay (as measured by the number of people working and hourly earnings) IS rising faster than it was previously. As much as hoped? Maybe not. More? Yes. The implication here is that they are 'bad'. That evidence is not present.

The deficit for 2018 and 19 (all the way through 2023 as I recall) was expected to rise even before Trump took office. The reason the deficit keeps growing is because that's what the 'fixed' portions of the budget have baked into them.... mostly the ACA. The question is, are they growing faster or slower than was projected by the OMB under Obama's budget. I blame Republicans for not repealing the ACA which they promised to do. I know why they didn't... but they should have tried harder, even if they still failed.

I'd also look at revenues vs expenses. If revenues are up, it's hard to argue that tax cuts caused an increase in the deficit. It seems logical that if revenues are up but expenses are up more, that it's the expenses that are the problem, not revenues.

I'll let someone else do the work to figure that out. Not my circus
02-12-2019 04:32 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #202
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 04:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 03:56 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
Redwingtom Wrote:What I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing."

You cannot say that the corporate tax reduction is the cause for our growing deficit. It simply is not true. And that is the point we were arguing with you.

but what you CAN say is that hiring and raising pay (as measured by the number of people working and hourly earnings) IS rising faster than it was previously. As much as hoped? Maybe not. More? Yes. The implication here is that they are 'bad'. That evidence is not present.

The deficit for 2018 and 19 (all the way through 2023 as I recall) was expected to rise even before Trump took office. The reason the deficit keeps growing is because that's what the 'fixed' portions of the budget have baked into them.... mostly the ACA. The question is, are they growing faster or slower than was projected by the OMB under Obama's budget. I blame Republicans for not repealing the ACA which they promised to do. I know why they didn't... but they should have tried harder, even if they still failed.

I'd also look at revenues vs expenses. If revenues are up, it's hard to argue that tax cuts caused an increase in the deficit. It seems logical that if revenues are up but expenses are up more, that it's the expenses that are the problem, not revenues.

I'll let someone else do the work to figure that out. Not my circus


FIFY - Monarch did not write the first part of that. I did. And I almost passed out thinking you actually responded to another poster and not just me. 03-lol
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2019 04:36 PM by Redwingtom.)
02-12-2019 04:35 PM
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TheDancinMonarch Offline
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Post: #203
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 07:49 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Wow,

The cult is going to cult. You used to be able to take these deductions off and they took them away. That hurt the middle class. It is what it is. We went 1.5 trillion in more debt and screwed the middle class in the process by taking away deductions that they used in the past. Spin it any way you want. People who itemized got hammered.

I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary in 2016.

As I said earlier in this thread my taxes have increased this year because of the inability to itemize or more specifically because the removal of the personal exemptions.

But that will not have any effect on my 2020 vote. A few more dollars against all of the monumental foolishness proposed by Democrats may actually force me to don gloves and vote for Trump. We'll see.
02-12-2019 04:46 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #204
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 04:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  FIFY - Monarch did not write the first part of that. I did. And I almost passed out thinking you actually responded to another poster and not just me. 03-lol

lI didn't know who wrote it... I just know that monarch quoted it so it wasn't him saying it... I was simply adding on to what he said in response to it rather than go back and find the actual quote.

The fact that you feel I only respond to you BUT so do a few others on here (which along with this incident shows that I don't seek you out as a poster) only demonstrates to me that we (you and these others vs me) often see the world entirely differently... which is precisely what i seek, hence why perhaps I often find 'you' as well as these others. I don't want an echo chamber of ideas... I am happy to learn a different perspective... even if I disagree completely.

As an example, I frequently take issue with TILB, even when I agree with him on an issue... because he rarely presents a cogent defense... one that can be agreed with logically. It's almost always an emotional response based on a preconception, which doesn't sway anyone who doesn't share that preconception. Similar with this whole 'orange man bad' thing currently rampant on the left. If you don't start from that perspective, it's hard for anyone to get to many of the conclusions that some do. Great for a echo chamber, but not for remotely intelligent discourse.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2019 06:34 PM by Hambone10.)
02-12-2019 06:30 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #205
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 04:46 PM)TheDancinMonarch Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 07:49 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Wow,

The cult is going to cult. You used to be able to take these deductions off and they took them away. That hurt the middle class. It is what it is. We went 1.5 trillion in more debt and screwed the middle class in the process by taking away deductions that they used in the past. Spin it any way you want. People who itemized got hammered.

I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary in 2016.

As I said earlier in this thread my taxes have increased this year because of the inability to itemize or more specifically because the removal of the personal exemptions.

But that will not have any effect on my 2020 vote. A few more dollars against all of the monumental foolishness proposed by Democrats may actually force me to don gloves and vote for Trump. We'll see.

you're hardly alone in that camp....

toss in your state may potentially matter....

I can only say, " 'well done' in cognizant recognition."

any version of 3rd party, is a vote for a dippo moving forward....

there's a reason DJT ran as ®....
02-12-2019 06:37 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #206
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
There's only one reason after two years this country isn't more towards the middle....democrats took it personally. Most of the things Trump ran on were things the democrats were for in the past 20 years. If not for being crybaby idiots....

there's no doubt in my mind Trump would have worked with the middle of both sides and not only would the economy be rocking (which it is) but most other things. Especially health care.

Those on the left read Trump wrong and took his mouth to mean something totally different than what he was saying. If not for the press the left would be in deep shitt. Even with the press the working poor (all races) are starting to see who's doing things for them. Again, when talking about the working class and middle class I believe all races, agree, ...allowing more people to cross our border and taking jobs that fits their skill level...is bad for this country. And them.

The working class and the poor is making out like a bandit with the higher standard deduction and child tax credit. More of them are working than any time in history. That's with the democrats fighting this President since day. Think about if the idiots had tried to work with him....on things they agreed on before he took office.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2019 06:59 PM by WKUYG.)
02-12-2019 06:58 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #207
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 06:58 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  There's only one reason after two years this country isn't more towards the middle....democrats took it personally. Most of the things Trump ran on were things the democrats were for in the past 20 years. If not for being crybaby idiots....

there's no doubt in my mind Trump would have worked with the middle of both sides and not only would the economy be rocking (which it is) but most other things. Especially health care.

Those on the left read Trump wrong and took his mouth to mean something totally different than what he was saying. If not for the press the left would be in deep shitt. Even with the press the working poor (all races) are starting to see who's doing things for them. Again, when talking about the working class and middle class I believe all races, agree, ...allowing more people to cross our border and taking jobs that fits their skill level...is bad for this country. And them.

The working class and the poor is making out like a bandit with the higher standard deduction and child tax credit. More of them are working than any time in history. That's with the democrats fighting this President since day. Think about if the idiots had tried to work with him....on things they agreed on before he took office.

Could you cite a couple please?
02-13-2019 09:33 AM
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MonarchManiac Offline
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Post: #208
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 04:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 03:56 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 01:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 12:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 11:47 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  That's just complete nonsense...and it's akin to saying a smaller refund alone is due to the tax cut. There is NO evidence for what you're stating. If so, you'd provide it. There has never been anything shown EVER to say that tax cuts alone create more revenue. And certainly not always as you claim.

We're taking in more because of improvements to the economy, and there is no evidence (at least not yet) that this is a direct result of the corporate cut. When there is, present it, and I'll gladly agree with you...but just in this case as past tax cuts alone have never been shown to have increased tax revenues.

Just to be sure, you know you just confirmed that:

A) Trumps economy is kicking Obama's economy in the ass.
B) Even with the tax cuts, we are taking in more money.

Thats reality. You can try to spin it off on hypotheticals, but its reality.

But A and B do not make C (Tax cuts create more revenue) true! And you're wildly over exaggerating A. The economy under trump has continued to improve at nearly the same level as it was under Obama for years. And there's no proof yet that the tax cuts have anything thing to do with it.

And it's not a hypothetical. There is still no proof that cutting taxes alone increases revenue. NONE!

Correlation may not equal causation here - can't really be sure, but there is also no evidence for your original assertation:

"what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing."

You cannot say that the corporate tax reduction is the cause for our growing deficit. It simply is not true. And that is the point we were arguing with you.

I didn't really say that...but whatever.

You most certainly did - I just quoted it straight from your post.

"I was opposed to the huge corporate tax cut ---> It has only lined corporations pockets ---> They are not investing as a result of the cut ----> AND THATS WHY THE DEFICIT KEEPS GROWING"
02-13-2019 09:41 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #209
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 06:58 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  There's only one reason after two years this country isn't more towards the middle....democrats took it personally. Most of the things Trump ran on were things the democrats were for in the past 20 years. If not for being crybaby idiots....
there's no doubt in my mind Trump would have worked with the middle of both sides and not only would the economy be rocking (which it is) but most other things. Especially health care.
Those on the left read Trump wrong and took his mouth to mean something totally different than what he was saying. If not for the press the left would be in deep shitt. Even with the press the working poor (all races) are starting to see who's doing things for them. Again, when talking about the working class and middle class I believe all races, agree, ...allowing more people to cross our border and taking jobs that fits their skill level...is bad for this country. And them.
The working class and the poor is making out like a bandit with the higher standard deduction and child tax credit. More of them are working than any time in history. That's with the democrats fighting this President since day. Think about if the idiots had tried to work with him....on things they agreed on before he took office.

I find it both ironic and troubling that each side has spewed noting but visceral, emotional, irrational hatred for all things associated with the leader of the other side who was most likely to be a moderate who would work with them--republicans for all things Clinton and democrats for all things Trump.

Not to deny that there has been plenty of hatred for hard-line doctrinaires--like Obama and GWB, at least after Cheney started running his life. But those are more understandable.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2019 10:04 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-13-2019 10:01 AM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #210
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-13-2019 09:33 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 06:58 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  There's only one reason after two years this country isn't more towards the middle....democrats took it personally. Most of the things Trump ran on were things the democrats were for in the past 20 years. If not for being crybaby idiots....

there's no doubt in my mind Trump would have worked with the middle of both sides and not only would the economy be rocking (which it is) but most other things. Especially health care.

Those on the left read Trump wrong and took his mouth to mean something totally different than what he was saying. If not for the press the left would be in deep shitt. Even with the press the working poor (all races) are starting to see who's doing things for them. Again, when talking about the working class and middle class I believe all races, agree, ...allowing more people to cross our border and taking jobs that fits their skill level...is bad for this country. And them.

The working class and the poor is making out like a bandit with the higher standard deduction and child tax credit. More of them are working than any time in history. That's with the democrats fighting this President since day. Think about if the idiots had tried to work with him....on things they agreed on before he took office.

Could you cite a couple please?

Before the previous 8 years here's 3 and a 4th that most democrats would go, what?

Wall
Illegal Immigration
Jobs /the working class
Russia, NK
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2019 10:04 AM by WKUYG.)
02-13-2019 10:03 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #211
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-13-2019 09:33 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 06:58 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  There's only one reason after two years this country isn't more towards the middle....democrats took it personally. Most of the things Trump ran on were things the democrats were for in the past 20 years. If not for being crybaby idiots....

there's no doubt in my mind Trump would have worked with the middle of both sides and not only would the economy be rocking (which it is) but most other things. Especially health care.

Those on the left read Trump wrong and took his mouth to mean something totally different than what he was saying. If not for the press the left would be in deep shitt. Even with the press the working poor (all races) are starting to see who's doing things for them. Again, when talking about the working class and middle class I believe all races, agree, ...allowing more people to cross our border and taking jobs that fits their skill level...is bad for this country. And them.

The working class and the poor is making out like a bandit with the higher standard deduction and child tax credit. More of them are working than any time in history. That's with the democrats fighting this President since day. Think about if the idiots had tried to work with him....on things they agreed on before he took office.

Could you cite a couple please?

Let's start with single payer
stronger gun background checks
banning bump stocks

Those are just a few off the top of my head, but they're pretty big ones for the left
02-13-2019 12:10 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #212
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-13-2019 12:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(02-13-2019 09:33 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 06:58 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  There's only one reason after two years this country isn't more towards the middle....democrats took it personally. Most of the things Trump ran on were things the democrats were for in the past 20 years. If not for being crybaby idiots....

there's no doubt in my mind Trump would have worked with the middle of both sides and not only would the economy be rocking (which it is) but most other things. Especially health care.

Those on the left read Trump wrong and took his mouth to mean something totally different than what he was saying. If not for the press the left would be in deep shitt. Even with the press the working poor (all races) are starting to see who's doing things for them. Again, when talking about the working class and middle class I believe all races, agree, ...allowing more people to cross our border and taking jobs that fits their skill level...is bad for this country. And them.

The working class and the poor is making out like a bandit with the higher standard deduction and child tax credit. More of them are working than any time in history. That's with the democrats fighting this President since day. Think about if the idiots had tried to work with him....on things they agreed on before he took office.

Could you cite a couple please?

Let's start with single payer
stronger gun background checks
banning bump stocks

Those are just a few off the top of my head, but they're pretty big ones for the left

trump ran on single payer and banning bump stocks?
02-13-2019 02:05 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #213
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-13-2019 02:05 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  trump ran on single payer and banning bump stocks?

Essentially yes.

"Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say," Trump said in a September 2015 "60 Minutes" interview. "I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now."

He added when asked who is going to pay for it: "The government’s gonna pay for it." That was enough for Breitbart, which would become vehemently pro-Trump during the 2016 campaign, to declare Trump had embraced single-payer.

And he's always been more in favor of gun control than the average Republican

These are absolutely areas where he campaigned 'to the left' of the average Republican and only moved to the right after the convention... and especially when the left started attacking him

Democrats (who were out of power at the time) could have easily re-engaged him on his positions here where they generally agreed and put him in conflict with much of his own party. Instead Dems went into 'Russia' mode and just pushed him into the mainstream of the right
02-13-2019 02:44 PM
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