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[news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
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Eagleaidaholic Offline
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Post: #181
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:27 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  My total effective rate dropped 5.11%. But $2,000 of new credits played into that. Without the new credits, my effective rate dropped 1.83%. So no, not real significantly IMO.

So, you dont mean percent, but points.

In that case, if you had taxable income of $100K, your taxes dropped $1800.

And thats supposed to be crumbs?

I never said that...I just feel it wasn't all that significant when you break it down per pay period. And before you go there, I've never been opposed to tax cuts for the middle class...what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing.

How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues
02-11-2019 04:11 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #182
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
When I deal with people it's working class that's making between 35 to 50k a year. Not each but both together. I'm not day to day or every 3 days a week any more...mostly once a week or every two weeks. But those people that I do come in contact with are making more money this year, doing the same work and same hours...hourly wage went up.

When you have a husband and wife both making $1.50 to $2.00 an hour more....that's the difference in renting at $850 a month home or saving for a down payment and buying a 100,000 dollar home and having payments around $500 a month.

This is coming from...hourly pay increases from the tax cuts and the record number of people working. So not only are these people taking home more from lower amount of taxes being withheld. Their refund is more based off the higher standard deduction and their wages increased from the millionaire they are working for...getting a tax cut.

That's the working class....if it had stayed the way it was 4 years ago we would be talking about working poor. I've seen nothing yet that the middle class has been hurt. If you are in the top of the middle to lower upper....

you might take a hit

That is not most of America and not what drives the dollars spent in our towns and cities. A house in the 65k to 150k hardly ever sits on the mark 45 days in my area. Those are working class to middle class homes. Anyone that thinks the tax cuts is not working for for lower and middle America...doesn't have a f'ing clue

Big city east or west coast...I cant speak about because housing in those areas dont compare to middle America
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2019 04:18 PM by WKUYG.)
02-11-2019 04:14 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #183
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:27 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  So, you dont mean percent, but points.

In that case, if you had taxable income of $100K, your taxes dropped $1800.

And thats supposed to be crumbs?

I never said that...I just feel it wasn't all that significant when you break it down per pay period. And before you go there, I've never been opposed to tax cuts for the middle class...what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing.

How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

what should really scare folk is that purple piece of the 'pie' chart....

this is where my gen gets to **** with dipshites...
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2019 04:19 PM by stinkfist.)
02-11-2019 04:17 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #184
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 04:14 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  When I deal with people it's working class that's making between 35 to 50k a year. Not each but both together. I'm not day to day or every 3 days a week any more...mostly once a week or every two weeks. But those people that I do come in contact with are making more money this year, doing the same work and same hours...hourly wage went up.

When you have a husband and wife both making $1.50 to $2.00 an hour more....that's the difference in renting at $850 a month home or saving for a down payment and buying a 100,000 dollar home and having payments around $500 a month.

This is coming from...hourly pay increases from the tax cuts and the record number of people working. So not only are these people taking home more from lower amount of taxes being withheld. Their refund is more based off the higher standard deduction and their wages increased from the millionaire they are working for...getting a tax cut.

That's the working class....if it had stayed the way it was 4 years ago we would be talking about working poor. I've seen nothing yet that the middle class has been hurt. If you are in the top of the middle to lower upper....

you might take a hit

That is not most of America and not what drives the dollars spent in our towns and cities. A house in the 65k to 150k hardly ever sits on the mark 45 days in my area. Those are working class to middle class homes. Anyone that doesn't think the tax cuts is not working for for lower and middle America...doesn't have a f'ing clue

Big city east or west coast...I cant speak about because housing in those areas dont compare to middle America

04-bow04-bow04-bow
02-11-2019 04:18 PM
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Post: #185
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
got this from a yahoo article

Quote:Kelli (who wanted her last name withheld), tweeted to the president: “First time ever owing on taxes! Static income, but take away the itemization and we got hit hard! @realDonaldTrump where’s the middle class benefits? Sadly disappointed here!”

She lives in Rialto, Calif., with her wife and says that she voted for President Trump in 2016. She normally receives a $2,500 refund, but this year, she had to pay $1,900. (The average refund between 2014 and 2018 was around $2,700.)

There’s “definitely an impact” she says, from the tax bill. “Our oldest is graduating; both are adults and are in college (one Bachelors, one Masters degree).”

Kelli says that her family will be “ok” — “until it’s time to do this again next year”, she says.

Quote:“I literally screamed when I saw my refund,” says Elissa Crooks. The 41-year-old from Orlando says that her refund was slashed by roughly $1,400 when she filed her 2018 taxes a few days ago.

She says that she relies on her refund to cover the property taxes on the house she bought four years ago. A Democrat whose voting history has included candidates from both parties, she says that she was “very upset” about her lower refund.

“I waited over the weekend to hit the send button because I thought something had to be missing,” she says. “I went over it with a fine-toothed comb. I didn’t know why it was so different.”

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump...06749.html


Can someone give me a example of how Trumps Tax changes affected these two cases?

From looking at both this is where I see the change.

1. probably claimed one or both sons on 2017 tax returns and now they are claiming their self. We are not talking about million dollar return...averaged $2500 on her returns up till 2018

2. is depending on tax returns to pay property tax. So we are not talking about a huge mortgage that she can no longer claim. She did not say if she has a child or married. The one thing we do know, single, HOH, or Married, she's getting a larger deduction than 2017.

So she either took home $27 extra dollars a week or she lost a Dependant and the HOH claim. How is this Trumps fault?

I personally think other factors...cant claim a child or Dependant, or a credit for tuition or other cost. Is the reason for the lower tax refund...

neither explained how it was Trumps fault .

Who believes either voted for him?
02-11-2019 06:17 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #186
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 06:17 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  got this from a yahoo article

Quote:Kelli (who wanted her last name withheld), tweeted to the president: “First time ever owing on taxes! Static income, but take away the itemization and we got hit hard! @realDonaldTrump where’s the middle class benefits? Sadly disappointed here!”

She lives in Rialto, Calif., with her wife and says that she voted for President Trump in 2016. She normally receives a $2,500 refund, but this year, she had to pay $1,900. (The average refund between 2014 and 2018 was around $2,700.)

There’s “definitely an impact” she says, from the tax bill. “Our oldest is graduating; both are adults and are in college (one Bachelors, one Masters degree).”

Kelli says that her family will be “ok” — “until it’s time to do this again next year”, she says.

Quote:“I literally screamed when I saw my refund,” says Elissa Crooks. The 41-year-old from Orlando says that her refund was slashed by roughly $1,400 when she filed her 2018 taxes a few days ago.

She says that she relies on her refund to cover the property taxes on the house she bought four years ago. A Democrat whose voting history has included candidates from both parties, she says that she was “very upset” about her lower refund.

“I waited over the weekend to hit the send button because I thought something had to be missing,” she says. “I went over it with a fine-toothed comb. I didn’t know why it was so different.”

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump...06749.html


Can someone give me a example of how Trumps Tax changes affected these two cases?

From looking at both this is where I see the change.

1. probably claimed one or both sons on 2017 tax returns and now they are claiming their self. We are not talking about million dollar return...averaged $2500 on her returns up till 2018

2. is depending on tax returns to pay property tax. So we are not talking about a huge mortgage that she can no longer claim. She did not say if she has a child or married. The one thing we do know, single, HOH, or Married, she's getting a larger deduction than 2017.

So she either took home $27 extra dollars a week or she lost a Dependant and the HOH claim. How is this Trumps fault?

I personally think other factors...cant claim a child or Dependant, or a credit for tuition or other cost. Is the reason for the lower tax refund...

neither explained how it was Trumps fault .

Who believes either voted for him?

guns, it's becoming old hat pointing out the obvious....

this is why the perimeter states are getting their arse handed to dem that bought in recently....

their revenue cycles are going to get creamed moving forward....

US revenues are up....

next worry....Tejas!

pay att'n to Tejas....
02-11-2019 06:26 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #187
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 06:17 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  got this from a yahoo article

Quote:Kelli (who wanted her last name withheld), tweeted to the president: “First time ever owing on taxes! Static income, but take away the itemization and we got hit hard! @realDonaldTrump where’s the middle class benefits? Sadly disappointed here!”

She lives in Rialto, Calif., with her wife and says that she voted for President Trump in 2016. She normally receives a $2,500 refund, but this year, she had to pay $1,900. (The average refund between 2014 and 2018 was around $2,700.)

There’s “definitely an impact” she says, from the tax bill. “Our oldest is graduating; both are adults and are in college (one Bachelors, one Masters degree).”

Kelli says that her family will be “ok” — “until it’s time to do this again next year”, she says.

Quote:“I literally screamed when I saw my refund,” says Elissa Crooks. The 41-year-old from Orlando says that her refund was slashed by roughly $1,400 when she filed her 2018 taxes a few days ago.

She says that she relies on her refund to cover the property taxes on the house she bought four years ago. A Democrat whose voting history has included candidates from both parties, she says that she was “very upset” about her lower refund.

“I waited over the weekend to hit the send button because I thought something had to be missing,” she says. “I went over it with a fine-toothed comb. I didn’t know why it was so different.”

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump...06749.html


Can someone give me a example of how Trumps Tax changes affected these two cases?

From looking at both this is where I see the change.

1. probably claimed one or both sons on 2017 tax returns and now they are claiming their self. We are not talking about million dollar return...averaged $2500 on her returns up till 2018

2. is depending on tax returns to pay property tax. So we are not talking about a huge mortgage that she can no longer claim. She did not say if she has a child or married. The one thing we do know, single, HOH, or Married, she's getting a larger deduction than 2017.

So she either took home $27 extra dollars a week or she lost a Dependant and the HOH claim. How is this Trumps fault?

I personally think other factors...cant claim a child or Dependant, or a credit for tuition or other cost. Is the reason for the lower tax refund...

neither explained how it was Trumps fault .

Who believes either voted for him?

Considering "Kelli" has a wife and Elissa admits to being a leftist I'd say chances are neither voted for Trump.
02-11-2019 06:29 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #188
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 06:17 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  got this from a yahoo article

Quote:Kelli (who wanted her last name withheld), tweeted to the president: “First time ever owing on taxes! Static income, but take away the itemization and we got hit hard! @realDonaldTrump where’s the middle class benefits? Sadly disappointed here!”

She lives in Rialto, Calif., with her wife and says that she voted for President Trump in 2016. She normally receives a $2,500 refund, but this year, she had to pay $1,900. (The average refund between 2014 and 2018 was around $2,700.)

There’s “definitely an impact” she says, from the tax bill. “Our oldest is graduating; both are adults and are in college (one Bachelors, one Masters degree).”

Kelli says that her family will be “ok” — “until it’s time to do this again next year”, she says.

Quote:“I literally screamed when I saw my refund,” says Elissa Crooks. The 41-year-old from Orlando says that her refund was slashed by roughly $1,400 when she filed her 2018 taxes a few days ago.

She says that she relies on her refund to cover the property taxes on the house she bought four years ago. A Democrat whose voting history has included candidates from both parties, she says that she was “very upset” about her lower refund.

“I waited over the weekend to hit the send button because I thought something had to be missing,” she says. “I went over it with a fine-toothed comb. I didn’t know why it was so different.”

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump...06749.html


Can someone give me a example of how Trumps Tax changes affected these two cases?

From looking at both this is where I see the change.

1. probably claimed one or both sons on 2017 tax returns and now they are claiming their self. We are not talking about million dollar return...averaged $2500 on her returns up till 2018

2. is depending on tax returns to pay property tax. So we are not talking about a huge mortgage that she can no longer claim. She did not say if she has a child or married. The one thing we do know, single, HOH, or Married, she's getting a larger deduction than 2017.

So she either took home $27 extra dollars a week or she lost a Dependant and the HOH claim. How is this Trumps fault?

I personally think other factors...cant claim a child or Dependant, or a credit for tuition or other cost. Is the reason for the lower tax refund...

neither explained how it was Trumps fault .

Who believes either voted for him?

Probably claimed they drove 70,000 miles for work on their schedule A, and they no longer get that itemization.

Also, they are talking about the amount of money they got, or didnt get, as a refund. They did not specify whether their actual taxes went up or down.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2019 06:30 PM by UofMstateU.)
02-11-2019 06:30 PM
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maximus Offline
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Post: #189
[news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
Getting bent like every year. Just a different lube.



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02-11-2019 08:49 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #190
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 08:49 PM)maximus Wrote:  Getting bent like every year. Just a different lube.



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how?
02-11-2019 08:51 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #191
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:27 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  So, you dont mean percent, but points.

In that case, if you had taxable income of $100K, your taxes dropped $1800.

And thats supposed to be crumbs?

I never said that...I just feel it wasn't all that significant when you break it down per pay period. And before you go there, I've never been opposed to tax cuts for the middle class...what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing.

How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2019 09:46 AM by Redwingtom.)
02-12-2019 09:45 AM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #192
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I never said that...I just feel it wasn't all that significant when you break it down per pay period. And before you go there, I've never been opposed to tax cuts for the middle class...what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing.

How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.

We will collect the same amount in taxes in 3 years under Trump, with the new tax cuts, than we did in 5 years under Obama. That is the reality of things. You can try to spin all you want, but the reality is that we get more tax revenue with tax cuts, as has always been the case.
02-12-2019 09:49 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #193
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 09:49 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.

We will collect the same amount in taxes in 3 years under Trump, with the new tax cuts, than we did in 5 years under Obama. That is the reality of things. You can try to spin all you want, but the reality is that we get more tax revenue with tax cuts, as has always been the case.

That's just complete nonsense...and it's akin to saying a smaller refund alone is due to the tax cut. There is NO evidence for what you're stating. If so, you'd provide it. There has never been anything shown EVER to say that tax cuts alone create more revenue. And certainly not always as you claim.

We're taking in more because of improvements to the economy, and there is no evidence (at least not yet) that this is a direct result of the corporate cut. When there is, present it, and I'll gladly agree with you...but just in this case as past tax cuts alone have never been shown to have increased tax revenues.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2019 11:48 AM by Redwingtom.)
02-12-2019 11:47 AM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #194
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I never said that...I just feel it wasn't all that significant when you break it down per pay period. And before you go there, I've never been opposed to tax cuts for the middle class...what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing.

How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.

Where does tax revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like us.

Meaning, people actually have jobs.

Record employment across the board.

Inadvertantly... Oops.
02-12-2019 11:51 AM
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MonarchManiac Offline
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Post: #195
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:45 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 02:35 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I never said that...I just feel it wasn't all that significant when you break it down per pay period. And before you go there, I've never been opposed to tax cuts for the middle class...what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing.

How does corporate spending have anything to do with the deficit? We have record tax revenues....

We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.

But again - the deficit is not growing due to revenue problems - whether it comes from individuals or corporations. We dont have a problem on that side of the ledger. It's the other side. You see here that even with a tax cut to individuals and corporations we still are bringing in record numbers. So if the deficit is still growing, we are spending too much.
02-12-2019 12:02 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #196
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 11:47 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:49 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:58 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  We don't have record tax revenues (if we do, please source) due to the corporate cut. The GOP plan (lie) is that tax cuts will produce more revenue than would have come in without the cut. Since this does not actually happen...and never has...and spending doesn't wane, deficits grow.

Since the corporations are not using their tax savings to increase wages nor increasing investments in PP&E enough to spur the economy, but rather for stock buy backs and just plain old hording cash, revenues will not increase enough to start reducing the deficit. It's really quite simple.
Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.

We will collect the same amount in taxes in 3 years under Trump, with the new tax cuts, than we did in 5 years under Obama. That is the reality of things. You can try to spin all you want, but the reality is that we get more tax revenue with tax cuts, as has always been the case.

That's just complete nonsense...and it's akin to saying a smaller refund alone is due to the tax cut. There is NO evidence for what you're stating. If so, you'd provide it. There has never been anything shown EVER to say that tax cuts alone create more revenue. And certainly not always as you claim.

We're taking in more because of improvements to the economy, and there is no evidence (at least not yet) that this is a direct result of the corporate cut. When there is, present it, and I'll gladly agree with you...but just in this case as past tax cuts alone have never been shown to have increased tax revenues.

Just to be sure, you know you just confirmed that:

A) Trumps economy is kicking Obama's economy in the ass.
B) Even with the tax cuts, we are taking in more money.

Thats reality. You can try to spin it off on hypotheticals, but its reality.
02-12-2019 12:12 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #197
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 12:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 11:47 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:49 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 04:11 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  Record Tax Revenues

Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

Quote:So where does the federal government's revenue come from? Individual taxpayers like you provide most of it. Income taxes contribute $1.688 trillion, half of the total. Another third, $1.238 trillion, comes from your payroll taxes. This includes $905 billion for Social Security, $275 billion for Medicare, and $47 billion for unemployment insurance.

Corporate taxes add $225 billion, only 7 percent. Trump's tax plan cut taxes for corporations much more than it did for individuals. In 2017, corporations paid 9 percent and income taxpayers paid 48 percent.

We will collect the same amount in taxes in 3 years under Trump, with the new tax cuts, than we did in 5 years under Obama. That is the reality of things. You can try to spin all you want, but the reality is that we get more tax revenue with tax cuts, as has always been the case.

That's just complete nonsense...and it's akin to saying a smaller refund alone is due to the tax cut. There is NO evidence for what you're stating. If so, you'd provide it. There has never been anything shown EVER to say that tax cuts alone create more revenue. And certainly not always as you claim.

We're taking in more because of improvements to the economy, and there is no evidence (at least not yet) that this is a direct result of the corporate cut. When there is, present it, and I'll gladly agree with you...but just in this case as past tax cuts alone have never been shown to have increased tax revenues.

Just to be sure, you know you just confirmed that:

A) Trumps economy is kicking Obama's economy in the ass.
B) Even with the tax cuts, we are taking in more money.

Thats reality. You can try to spin it off on hypotheticals, but its reality.

But A and B do not make C (Tax cuts create more revenue) true! And you're wildly over exaggerating A. The economy under trump has continued to improve at nearly the same level as it was under Obama for years. And there's no proof yet that the tax cuts have anything thing to do with it.

And it's not a hypothetical. There is still no proof that cutting taxes alone increases revenue. NONE!
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2019 01:49 PM by Redwingtom.)
02-12-2019 01:48 PM
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MonarchManiac Offline
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Post: #198
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 01:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 12:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 11:47 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:49 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:45 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Thanks...but you just proved...maybe inadvertently, that the record tax revenues are not due to trump's corporate tax cut. Oops.

We will collect the same amount in taxes in 3 years under Trump, with the new tax cuts, than we did in 5 years under Obama. That is the reality of things. You can try to spin all you want, but the reality is that we get more tax revenue with tax cuts, as has always been the case.

That's just complete nonsense...and it's akin to saying a smaller refund alone is due to the tax cut. There is NO evidence for what you're stating. If so, you'd provide it. There has never been anything shown EVER to say that tax cuts alone create more revenue. And certainly not always as you claim.

We're taking in more because of improvements to the economy, and there is no evidence (at least not yet) that this is a direct result of the corporate cut. When there is, present it, and I'll gladly agree with you...but just in this case as past tax cuts alone have never been shown to have increased tax revenues.

Just to be sure, you know you just confirmed that:

A) Trumps economy is kicking Obama's economy in the ass.
B) Even with the tax cuts, we are taking in more money.

Thats reality. You can try to spin it off on hypotheticals, but its reality.

But A and B do not make C (Tax cuts create more revenue) true! And you're wildly over exaggerating A. The economy under trump has continued to improve at nearly the same level as it was under Obama for years. And there's no proof yet that the tax cuts have anything thing to do with it.

And it's not a hypothetical. There is still no proof that cutting taxes alone increases revenue. NONE!

Correlation may not equal causation here - can't really be sure, but there is also no evidence for your original assertation:

"what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing."

You cannot say that the corporate tax reduction is the cause for our growing deficit. It simply is not true. And that is the point we were arguing with you.
02-12-2019 03:56 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #199
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
I find it funny that someone (who didn't vote for Trump) feels 'betrayed' because those who took money out of their home equity to invest in the market no longer get to not only deduct the interest they were paying on the borrowed money, but ALSO generally benefit from things like claiming capital gains and the lower rate there rather than regular income.... but of course, most all democrats have said that investing retirement money in the stock market is too risky... I can't keep up with the hypocritical spin.

This is PRECISELY the sort of 'loophole for the wealthy' that every Democrat who ran (or has announced will run again) has promised to close... Yes, it impacts a few in the middle class, but it is far more directed towards higher earners.

and yes, as long as you're below some relatively large thresholds, you can still choose to refinance instead and take out equity (just not as a line of credit) and claim the deduction.

So someone who is engaging in a relatively sophisticated arbitrage is upset that in order to keep the wealthy from getting even wealthier, they have to jump through an additional hoop.

Ridiculous.
02-12-2019 04:24 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #200
RE: [news]Middle class feeling betrayed by Trump when filing taxes
(02-12-2019 03:56 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 01:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 12:12 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 11:47 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 09:49 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  We will collect the same amount in taxes in 3 years under Trump, with the new tax cuts, than we did in 5 years under Obama. That is the reality of things. You can try to spin all you want, but the reality is that we get more tax revenue with tax cuts, as has always been the case.

That's just complete nonsense...and it's akin to saying a smaller refund alone is due to the tax cut. There is NO evidence for what you're stating. If so, you'd provide it. There has never been anything shown EVER to say that tax cuts alone create more revenue. And certainly not always as you claim.

We're taking in more because of improvements to the economy, and there is no evidence (at least not yet) that this is a direct result of the corporate cut. When there is, present it, and I'll gladly agree with you...but just in this case as past tax cuts alone have never been shown to have increased tax revenues.

Just to be sure, you know you just confirmed that:

A) Trumps economy is kicking Obama's economy in the ass.
B) Even with the tax cuts, we are taking in more money.

Thats reality. You can try to spin it off on hypotheticals, but its reality.

But A and B do not make C (Tax cuts create more revenue) true! And you're wildly over exaggerating A. The economy under trump has continued to improve at nearly the same level as it was under Obama for years. And there's no proof yet that the tax cuts have anything thing to do with it.

And it's not a hypothetical. There is still no proof that cutting taxes alone increases revenue. NONE!

Correlation may not equal causation here - can't really be sure, but there is also no evidence for your original assertation:

"what I was opposed to was the huge corporate tax, which as we've seen so far has only lined the corporations pockets...they're not investing, hiring or raising pay as much as the GOP had hoped...and that's why the deficit keeps growing and growing and growing."

You cannot say that the corporate tax reduction is the cause for our growing deficit. It simply is not true. And that is the point we were arguing with you.

I didn't really say that...but whatever.
02-12-2019 04:25 PM
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