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(Opinion) Roth IRA's
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #1
(Opinion) Roth IRA's
I think taxes are going to go up. Just my feeling. Nothing other than a gut feeling. I didn't think we can sustain trillion dollar yearly deficits. So I moved the max out I could into a Roth. I think it's a smart play because the growth will be all tax free. I know we have some day traders on here. I won't have the ability to trade out of the margin until I reach 25,000 but I think I can make up the difference with it being tax free at take out. Just thought I'd share the idea. Some of you might want to look at it. The money I took out will be taxed at today's rates and it's growth will be untaxed. That's a winner winner chicken dinner in my book. If you aren't maxing out a ROTH IRA you should look into it.
02-04-2019 09:22 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #2
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
That's a great idea if you think taxes are going up.

For those who don't know, the value of a Roth is identical to the value of a non-Roth if the tax rate is the same on both ends. Doing your IRA (or 401k) as a Roth is betting that your marginal tax rate is lower today, and doing it as a non-Roth is betting that your tax rate will be lower when you take it out.

If you're in your high earning years (mid-30s through late 50s for most of us), you might still be better off in a regular IRA even if taxes go up. You usually are in a lower tax bracket after retirement, so even if overall taxes are higher it's likely that your taxes will still be lower.
02-04-2019 09:34 AM
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BuffaloTN Offline
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Post: #3
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
I thought you were an oil barron now Mach? What happened with that?
02-04-2019 10:28 AM
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Claw Offline
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RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
How easily we surrender control of our money to the government.
02-04-2019 10:29 AM
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BuffaloTN Offline
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RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
Nothing wrong with a ROTH, but I think the best investment for the avg Joe is to get rental property.
02-04-2019 10:50 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #6
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 10:28 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  I thought you were an oil barron now Mach? What happened with that?

It occupies my mind every day.......

It's not mine though. It's the in-laws..............

Nothing disbursed yet. Still tied up in avadavits to make sure no one else can go back on the claim. 4 generations and every single one dies in intestate.

The skeptical side of me thinks they are dragging it out beacuse the company can do a hell of a lot better than standard interest so they are making money hand over fist by delaying. My family (in-laws) get 2% of a 15% royalty. The original will on the 58 acres calls for a 3/4 mineral right.

So much is in the air with it but it consumes me. Just one well did 5.8 billion ccf's of natural gas last year in 6 months. The property has 3 wells on it. I don't know when the company sold the gas and natural gas has fluctuations. Depending on when they sold it. My numbers are between 800,000 and 300,000 a year for the foreseable future. It also depends on if the gas is sold into a pipeline or trucked.

I'm telling you....... it consumes my thoughts. It's like a lottery ticket but it's the in laws. So none of it's mine but I'm the one who has done all of the research for them and went through the how to's. Did all of the research with the West Virginia Dept of natural resources too.
02-04-2019 11:06 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #7
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
The way it was explained to me with my move to a new company is keep the 401k and pay into while you’re in a high tax bracket and then when your taxes are lower withdraw. I’m also looking at the IRA so I can take advantage of both.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2019 11:31 AM by gdunn.)
02-04-2019 11:10 AM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #8
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
Just wait until the dems make the argument that capital gains growing tax free is immoral, and you aren't paying your fair share.

It's coming.
02-04-2019 11:48 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #9
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 10:50 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  Nothing wrong with a ROTH, but I think the best investment for the avg Joe is to get rental property.

If you have direct oversight so that you stay on top of whether the property is maintained then I agree. Trusting third parties for oversight is both costly and risky.

As to Mach's question over Roths, they have worked well for me, but particularly beneficial was the Roth for Precious Metals. Over the time span in which I participated my invested amount almost tripled. Of course it's riskier and purely market dependent, but as with all commodities there are more people every day and finite supply of commodities. And with global dependence upon governmental debt I'd still say it was a reasonably safe bet.

A good hedge Mach is to place 25% of your revenue into precious metals. When stocks get hammered usually the metal market doubles or more. In 2006-8 when most of my buddies lost 40% of their portfolio, I lost between 5 to 6%. The difference was the metal. If metals decline it is because the economy is strong. And a strong stock market almost always makes up for the decline in the metals. Commodities and Stocks are the yin and yang of investing and metals are the most durable of commodities.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2019 02:26 PM by JRsec.)
02-04-2019 02:21 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #10
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 11:06 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 10:28 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  I thought you were an oil barron now Mach? What happened with that?

It occupies my mind every day.......

It's not mine though. It's the in-laws..............

Nothing disbursed yet. Still tied up in avadavits to make sure no one else can go back on the claim. 4 generations and every single one dies in intestate.

The skeptical side of me thinks they are dragging it out beacuse the company can do a hell of a lot better than standard interest so they are making money hand over fist by delaying. My family (in-laws) get 2% of a 15% royalty. The original will on the 58 acres calls for a 3/4 mineral right.

So much is in the air with it but it consumes me. Just one well did 5.8 billion ccf's of natural gas last year in 6 months. The property has 3 wells on it. I don't know when the company sold the gas and natural gas has fluctuations. Depending on when they sold it. My numbers are between 800,000 and 300,000 a year for the foreseable future. It also depends on if the gas is sold into a pipeline or trucked.

I'm telling you....... it consumes my thoughts. It's like a lottery ticket but it's the in laws. So none of it's mine but I'm the one who has done all of the research for them and went through the how to's. Did all of the research with the West Virginia Dept of natural resources too.

Someone wrote a song about you:

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02-04-2019 02:22 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #11
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 02:21 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 10:50 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  Nothing wrong with a ROTH, but I think the best investment for the avg Joe is to get rental property.

If you have direct oversight so that you stay on top of whether the property is maintained then I agree. Trusting third parties for oversight is both costly and risky.

As to Mach's question over Roths, they have worked well for me, but particularly beneficial was the Roth for Precious Metals. Over the time span in which I participated my invested amount almost tripled. Of course it's riskier and purely market dependent, but as with all commodities there are more people every day and finite supply of commodities. And with global dependence upon governmental debt I'd still say it was a reasonably safe bet.

I agree about rentals. Good 3rd party managers are expensive, and bad ones are even more costly.

But if you manage it yourself, then you're earning money on labor, not on capital.

If you have extra time, a rental property is great. If you've got a busy career and kids then it's a pain in the rear. My brother sold his rental a few months before his first kid was born because it was no longer worth his time to manage it.

At some point, extra free time is worth more to me than working more hours just to get a few extra bucks.
02-04-2019 02:28 PM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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Post: #12
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 09:22 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think taxes are going to go up. Just my feeling. Nothing other than a gut feeling. I didn't think we can sustain trillion dollar yearly deficits. So I moved the max out I could into a Roth. I think it's a smart play because the growth will be all tax free. I know we have some day traders on here. I won't have the ability to trade out of the margin until I reach 25,000 but I think I can make up the difference with it being tax free at take out. Just thought I'd share the idea. Some of you might want to look at it. The money I took out will be taxed at today's rates and it's growth will be untaxed. That's a winner winner chicken dinner in my book. If you aren't maxing out a ROTH IRA you should look into it.

That was my thinking exactly. I've been putting everything in ROTH's for the last 10 years and plan on converting most of my other 401's to ROTH's in the next few years.

With our inability to quit spending, taxes will have to go up along with spending cuts.

Also knowing how the government mind works, I'm sure that in a matter of years, they'll decide that anyone who was able to "save" and "put away" for retirement MUST be "rich" and therefore should pay more taxes.


Sorry, I've already paid mine, thanks.....
02-04-2019 03:26 PM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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Post: #13
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 02:28 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 02:21 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 10:50 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  Nothing wrong with a ROTH, but I think the best investment for the avg Joe is to get rental property.

If you have direct oversight so that you stay on top of whether the property is maintained then I agree. Trusting third parties for oversight is both costly and risky.

As to Mach's question over Roths, they have worked well for me, but particularly beneficial was the Roth for Precious Metals. Over the time span in which I participated my invested amount almost tripled. Of course it's riskier and purely market dependent, but as with all commodities there are more people every day and finite supply of commodities. And with global dependence upon governmental debt I'd still say it was a reasonably safe bet.

I agree about rentals. Good 3rd party managers are expensive, and bad ones are even more costly.

But if you manage it yourself, then you're earning money on labor, not on capital.

If you have extra time, a rental property is great. If you've got a busy career and kids then it's a pain in the rear. My brother sold his rental a few months before his first kid was born because it was no longer worth his time to manage it.

At some point, extra free time is worth more to me than working more hours just to get a few extra bucks.

If I were in the market for property, I'd be looking at buying farm land.

Lower tax rate, little to no maintenance & upkeep. In fact, if you can find the right farmer, you can work that into the lease agreement.

You won't get rich, but as long as we need to eat, there will be a need for farmland.
02-04-2019 03:30 PM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #14
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 03:26 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 09:22 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think taxes are going to go up. Just my feeling. Nothing other than a gut feeling. I didn't think we can sustain trillion dollar yearly deficits. So I moved the max out I could into a Roth. I think it's a smart play because the growth will be all tax free. I know we have some day traders on here. I won't have the ability to trade out of the margin until I reach 25,000 but I think I can make up the difference with it being tax free at take out. Just thought I'd share the idea. Some of you might want to look at it. The money I took out will be taxed at today's rates and it's growth will be untaxed. That's a winner winner chicken dinner in my book. If you aren't maxing out a ROTH IRA you should look into it.

That was my thinking exactly. I've been putting everything in ROTH's for the last 10 years and plan on converting most of my other 401's to ROTH's in the next few years.

With our inability to quit spending, taxes will have to go up along with spending cuts.

Also knowing how the government mind works, I'm sure that in a matter of years, they'll decide that anyone who was able to "save" and "put away" for retirement MUST be "rich" and therefore should pay more taxes.


Sorry, I've already paid mine, thanks.....

Yeah, it won't work that way. If the left makes the argument that capital gains growing tax free is immoral and you aren't paying your fair share, the rules can be dismantled just as easily as they were put in place.

They have ~$100 trillion in programs they need funded, my man. Scrapping rules for Roth IRAs so they can get their hands on that money will be child's play.

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2019 03:55 PM by Kronke.)
02-04-2019 03:53 PM
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UofMTigerTim Offline
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Post: #15
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
Confiscating retirement accounts have been floated in the past.

I think when the crap hits the fan with the debt (and it will) nothing will be off limits.
02-04-2019 04:02 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #16
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 03:53 PM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 03:26 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 09:22 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think taxes are going to go up. Just my feeling. Nothing other than a gut feeling. I didn't think we can sustain trillion dollar yearly deficits. So I moved the max out I could into a Roth. I think it's a smart play because the growth will be all tax free. I know we have some day traders on here. I won't have the ability to trade out of the margin until I reach 25,000 but I think I can make up the difference with it being tax free at take out. Just thought I'd share the idea. Some of you might want to look at it. The money I took out will be taxed at today's rates and it's growth will be untaxed. That's a winner winner chicken dinner in my book. If you aren't maxing out a ROTH IRA you should look into it.

That was my thinking exactly. I've been putting everything in ROTH's for the last 10 years and plan on converting most of my other 401's to ROTH's in the next few years.

With our inability to quit spending, taxes will have to go up along with spending cuts.

Also knowing how the government mind works, I'm sure that in a matter of years, they'll decide that anyone who was able to "save" and "put away" for retirement MUST be "rich" and therefore should pay more taxes.


Sorry, I've already paid mine, thanks.....

Yeah, it won't work that way. If the left makes the argument that capital gains growing tax free is immoral and you aren't paying your fair share, the rules can be dismantled just as they were put in place.

They have ~$100 trillion in programs they need funded. Scrapping rules for Roth IRAs so they can get their hands on that money will be child's play.

07-coffee3

To use Badger's idiom you can bet the farm on that. Under Obama's first administration Cas Sunstein was working on a plan to ameliorate your 401K with SSI payments. The net effect would be that everyone would have essentially pulled down the same amount between SSI and your IRA. If your IRA paid more it would lessen or negate your SSI.

So if you want to know where the left wants to get more money for their giveaway programs to buy votes, there is one of their solutions that hasn't been implemented yet. Obama put that on the back burner until he got his AFA passed. The Affordable Care Act was going to be the left jab to the citizen's jaw and the SSI reform that reduced it by the payout of your 401K or 403B was going to be the right hook to finish you off so his new fascist state could be formed. Why fascist? Because business, not government per se, would control the wealth, as the government socialized the middle class to the lower class to create a permanent underbelly of wage earners and to cement the corporate class in place. That is the essence of a fascist government. Hitler would not have existed if it were not for Willie Messerschmitt & Daimler Benz & Heinkel and some of the German banks. The only difference would have been that Obama moved to that form of socialism (and fascism is socialistic) off of the backs of the middle class while Hitler did it by victimizing the Jews and seizing their assets.

In a move to fascism you need a group with wealth to exploit. Those will be your victims. The uber wealthy will be the funding of the putsch, those being robbed the victim, and the working class will be glorified to appeal to their pride even though their plight will not effectively be that much better. The rich get richer and they use that keep power.
02-04-2019 04:05 PM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #17
(Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 04:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 03:53 PM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 03:26 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 09:22 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think taxes are going to go up. Just my feeling. Nothing other than a gut feeling. I didn't think we can sustain trillion dollar yearly deficits. So I moved the max out I could into a Roth. I think it's a smart play because the growth will be all tax free. I know we have some day traders on here. I won't have the ability to trade out of the margin until I reach 25,000 but I think I can make up the difference with it being tax free at take out. Just thought I'd share the idea. Some of you might want to look at it. The money I took out will be taxed at today's rates and it's growth will be untaxed. That's a winner winner chicken dinner in my book. If you aren't maxing out a ROTH IRA you should look into it.

That was my thinking exactly. I've been putting everything in ROTH's for the last 10 years and plan on converting most of my other 401's to ROTH's in the next few years.

With our inability to quit spending, taxes will have to go up along with spending cuts.

Also knowing how the government mind works, I'm sure that in a matter of years, they'll decide that anyone who was able to "save" and "put away" for retirement MUST be "rich" and therefore should pay more taxes.


Sorry, I've already paid mine, thanks.....

Yeah, it won't work that way. If the left makes the argument that capital gains growing tax free is immoral and you aren't paying your fair share, the rules can be dismantled just as they were put in place.

They have ~$100 trillion in programs they need funded. Scrapping rules for Roth IRAs so they can get their hands on that money will be child's play.

07-coffee3

To use Badger's idiom you can bet the farm on that. Under Obama's first administration Cas Sunstein was working on a plan to ameliorate your 401K with SSI payments. The net effect would be that everyone would have essentially pulled down the same amount between SSI and your IRA. If your IRA paid more it would lessen or negate your SSI.

So if you want to know where the left wants to get more money for their giveaway programs to buy votes, there is one of their solutions that hasn't been implemented yet. Obama put that on the back burner until he got his AFA passed. The Affordable Care Act was going to be the left jab to the citizen's jaw and the SSI reform that reduced it by the payout of your 401K or 403B was going to be the right hook to finish you off so his new fascist state could be formed. Why fascist? Because business, not government per se, would control the wealth, as the government socialized the middle class to the lower class to create a permanent underbelly of wage earners and to cement the corporate class in place. That is the essence of a fascist government. Hitler would not have existed if it were not for Willie Messerschmitt & Daimler Benz & Heinkel and some of the German banks. The only difference would have been that Obama moved to that form of socialism (and fascism is socialistic) off of the backs of the middle class while Hitler did it by victimizing the Jews and seizing their assets.

In a move to fascism you need a group with wealth to exploit. Those will be your victims. The uber wealthy will be the funding of the putsch, those being robbed the victim, and the working class will be glorified to appeal to their pride even though their plight will not effectively be that much better. The rich get richer and they use that keep power.

Precisely. I started a Roth a few years ago, but have slowed putting money into it, because I have that same concern, that I will be punished for saving and my social security will be given to someone else who didn't save to make it "fair".

I'd rather just keep it in a brokerage account, and pay taxes on the dividends. At least after that, I know those assets are mine.

Betting on a benefit that may or (infinitely more likely) may not be in the tax code 40 years from now is a fool's errand, in my opinion.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2019 05:09 PM by Kronke.)
02-04-2019 04:16 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #18
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 10:28 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  I thought you were an oil barron now Mach? What happened with that?

He's the Juul Ghoul. Profiting off teenagers getting popcorn lung.
02-04-2019 04:52 PM
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Post: #19
RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 03:30 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 02:28 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 02:21 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 10:50 AM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  Nothing wrong with a ROTH, but I think the best investment for the avg Joe is to get rental property.

If you have direct oversight so that you stay on top of whether the property is maintained then I agree. Trusting third parties for oversight is both costly and risky.

As to Mach's question over Roths, they have worked well for me, but particularly beneficial was the Roth for Precious Metals. Over the time span in which I participated my invested amount almost tripled. Of course it's riskier and purely market dependent, but as with all commodities there are more people every day and finite supply of commodities. And with global dependence upon governmental debt I'd still say it was a reasonably safe bet.

I agree about rentals. Good 3rd party managers are expensive, and bad ones are even more costly.

But if you manage it yourself, then you're earning money on labor, not on capital.

If you have extra time, a rental property is great. If you've got a busy career and kids then it's a pain in the rear. My brother sold his rental a few months before his first kid was born because it was no longer worth his time to manage it.

At some point, extra free time is worth more to me than working more hours just to get a few extra bucks.

If I were in the market for property, I'd be looking at buying farm land.

Lower tax rate, little to no maintenance & upkeep. In fact, if you can find the right farmer, you can work that into the lease agreement.

You won't get rich, but as long as we need to eat, there will be a need for farmland.

Problem is that farmland is WAY overpriced right now. Has been for at least a decade.

Land rent is about $250 per acre for good land. But land prices are 7,000-10,000 even for bad land. I've seen good farmland sold as high as $13,000/acre in the past few years.
02-04-2019 04:54 PM
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RE: (Opinion) Roth IRA's
(02-04-2019 04:16 PM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 04:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 03:53 PM)Kronke Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 03:26 PM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  
(02-04-2019 09:22 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think taxes are going to go up. Just my feeling. Nothing other than a gut feeling. I didn't think we can sustain trillion dollar yearly deficits. So I moved the max out I could into a Roth. I think it's a smart play because the growth will be all tax free. I know we have some day traders on here. I won't have the ability to trade out of the margin until I reach 25,000 but I think I can make up the difference with it being tax free at take out. Just thought I'd share the idea. Some of you might want to look at it. The money I took out will be taxed at today's rates and it's growth will be untaxed. That's a winner winner chicken dinner in my book. If you aren't maxing out a ROTH IRA you should look into it.

That was my thinking exactly. I've been putting everything in ROTH's for the last 10 years and plan on converting most of my other 401's to ROTH's in the next few years.

With our inability to quit spending, taxes will have to go up along with spending cuts.

Also knowing how the government mind works, I'm sure that in a matter of years, they'll decide that anyone who was able to "save" and "put away" for retirement MUST be "rich" and therefore should pay more taxes.


Sorry, I've already paid mine, thanks.....

Yeah, it won't work that way. If the left makes the argument that capital gains growing tax free is immoral and you aren't paying your fair share, the rules can be dismantled just as they were put in place.

They have ~$100 trillion in programs they need funded. Scrapping rules for Roth IRAs so they can get their hands on that money will be child's play.

07-coffee3

To use Badger's idiom you can bet the farm on that. Under Obama's first administration Cas Sunstein was working on a plan to ameliorate your 401K with SSI payments. The net effect would be that everyone would have essentially pulled down the same amount between SSI and your IRA. If your IRA paid more it would lessen or negate your SSI.

So if you want to know where the left wants to get more money for their giveaway programs to buy votes, there is one of their solutions that hasn't been implemented yet. Obama put that on the back burner until he got his AFA passed. The Affordable Care Act was going to be the left jab to the citizen's jaw and the SSI reform that reduced it by the payout of your 401K or 403B was going to be the right hook to finish you off so his new fascist state could be formed. Why fascist? Because business, not government per se, would control the wealth, as the government socialized the middle class to the lower class to create a permanent underbelly of wage earners and to cement the corporate class in place. That is the essence of a fascist government. Hitler would not have existed if it were not for Willie Messerschmitt & Daimler Benz & Heinkel and some of the German banks. The only difference would have been that Obama moved to that form of socialism (and fascism is socialistic) off of the backs of the middle class while Hitler did it by victimizing the Jews and seizing their assets.

In a move to fascism you need a group with wealth to exploit. Those will be your victims. The uber wealthy will be the funding of the putsch, those being robbed the victim, and the working class will be glorified to appeal to their pride even though their plight will not effectively be that much better. The rich get richer and they use that keep power.

Precisely. I started a Roth a few years ago, but have slowed putting money into it, because I have that same concern, that I will be punished for saving and my social security will be given to someone else who didn't save to make it "fair".

I'd rather just keep it in a brokerage account, and pay taxes on the dividends. At these after that, I know those assets are mine.

Betting on a benefit that may or (infinitely more likely) may not be in the tax code 40 years from now is a fool's errand, in my opinion.

Nah, I wouldn't worry about that. They might cut off new ira/401k investments, but they've always taken extra care to ensure that average investors don't get screwed for past decisions.

They might end up going after the billionaires. But I don't think this country will ever go after the Kulaks like the USSR did.
02-04-2019 04:59 PM
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