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Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
The Eastern Athletic Association (nicknamed the Eastern 8, originally the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, and later the Atlantic 10) started out as a non-football circuit in the late '70s with Duquesne, George Washington, Massachusetts, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Villanova, and West Virginia. Would it have been plausible to add I-A football around that time? Half the teams were already I-A independents, and they could have added BC and Syracuse as FB-only affiliates. Presumably, when the Big East formed shortly afterward, Villanova would still have left, and perhaps Temple is tapped as a replacement. Pittsburgh is less inclined to leave for the BE due to the FB commitment in the EAA. Penn State doesn't even apply for the BE, as their needs are met with the EAA. Tack on another FB affiliate (VT, Miami, FSU...), and you've got 8 football schools and 8 basketball schools.

Within 10-15 years, maybe you get something like this on the east coast:

EAA (10 FB, 12 BB)
Full: Florida State, Miami-FL, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
NFB: Duquesne, George Washington, Massachusetts, Notre Dame
FBO: Boston College, Syracuse

Big East (0 FB, 8 BB)
NFB: Boston College, Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Syracuse, Villanova

ACC (8 FB, 8 BB)
Full: Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest

Eventually, perhaps it's the ACC that gets eaten rather than doing the eating.

What do you think?
01-30-2019 09:36 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-30-2019 09:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  The Eastern Athletic Association (nicknamed the Eastern 8, originally the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, and later the Atlantic 10) started out as a non-football circuit in the late '70s with Duquesne, George Washington, Massachusetts, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Villanova, and West Virginia. Would it have been plausible to add I-A football around that time? Half the teams were already I-A independents, and they could have added BC and Syracuse as FB-only affiliates. Presumably, when the Big East formed shortly afterward, Villanova would still have left, and perhaps Temple is tapped as a replacement. Pittsburgh is less inclined to leave for the BE due to the FB commitment in the EAA. Penn State doesn't even apply for the BE, as their needs are met with the EAA. Tack on another FB affiliate (VT, Miami, FSU...), and you've got 8 football schools and 8 basketball schools.

Within 10-15 years, maybe you get something like this on the east coast:

EAA (10 FB, 12 BB)
Full: Florida State, Miami-FL, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
NFB: Duquesne, George Washington, Massachusetts, Notre Dame
FBO: Boston College, Syracuse

Big East (0 FB, 8 BB)
NFB: Boston College, Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Syracuse, Villanova

ACC (8 FB, 8 BB)
Full: Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest

Eventually, perhaps it's the ACC that gets eaten rather than doing the eating.

What do you think?

Florida State and Miami would have joined the ACC when they came calling IMO
01-30-2019 10:38 PM
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CarlSmithCenter Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-30-2019 10:38 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(01-30-2019 09:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  The Eastern Athletic Association (nicknamed the Eastern 8, originally the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League, and later the Atlantic 10) started out as a non-football circuit in the late '70s with Duquesne, George Washington, Massachusetts, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Villanova, and West Virginia. Would it have been plausible to add I-A football around that time? Half the teams were already I-A independents, and they could have added BC and Syracuse as FB-only affiliates. Presumably, when the Big East formed shortly afterward, Villanova would still have left, and perhaps Temple is tapped as a replacement. Pittsburgh is less inclined to leave for the BE due to the FB commitment in the EAA. Penn State doesn't even apply for the BE, as their needs are met with the EAA. Tack on another FB affiliate (VT, Miami, FSU...), and you've got 8 football schools and 8 basketball schools.

Within 10-15 years, maybe you get something like this on the east coast:

EAA (10 FB, 12 BB)
Full: Florida State, Miami-FL, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Temple, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
NFB: Duquesne, George Washington, Massachusetts, Notre Dame
FBO: Boston College, Syracuse

Big East (0 FB, 8 BB)
NFB: Boston College, Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Syracuse, Villanova

ACC (8 FB, 8 BB)
Full: Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, Maryland, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest

Eventually, perhaps it's the ACC that gets eaten rather than doing the eating.

What do you think?

Florida State and Miami would have joined the ACC when they came calling IMO

Penn State would’ve still gone to the B1G, and BC, Pitt, Cuse and VPI all would’ve joined the ACC anyway.

I also don’t see the Big East doubling up in DC with GW, but they might have added Dusquene, Temple, UMass, WVU, Rutgers and Notre Dame as full, non-basketball playing members.

WVU, Temple, UMass, UConn and Rutgers could then have been football affiliates of a Metro/CUSA or MAC type league.
01-30-2019 11:59 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
In short, no. Penn State was dead set against anything except all-sports. The reason they wanted in the Big East was to settle their olympic sports home, and Paterno thought it was a way to start a football conference through membership. Syracuse always favored a football-only conference due to their membership in the Big East.

The only ways there could have been a major northeast football conference:

• The Big East accepted Penn State. This would have led to some sort of Big East football with Penn State.

• An eastern all-sports conference formed including Syracuse. This was sometimes called the Eastern Seaboard Conference when it included some powerful Southern Independents.

The northeast was in turmoil in the late 80's with Penn State and Syracuse's coaches and AD's at each other's throats because of animosity that had grown over the years. That is what gave the Big Ten the idea to invite the northeast's land-grant, football crazy, crown jewel, Penn State. The northeast was vulnerable and the midwest struck.

From an article in 1989 (Tarman is the PSU AD):

Syracuse athletic director Jake Crouthamel sees this latest round of talks as an opportunity to finally shine the spotlight on the Eastern independents, give them a unified voice on the national football scene and tap into the region's lucrative television markets.
``To join together as a group of Eastern independents, we can accomplish something no one else has ever accomplished in the Northeast, and that's to unify football,'' said Crouthamel. ``We don't get together in anything but officiating. If we get started in a football-only arrangement, then it wouldn't be long before we'd be involved in an all-sports conference.''
If that sounds vaguely like an overture of compromise to Penn State, the Nittany Lions aren't biting.
``Penn State is not going to take that chance,'' said Tarman. ``It's got to be all from the start for us to have any interest.''
Crouthamel and Tarman accused each other of thwarting negotiations when conference talks last broke off in the early part of this decade. At that point, Penn State led the schools to the negotiating table only to see discussions fall apart when Pittsburgh bolted to join the fledgling Big East Conference. Syracuse and Boston College then decided they would remain members of the Big East, ending all thoughts of an all-sports conference for the Eastern independents.
It was that experience that lit the flames of bitter feelings that have now engulfed the two schools.
Tarman said Penn State tried to get a conference going eight years ago, but came out looking like ``the heavies'' when that idea fell through.
``Some said it would have happened if Penn State would have been willing to share its football revenues,'' said Tarman. ``But we were always willing to do that as long as we got something in return. We had a revenue-sharing formula we were ready to take to the presidents and vice-presidents. We had a tie to a major New Year's Day bowl. Then Pitt joined the Big East. Syracuse and Boston College decided to stay, and that torpedoed the idea.
``In our opinion, people were short-sighted.''
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2019 09:40 AM by esayem.)
01-31-2019 09:38 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.
01-31-2019 12:04 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 12:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.

Cincinnati was regulated to 1-AA for a season in the early 80's, there is no way they would have been included.

Louisville and Virginia Tech would have been considered way out of the footprint back then, but who knows. That's why Rutgers and Temple were shoe-ins for any all-sports leagues.

I wonder if Rutgers accepting an initial Big East invite would have been cause for Penn State being voted-in?
01-31-2019 12:21 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 12:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.

Cincinnati was regulated to 1-AA for a season in the early 80's, there is no way they would have been included.

Louisville and Virginia Tech would have been considered way out of the footprint back then, but who knows. That's why Rutgers and Temple were shoe-ins for any all-sports leagues.

I wonder if Rutgers accepting an initial Big East invite would have been cause for Penn State being voted-in?

Yep!

Rutgers turning down the Big East to cast their lot with Penn State is incredibly underrated on the dumbest realignment decisions scale

The Big 10 bailed them out
01-31-2019 12:24 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 12:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.

Cincinnati was regulated to 1-AA for a season in the early 80's, there is no way they would have been included.

Louisville and Virginia Tech would have been considered way out of the footprint back then, but who knows. That's why Rutgers and Temple were shoe-ins for any all-sports leagues.

I wonder if Rutgers accepting an initial Big East invite would have been cause for Penn State being voted-in?

Except Cincinnati was never relegated or demoted.

The NCAA tried to demote Cincinnati after the 1982 season , but Cincinnati appealed and won.

The NY Times article on Cincinnati defeating Penn State never mentions Cincinnati being in the lower division. Lower in the article, it DOES mention that Delaware is in Division 1-aa.

The book, The Playing Grounds of College Football A Comprehensive Directory lists UC as D-1A from 1978 onward (1978 was the first year of the split between D-1A and D-1AA).

And it makes no sense. After the 1982 season, UC hired the OC from an 8-4 SEC team as our head coach. After a 4-6-1 season with UC, he was poached by a Power conference team (Rice). Do either of those things happen to a D-1aa team?

Our 1983 schedule may have been the toughest in the country (the year we were supposedly "relegated"): Home games against Oklahoma State, Cornell, Temple, Miami (FL), Rutgers, and Memphis. Road games against Penn State, Louisville, Florida State, Kentucky, and Miami (OH).
01-31-2019 01:56 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 09:38 AM)esayem Wrote:  In short, no. Penn State was dead set against anything except all-sports. The reason they wanted in the Big East was to settle their olympic sports home, and Paterno thought it was a way to start a football conference through membership. Syracuse always favored a football-only conference due to their membership in the Big East.

The only ways there could have been a major northeast football conference:

• The Big East accepted Penn State. This would have led to some sort of Big East football with Penn State.

• An eastern all-sports conference formed including Syracuse. This was sometimes called the Eastern Seaboard Conference when it included some powerful Southern Independents.

The northeast was in turmoil in the late 80's with Penn State and Syracuse's coaches and AD's at each other's throats because of animosity that had grown over the years. That is what gave the Big Ten the idea to invite the northeast's land-grant, football crazy, crown jewel, Penn State. The northeast was vulnerable and the midwest struck.

From an article in 1989 (Tarman is the PSU AD):

Syracuse athletic director Jake Crouthamel sees this latest round of talks as an opportunity to finally shine the spotlight on the Eastern independents, give them a unified voice on the national football scene and tap into the region's lucrative television markets.
``To join together as a group of Eastern independents, we can accomplish something no one else has ever accomplished in the Northeast, and that's to unify football,'' said Crouthamel. ``We don't get together in anything but officiating. If we get started in a football-only arrangement, then it wouldn't be long before we'd be involved in an all-sports conference.''
If that sounds vaguely like an overture of compromise to Penn State, the Nittany Lions aren't biting.
``Penn State is not going to take that chance,'' said Tarman. ``It's got to be all from the start for us to have any interest.''
Crouthamel and Tarman accused each other of thwarting negotiations when conference talks last broke off in the early part of this decade. At that point, Penn State led the schools to the negotiating table only to see discussions fall apart when Pittsburgh bolted to join the fledgling Big East Conference. Syracuse and Boston College then decided they would remain members of the Big East, ending all thoughts of an all-sports conference for the Eastern independents.
It was that experience that lit the flames of bitter feelings that have now engulfed the two schools.
Tarman said Penn State tried to get a conference going eight years ago, but came out looking like ``the heavies'' when that idea fell through.
``Some said it would have happened if Penn State would have been willing to share its football revenues,'' said Tarman. ``But we were always willing to do that as long as we got something in return. We had a revenue-sharing formula we were ready to take to the presidents and vice-presidents. We had a tie to a major New Year's Day bowl. Then Pitt joined the Big East. Syracuse and Boston College decided to stay, and that torpedoed the idea.
``In our opinion, people were short-sighted.''

Well, in this scenario, the EAA becomes the all-sports conference (including FB) in the late '70s that PSU wanted. The only things it doesn't have are BC and Syracuse's non-FB sports, but they have all of Pitt's sports, as well as those of Rutgers, WVU, and Temple. The actual point of divergence from our timeline is the EAA sponsoring football, but the first big difference this change made is Pitt choosing to stay with the EAA. That in turn strengthens PSU's commitment to the EAA, even without Syracuse BB.
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2019 03:49 PM by Nerdlinger.)
01-31-2019 03:29 PM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
The Big East would have been much better off if the initial lineup was

Providence
St John's
Georgetown
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Temple

Penn State and Pitt would have both been accepted and Big East football would have been formed immediately under Gavitts terms instead of Paterno's failed attempt.

If Penn St would have stayed when the Big 10 came calling, no one will know for sure but it would have been interesting and led to a northeastern all sports conference having time to lay a foundation on it's own terms
01-31-2019 05:07 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 03:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Well, in this scenario, the EAA becomes the all-sports conference (including FB) in the late '70s that PSU wanted. The only things it doesn't have are BC and Syracuse's non-FB sports, but they have all of Pitt's sports, as well as those of Rutgers, WVU, and Temple. The actual point of divergence from our timeline is the EAA sponsoring football, but the first big difference this change made is Pitt choosing to stay with the EAA. That in turn strengthens PSU's commitment to the EAA, even without Syracuse BB.

I'm saying that scenario would never have happened because Penn State and their friends would never have allowed Syracuse and BC to join for football-only.
01-31-2019 05:35 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 01:56 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Except Cincinnati was never relegated or demoted.

The NCAA tried to demote Cincinnati after the 1982 season , but Cincinnati appealed and won.

The NY Times article on Cincinnati defeating Penn State never mentions Cincinnati being in the lower division. Lower in the article, it DOES mention that Delaware is in Division 1-aa.

The book, The Playing Grounds of College Football A Comprehensive Directory lists UC as D-1A from 1978 onward (1978 was the first year of the split between D-1A and D-1AA).

And it makes no sense. After the 1982 season, UC hired the OC from an 8-4 SEC team as our head coach. After a 4-6-1 season with UC, he was poached by a Power conference team (Rice). Do either of those things happen to a D-1aa team?

Our 1983 schedule may have been the toughest in the country (the year we were supposedly "relegated"): Home games against Oklahoma State, Cornell, Temple, Miami (FL), Rutgers, and Memphis. Road games against Penn State, Louisville, Florida State, Kentucky, and Miami (OH).

My apologies, I read an article that said they were being bumped down to 1-AA due to attendance.

I still don't think they were on anyone's radar though.
01-31-2019 05:46 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 05:35 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 03:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Well, in this scenario, the EAA becomes the all-sports conference (including FB) in the late '70s that PSU wanted. The only things it doesn't have are BC and Syracuse's non-FB sports, but they have all of Pitt's sports, as well as those of Rutgers, WVU, and Temple. The actual point of divergence from our timeline is the EAA sponsoring football, but the first big difference this change made is Pitt choosing to stay with the EAA. That in turn strengthens PSU's commitment to the EAA, even without Syracuse BB.

I'm saying that scenario would never have happened because Penn State and their friends would never have allowed Syracuse and BC to join for football-only.

OK, so you have PSU, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers, WVU, VT, FSU, and Miami. That would have been pretty solid.
01-31-2019 05:46 PM
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
I think Penn St and BC/Cuse couldn't come to terms with who else would be in the conference.

Penn St wanted Pitt, Temple, Rutgers, and WVU for football.

BC and Cuse wanted their basketball league too. If they could agree to bring only a few of the block of UConn and the 5 Catholic schools to the new league they could of had a pretty awesome conference.

Bring VT, S Carolina, FSU, and Miami from the ranks of the independents as FB only members.

I think this league would still be susceptible to raids from the ACC but perhaps Penn St would want to play the part of Texas in the Eastern League and rebuff the advances of the Big a Ten.
01-31-2019 08:34 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 05:46 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 05:35 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 03:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Well, in this scenario, the EAA becomes the all-sports conference (including FB) in the late '70s that PSU wanted. The only things it doesn't have are BC and Syracuse's non-FB sports, but they have all of Pitt's sports, as well as those of Rutgers, WVU, and Temple. The actual point of divergence from our timeline is the EAA sponsoring football, but the first big difference this change made is Pitt choosing to stay with the EAA. That in turn strengthens PSU's commitment to the EAA, even without Syracuse BB.

I'm saying that scenario would never have happened because Penn State and their friends would never have allowed Syracuse and BC to join for football-only.

OK, so you have PSU, Pitt, Temple, Rutgers, WVU, VT, FSU, and Miami. That would have been pretty solid.

It looks solid, but unfortunately Miami didn't even have a basketball team from 1971 until 1985. Plus, Miami and FSU were plenty happy as Southern Independents destroying 85% of the dwarfs on their schedule, playing each other, and maybe one or two marquee games a year.

The divide between Eastern and Southern Independents was too great back then, and nobody had the forethought to sprawl from New England to South Beach. Look at their schedules in the 70's and 80's, you will hardly see a team like South Carolina play Eastern Independents, or Boston College play Southern Independents. Even Metro Conference members didn't regularly schedule each other in football.

Penn State played the other Eastern Independents and then a national game or two like Alabama or Notre Dame. They had a series with NC State for a while, probably for recruiting purposes.

South Carolina and Virginia Tech played each other, some Southern Independents like FSU and Miami pretty regularly, and then a smattering of ACC and SEC teams. VaTech also kept a longstanding rivalry with West Virginia. Trivia: Virginia Tech and West Virginia were supported by UNC for ACC membership in the 50's.

The point is: by looking at schedules you can see who schools would want to align with in football. There just wasn't that much crossover back then.
02-01-2019 09:21 AM
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mikeinsec127 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 12:24 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.

Cincinnati was regulated to 1-AA for a season in the early 80's, there is no way they would have been included.

Louisville and Virginia Tech would have been considered way out of the footprint back then, but who knows. That's why Rutgers and Temple were shoe-ins for any all-sports leagues.

I wonder if Rutgers accepting an initial Big East invite would have been cause for Penn State being voted-in?

Yep!

Rutgers turning down the Big East to cast their lot with Penn State is incredibly underrated on the dumbest realignment decisions scale

The Big 10 bailed them out

No argument from here. For RU this was just one in a years long series of blunders that our long time AD - Fred Gruninger - made.
02-01-2019 11:13 AM
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solohawks Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(02-01-2019 11:13 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:24 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.

Cincinnati was regulated to 1-AA for a season in the early 80's, there is no way they would have been included.

Louisville and Virginia Tech would have been considered way out of the footprint back then, but who knows. That's why Rutgers and Temple were shoe-ins for any all-sports leagues.

I wonder if Rutgers accepting an initial Big East invite would have been cause for Penn State being voted-in?

Yep!

Rutgers turning down the Big East to cast their lot with Penn State is incredibly underrated on the dumbest realignment decisions scale

The Big 10 bailed them out

No argument from here. For RU this was just one in a years long series of blunders that our long time AD - Fred Gruninger - made.

Yep, if Rutgers takes the Seton Hall spot then Penn State wins the Big East vote and Big East football gets launched in the early 80s as opposed to scrambling to put something together
02-01-2019 02:29 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(02-01-2019 02:29 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(02-01-2019 11:13 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:24 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 12:04 PM)ken d Wrote:  If an all-sports conference, including Penn State, had formed from northeastern independents, I suspect the Big East might never have formed at all. The question is: were there enough schools already playing at a level that would have warranted a full-fledged all sports conference?

With 20/20 hindsight, one could say Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati and Virginia Tech would have made a conference that could be considered a power conference today. They wouldn't have needed any non-football schools. If it had formed before the NCAA expanded the tournament field to allow at-large entries, Maryland might even have been tempted to leave the ACC.

With all those schools already spoken for, what would have been left for a Big East to form with? Dave Gavitt's dream probably would have withered on the vine.

Cincinnati was regulated to 1-AA for a season in the early 80's, there is no way they would have been included.

Louisville and Virginia Tech would have been considered way out of the footprint back then, but who knows. That's why Rutgers and Temple were shoe-ins for any all-sports leagues.

I wonder if Rutgers accepting an initial Big East invite would have been cause for Penn State being voted-in?

Yep!

Rutgers turning down the Big East to cast their lot with Penn State is incredibly underrated on the dumbest realignment decisions scale

The Big 10 bailed them out

No argument from here. For RU this was just one in a years long series of blunders that our long time AD - Fred Gruninger - made.

Yep, if Rutgers takes the Seton Hall spot then Penn State wins the Big East vote and Big East football gets launched in the early 80s as opposed to scrambling to put something together

Wiki says it was Georgetown, St. John's, and Villanova that voted against Penn State, not Seton Hall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_East_C...arly_years
02-01-2019 02:55 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #19
RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(01-31-2019 05:07 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The Big East would have been much better off if the initial lineup was

Providence
St John's
Georgetown
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Temple

Penn State and Pitt would have both been accepted and Big East football would have been formed immediately under Gavitts terms instead of Paterno's failed attempt.

If Penn St would have stayed when the Big 10 came calling, no one will know for sure but it would have been interesting and led to a northeastern all sports conference having time to lay a foundation on it's own terms

I think I read once that Seton Hall voted yes for Penn St so it probably wouldn't have changed things to replace the Pirates for the Scarlet Knights.

A dream eastern league would have been:

Penn St, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, WVU, BC, Cuse

G'town, St John's, UConn

Miami and VT could be added later as FB onlys and eventually full members. UConn upgrades their program in 2004.

Villanova and Seton Hall get left out due to duplication of markets. BC and UConn would offer significant coverage of New England to not need Providence. Those 3 end up in a league with Duquesne, UMass, St Joe's, URI, etc.
02-01-2019 03:39 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Could the Eastern 8 have become a power football conference?
(02-01-2019 03:39 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(01-31-2019 05:07 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The Big East would have been much better off if the initial lineup was

Providence
St John's
Georgetown
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Temple

Penn State and Pitt would have both been accepted and Big East football would have been formed immediately under Gavitts terms instead of Paterno's failed attempt.

If Penn St would have stayed when the Big 10 came calling, no one will know for sure but it would have been interesting and led to a northeastern all sports conference having time to lay a foundation on it's own terms

I think I read once that Seton Hall voted yes for Penn St so it probably wouldn't have changed things to replace the Pirates for the Scarlet Knights.

A dream eastern league would have been:

Penn St, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, WVU, BC, Cuse

G'town, St John's, UConn

Miami and VT could be added later as FB onlys and eventually full members. UConn upgrades their program in 2004.

Villanova and Seton Hall get left out due to duplication of markets. BC and UConn would offer significant coverage of New England to not need Providence. Those 3 end up in a league with Duquesne, UMass, St Joe's, URI, etc.

Ideally, I think Villanova would be in there as well. Even though they duplicate the Philly market, it's a big market. Technically, Rutgers and St. John's are duplicates as well, but NY/NJ is an even bigger market.

Would such a lineup entice ND to join as a non-FB member?

Eastern Athletic Conference (8 FB, 12 BB)
Full: Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia
NFB: Connecticut, Georgetown, Notre Dame, St. John's, Villanova
FBO: Virginia Tech (later Miami, FSU?)

Basketball divisions:

Boston College/West Virginia
Connecticut/Temple
Georgetown/Villanova
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
St. John's/Rutgers
Syracuse/Penn State

Each team plays its 5 division mates twice, 2 crossovers (1 permanent, 1 rotating) twice, and the rest once for an 18-game schedule.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2019 04:48 PM by Nerdlinger.)
02-01-2019 04:39 PM
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