Do I believe there were 700,000 Jews being lead through the Sinai? Or did a translation or transcription error change 70,000 to 700,000? Or was it simply a large number and the scribe chose 700,000?

What does any of that matter? Its an earthly thing, not a heavenly thing. It doesn't change the truth of the story that the Bible tells.

(02-03-2019 12:37 PM)bullet Wrote:  Do I believe there were 700,000 Jews being lead through the Sinai? Or did a translation or transcription error change 70,000 to 700,000? Or was it simply a large number and the scribe chose 700,000?

What does any of that matter? Its an earthly thing, not a heavenly thing. It doesn't change the truth of the story that the Bible tells.

Well apparently you think God has the ability to create the entire universe, space, time matter, everything by speaking it into existence, but keeping His Word for all time, even into the latter days as He promised us in the OT was somehow beyond His ability.

Do you realize how accurate the math is concerning multiple prophecies in the bible that stretch over many centuries? Did you know the exact time of Jesus appearing in Jerusalem was prophesied some 500 years out in the OT? Are you aware that the math in the OT prophesies give the exact year of Israels return as nation in 1948, some 2500 years in advance?

Arguing over the Hebrew Census does not matter much, but arguing the first several chapters of Genesis are not literal, yeah, thats a HUGE deal and destroys the entire foundation of the Gospel, Christ and the entire Bible. The entire foundation of the Gospel is based on a LITERAL Genesis 1-11.

There is a reason God kept all those EXACT genealogies early in Genesis, even down to the exact year of each birth and death from Adam and all through Genesis, to show us this is a LITERAL historical record, not a fantasy parable with some vague spiritual truth behind it. That is why parables never have specific names, years or other specific details. ("a certain man", "a certain King", a good Samaritan", "a sower", "workers in a vineyard", "a man traveling to a far country", the faithful and the wicked servant", etc.)

But the fact is, if you have set your heart on rejecting it as a historical literal truth, no matter what I post or what you read in the Bible its going to change your mind. Even when Jesus and all the Apostles teach it as a literal truth.

(02-03-2019 11:44 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 05:43 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 02:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why would God define a day based on an earthly perspective?


Better question, why would it matter?

Why would a person who claims to be a believer in God and accepted Jesus Christ as His Savior want to reject what God, Jesus and all the Apostles told us?

Surely you can see the destructive nature of changing the bible into a simple allegory that is not real. Not only in the creation story but the entire Bible. Many "Christians" today reject the Bible and choose to allegorize it away so they can create their own truth in whatever part they desire. So there is no real truth, only truth in the eyes of the beholder. Our culture is full of that garbage today.

Jesus said man cannot live by bread alone, but every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. How can a person live on the Words of God of they don't even believe those words are REAL.

Jesus literally said the earth was created in 6 days, He said the flood was REAL and literal, He spoke of many things in Genesis and ALWAYS spoke of them as REAL and LITERAL, He spoke of Adam and Eve as REAL and LITERAL people, He spoke of Noah and the flood as REAL and LITERAL, He never spoke of any of them as a parable. All the Apostles who wrote in the bibel repeatedly spoke of the people and the patriarchs in Genesis, they ALWAYS spoke of them as REAL and LITERAL people and events.

How can we claim to have faith in Christ, yet reject what HE said and believed?

If you are willing to tell others, including those who are not Christian that the OT is not real and literal, then what are they to conclude but that the NT is also unreal and unliteral, including the Resurrection of Christ. You lay a foundation of denial of the entire thing, and this foundation has been laid by previous generations, and now here today most Christians reject the OT being real and literal, and non Christians see this and it compounds their unbelief and reinforces it. If not even a Christian has the faith to believe, how can a non believer?

I'm not trying to change your mind, but do you take literally that people cannot live by bread alone? Was there really a good Samaritan on that road?

Its my belief that there is a beauty and deep underlying truth in the Bible that shows up even more when you look at it as a series of parables.

If you believe God caused evolution and that is how the world was created, all that can be seen in a Genesis explanation to people who had no concept of evolution or DNA.

We all know that throughout human history people have put forth explanations for things they didn't understand.

Even scientists of their day were misinformed.

Then we became enlightened and scientists were seen as the new source of truth.

We came to know that life originated as a very simple glob of goo and from that goo all life sprang forth!


And now we know that those enlightened scientists were really nothing more than soothsayers and jesters.

We know that there is no "simple" life form. Every life form is incredibly complex.

On the PR front "scientist" are still pushing that failed theory while behind the scenes they huddle to determine how to evolve their theory to make it somehow work.


DNA is information. It's not random jibberish, it's specified and incredibly complex.

Information that degrades does not add new specificity or complexity.

Probability mathematics tells us there is not enough time, given the supposed age of the universe, for random mutations to form the necessary proteins to build life.

So, given the failing of evolution, I don't think God used a Genesis story to provide a rudimentary explanation of an invalid process.

(02-02-2019 05:43 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Surely you can see the destructive nature of changing the bible into a simple allegory that is not real.

Actually, I can't.

I see science as telling us what happened, and the Bible telling us why. As long as I don't get the two questions confused or commingled, I don't see the controversy.

(02-05-2019 01:16 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(02-03-2019 11:44 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 05:43 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-01-2019 02:45 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why would God define a day based on an earthly perspective?


Better question, why would it matter?

Why would a person who claims to be a believer in God and accepted Jesus Christ as His Savior want to reject what God, Jesus and all the Apostles told us?

Surely you can see the destructive nature of changing the bible into a simple allegory that is not real. Not only in the creation story but the entire Bible. Many "Christians" today reject the Bible and choose to allegorize it away so they can create their own truth in whatever part they desire. So there is no real truth, only truth in the eyes of the beholder. Our culture is full of that garbage today.

Jesus said man cannot live by bread alone, but every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. How can a person live on the Words of God of they don't even believe those words are REAL.

Jesus literally said the earth was created in 6 days, He said the flood was REAL and literal, He spoke of many things in Genesis and ALWAYS spoke of them as REAL and LITERAL, He spoke of Adam and Eve as REAL and LITERAL people, He spoke of Noah and the flood as REAL and LITERAL, He never spoke of any of them as a parable. All the Apostles who wrote in the bibel repeatedly spoke of the people and the patriarchs in Genesis, they ALWAYS spoke of them as REAL and LITERAL people and events.

How can we claim to have faith in Christ, yet reject what HE said and believed?

If you are willing to tell others, including those who are not Christian that the OT is not real and literal, then what are they to conclude but that the NT is also unreal and unliteral, including the Resurrection of Christ. You lay a foundation of denial of the entire thing, and this foundation has been laid by previous generations, and now here today most Christians reject the OT being real and literal, and non Christians see this and it compounds their unbelief and reinforces it. If not even a Christian has the faith to believe, how can a non believer?

I'm not trying to change your mind, but do you take literally that people cannot live by bread alone? Was there really a good Samaritan on that road?

Its my belief that there is a beauty and deep underlying truth in the Bible that shows up even more when you look at it as a series of parables.

If you believe God caused evolution and that is how the world was created, all that can be seen in a Genesis explanation to people who had no concept of evolution or DNA.

We all know that throughout human history people have put forth explanations for things they didn't understand.

Even scientists of their day were misinformed.

Then we became enlightened and scientists were seen as the new source of truth.

We came to know that life originated as a very simple glob of goo and from that goo all life sprang forth!


And now we know that those enlightened scientists were really nothing more than soothsayers and jesters.

We know that there is no "simple" life form. Every life form is incredibly complex.

On the PR front "scientist" are still pushing that failed theory while behind the scenes they huddle to determine how to evolve their theory to make it somehow work.


DNA is information. It's not random jibberish, it's specified and incredibly complex.

Information that degrades does not add new specificity or complexity.

Probability mathematics tells us there is not enough time, given the supposed age of the universe, for random mutations to form the necessary proteins to build life.

So, given the failing of evolution, I don't think God used a Genesis story to provide a rudimentary explanation of an invalid process.

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with how life got started in the first place.

(02-05-2019 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 05:43 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Surely you can see the destructive nature of changing the bible into a simple allegory that is not real.

Actually, I can't.

I see science as telling us what happened, and the Bible telling us why. As long as I don't get the two questions confused or commingled, I don't see the controversy.

Well you are willfully blind. Less and less people believe in the bible, less and less people go to chruch, less and less people consider themselves Christians. Less and less people are finding salvation through Christ.

Maybe if you aren't a Christian and a non-beliver then that may not yet matter to you. (It will on the day of judgment)

For those who do believe, and understand the eternal consequences of rejecting Christ and the Word of God, its heartbreaking.

(02-06-2019 04:40 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-05-2019 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 05:43 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Surely you can see the destructive nature of changing the bible into a simple allegory that is not real.

Actually, I can't.
I see science as telling us what happened, and the Bible telling us why. As long as I don't get the two questions confused or commingled, I don't see the controversy.

Well you are willfully blind. Less and less people believe in the bible, less and less people go to chruch, less and less people consider themselves Christians. Less and less people are finding salvation through Christ.
Maybe if you aren't a Christian and a non-beliver then that may not yet matter to you. (It will on the day of judgment)
For those who do believe, and understand the eternal consequences of rejecting Christ and the Word of God, its heartbreaking.

I do not disbelieve the Bible. Far from it.

I do not see creation as a salvation issue. I simply do not see how my acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior is impacted by whether or not I believe that creation occurred in seven literal days of 24 hours each.

(02-06-2019 08:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-06-2019 04:40 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-05-2019 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-02-2019 05:43 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Surely you can see the destructive nature of changing the bible into a simple allegory that is not real.

Actually, I can't.
I see science as telling us what happened, and the Bible telling us why. As long as I don't get the two questions confused or commingled, I don't see the controversy.

Well you are willfully blind. Less and less people believe in the bible, less and less people go to chruch, less and less people consider themselves Christians. Less and less people are finding salvation through Christ.
Maybe if you aren't a Christian and a non-beliver then that may not yet matter to you. (It will on the day of judgment)
For those who do believe, and understand the eternal consequences of rejecting Christ and the Word of God, its heartbreaking.

I do not disbelieve the Bible. Far from it.

I do not see creation as a salvation issue. I simply do not see how my acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior is impacted by whether or not I believe that creation occurred in seven literal days of 24 hours each.

Well no one said it was an individual salvation issue, in fact if you read the posts and watch the short vid, you would would never had said that and realized that was never remotely the point here.

Go back and watch the vids and you will understand why this matters.

If you think Salvation is all that God cares about and nothing else matters in a society, then you might as well flush the entire Bible down the toilet because you just rejected one of the central teachings throughout the entire Bible.

If you truly believed in the bible, you would not being saying its meaningless how people view the Bible and its meaningless how that affects a society and the destructive nature it has on a society when people devalue the Word. Much less the terrible state America and much of the world is current in as they move away from Christ and salvation and fully embrace humanism, atheism and other things that lead them to damnation. Its hard to believe any Bible believer could possible not see the rapid decline of Christianity in America, and it virtual extinction already in Europe and not be gravely concerned for the future generation.

Your dismissive attitude about the issue and the declining respect of the of literalness Gods Word and Christ in our society is not indicative of someone who is a Bible believing Christian.

That is not meant as a judgment of you, but an acknowledgment of the dramatic divide between your comments and what the Bible actually says.

(02-06-2019 11:22 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If you truly believed in the bible, you would not being saying its meaningless how people views the Bible and its meaningless how that affect a society and the destructive nature it has on a society when people devalue the bible.

But I'm not saying any of that. So please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say.

(02-06-2019 11:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-06-2019 11:22 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If you truly believed in the bible, you would not being saying its meaningless how people views the Bible and its meaningless how that affect a society and the destructive nature it has on a society when people devalue the bible.

But I'm not saying any of that. So please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say.

I'm not trying to pick on you my friend, but most people today who identity as Christian hardly ever read their Bible and don't really even know what a biblical world view is or how to discern the world through a bible based mindset. The overwhelming majority of them have a much more secular and worldly mindset/lens they view and discern the world through. That was very much the impression I got from your comments, and that is the norm for most people today.

A lot of people would say they believe in the bible, but the reality is most of them are Biblically illiterate and are hard to distinguish between non believers. They are very much conformed to this world, and quite comfortable with it.

That plays a big role in why most of them do not believe Genesis is literal, or most of the OT is literal. Many of them do not even believe the NT is literal. So not only are they not teaching their children to value Gods Word on a serious level, they reinforce many non believers feelings as well when they see even the Christians don't believe most of it is real.

It has an incredibly corrosive and destructive effect on a society and we are in the more advanced stages of it.

I would just ask you to consider these things in the days, weeks and years ahead, God willing.

Peace and grace to you.

Eric, what do you think of the theory about Mt. Sinai being in Saudi Arabia?

(02-06-2019 12:58 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Eric, what do you think of the theory about Mt. Sinai being in Saudi Arabia?

I've looked into it a bit, and its difficult to say for sure.

If you are referring to Jabal al-Lawz, that has a lot of strong physical evidence for it. It has the giant split rock that water flowed from, it has an ancient spring on top of the MT. The top is charred and burned, has a small cave right where it should be (Elijah), it has the remnants of a sacrificial altar, and even remains of 12 pillars that match with the text of the Bible. Plus a lot of other things.