Thought this was interesting in light of the discussion about the Pac-12 and fan interest. Wilner makes some good suggestions about how to make Vegas a Pac-12 destination weekend around the championship game.

But it gets to the heart of things, which is that most of the neutral site championship games (Atlanta and the SEC being the notable exception) are sterile, expensive money grabs that are not easy sells to fanbases that know they'll have to pay dearly for at least one more bowl game after that - two for the teams that make the national title game. This is why many wouldn't whine about seeing these championship games go away, or at least become home-hosted events. It's also why any expansion of the playoff almost has to be done on campus for many rounds.

Those who wax poetic about bowl games fail to appreciate that their romanticized memories of those games were from the days when the TV options weren't great and fans weren't being fleeced at every corner. Other than the Rose Bowl, there are few bowl destinations that really rise to the level of being a destination. For many college football fans, the tailgating experience is a good part of the allure, and few bowl games really let you have anything close to that.

The times they are a-changin...

USFFan

(01-25-2019 12:01 PM)usffan Wrote:  

Thought this was interesting in light of the discussion about the Pac-12 and fan interest. Wilner makes some good suggestions about how to make Vegas a Pac-12 destination weekend around the championship game.

But it gets to the heart of things, which is that most of the neutral site championship games (Atlanta and the SEC being the notable exception) are sterile, expensive money grabs that are not easy sells to fanbases that know they'll have to pay dearly for at least one more bowl game after that - two for the teams that make the national title game. This is why many wouldn't whine about seeing these championship games go away, or at least become home-hosted events. It's also why any expansion of the playoff almost has to be done on campus for many rounds.

Those who wax poetic about bowl games fail to appreciate that their romanticized memories of those games were from the days when the TV options weren't great and fans weren't being fleeced at every corner. Other than the Rose Bowl, there are few bowl destinations that really rise to the level of being a destination. For many college football fans, the tailgating experience is a good part of the allure, and few bowl games really let you have anything close to that.

The times they are a-changin...

USFFan

They should buck the P5 trend and play it in the home stadium of the higher ranked participate (which is under consideration). Another out of the box option would be teaming with the MW to have their CCG in the same city (say Vegas). I see no reason you couldnt do this in conjunction with the basketball event discussed in the article. So you do a CCG double header and sell the tickets as a 2-for-1. The CCG's could be back to back on the same day or you could do them on separate days (say one on Friday night and the other sometime on Sat).

Conference CCGs are in decline because they no longer are playing for anything, and the novelty wore off.

If you were actually playing for a berth in the playoffs the interest would come back and the ratings would rise.

For the Pac-12 they need the game to be on Saturday if they care about attendance at a neutral site like Las Vegas. Most of us would go to Vegas for a weekend, it's got things to do, places to see, good December weather. Some would make it a two nighter, taking Friday off, but most would probably just take a commuter Saturday and come back Sunday night. Santa Clara (really an "industrial" town) and Friday night is a terrible combination, and can only get half decent crowds if Cal or Stanford play (local fans). If the CCG is Friday night, then it has to be a home game for the higher seed.

I am all in for
(a) ending divisions, sending top two ranked teams to CCGs
(b) auto berths for CCG winners from P5
© going to 8 team Playoff with 4 NY6 games the quarterfinals
- (c2) semifinals played a week later on campus of highest two winning seeds
- (c3) push back NCG one week to accommodate semifinals

P12 doesn't control that. But it does control it's CCG kickoff and location. Even if it means less revenue, I'd be for Saturday Night in Vegas over Friday Night in Santa Clara (a sterile stadium that has not won over anyone -- terrible design). If they insist on Friday Night, then it has to move on campus despite often bad weather. At least the home fans will show up.

Well at least they are starting to think about things. (I still wish they'd think about a Kick-off classic and playing P12 opening games on Labor Day Sunday since the NFL no longer plays final exhibition games that day)


It would also help if they got rid of divisions and just took the highest two ranked teams.

(01-25-2019 01:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Conference CCGs are in decline because they no longer are playing for anything, and the novelty wore off.

If you were actually playing for a berth in the playoffs the interest would come back and the ratings would rise.

For the Pac-12 they need the game to be on Saturday if they care about attendance at a neutral site like Las Vegas. Most of us would go to Vegas for a weekend, it's got things to do, places to see, good December weather. Some would make it a two nighter, taking Friday off, but most would probably just take a commuter Saturday and come back Sunday night. Santa Clara (really an "industrial" town) and Friday night is a terrible combination, and can only get half decent crowds if Cal or Stanford play (local fans). If the CCG is Friday night, then it has to be a home game for the higher seed.

I am all in for
(a) ending divisions, sending top two ranked teams to CCGs
(b) auto berths for CCG winners from P5
© going to 8 team Playoff with 4 NY6 games the quarterfinals
- (c2) semifinals played a week later on campus of highest two winning seeds
- (c3) push back NCG one week to accommodate semifinals

P12 doesn't control that. But it does control it's CCG kickoff and location. Even if it means less revenue, I'd be for Saturday Night in Vegas over Friday Night in Santa Clara (a sterile stadium that has not won over anyone -- terrible design). Of they insist on Friday Night, then it has to move on campus despite often bad weather. At least the home fans will show up.

Well at least they are starting to think about things. (I still wish they'd think about a Kick-off classic and playing P12 opening games on Labor Day Sunday since the NFL no longer plays final exhibition games that day)


It would also help if they got rid of divisions and just took the highest two ranked teams.

Sounds like your pretty close to the 5-1-2 CFP plan as the way to make P5 CCG's a big deal again.

They should have it in Las Vegas once the Raiders move. The basketball tournament is already in Vegas. It’s a destination city and really easy and cheap to get to.

(01-25-2019 02:15 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  They should have it in Las Vegas once the Raiders move. The basketball tournament is already in Vegas. It’s a destination city and really easy and cheap to get to.

It will either be in the Raiders LV stadium or the Rams/Chargers LA stadium.

(01-25-2019 12:01 PM)usffan Wrote:  Those who wax poetic about bowl games fail to appreciate that their romanticized memories of those games were from the days when the TV options weren't great and fans weren't being fleeced at every corner.

I've liked watching bowl games for going on 50 years now, but as many good memories of epic bowl games from the 70s and 80s as I have, it's never been better than it is now.

The three weeks of bowl games we get from around December 15th to early January is awesome, IMO, and it depends on there being a lot of bowl games.

(01-25-2019 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Sounds like your pretty close to the 5-1-2 CFP plan as the way to make P5 CCG's a big deal again.

I'm for 5 and 3. Not 5-1-2. No interest in guarantee for G5.

This year was unusual in a G5 going undefeated and the coaches (not the computers due to their very soft schedule) ranking them in the top 10. This year UCF may well have gotten in (tOSU, UW and I think also UGa would be locks). But most years the G5 rep has been typically a 15th-18th ranked team with a loss or two, in no way deserving. Louisiana and Western Michigan have been NY6 recently and in no way deserving. This UCF team two years running strong reminds me of Boise State in the 2000s for a 3 or 4 year stretch. But other than those two examples, I really don't recall a deserving G5 school for the playoffs.

(01-25-2019 01:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Conference CCGs are in decline because they no longer are playing for anything, and the novelty wore off.

If you were actually playing for a berth in the playoffs the interest would come back and the ratings would rise.

For the Pac-12 they need the game to be on Saturday if they care about attendance at a neutral site like Las Vegas. Most of us would go to Vegas for a weekend, it's got things to do, places to see, good December weather. Some would make it a two nighter, taking Friday off, but most would probably just take a commuter Saturday and come back Sunday night. Santa Clara (really an "industrial" town) and Friday night is a terrible combination, and can only get half decent crowds if Cal or Stanford play (local fans). If the CCG is Friday night, then it has to be a home game for the higher seed.

I am all in for
(a) ending divisions, sending top two ranked teams to CCGs
(b) auto berths for CCG winners from P5
© going to 8 team Playoff with 4 NY6 games the quarterfinals
- (c2) semifinals played a week later on campus of highest two winning seeds
- (c3) push back NCG one week to accommodate semifinals

P12 doesn't control that. But it does control it's CCG kickoff and location. Even if it means less revenue, I'd be for Saturday Night in Vegas over Friday Night in Santa Clara (a sterile stadium that has not won over anyone -- terrible design). If they insist on Friday Night, then it has to move on campus despite often bad weather. At least the home fans will show up.

Well at least they are starting to think about things. (I still wish they'd think about a Kick-off classic and playing P12 opening games on Labor Day Sunday since the NFL no longer plays final exhibition games that day)


It would also help if they got rid of divisions and just took the highest two ranked teams.

I 100% agree with getting rid of divisions. I also think by doing this it would eliminate more teams with no need to expand playoffs beyond 4.

I like a 4 team playoff and with the 2 best teams playing each other in the conference championship, I dont believe there would be more than 4 teams with the argument of being left out.

(01-25-2019 01:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Conference CCGs are in decline because they no longer are playing for anything, and the novelty wore off.

Well, not all of them:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...ven-years/

Las Vegas is the perfect location.

(01-25-2019 03:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 12:01 PM)usffan Wrote:  Those who wax poetic about bowl games fail to appreciate that their romanticized memories of those games were from the days when the TV options weren't great and fans weren't being fleeced at every corner.

I've liked watching bowl games for going on 50 years now, but as many good memories of epic bowl games from the 70s and 80s as I have, it's never been better than it is now.

The three weeks of bowl games we get from around December 15th to early January is awesome, IMO, and it depends on there being a lot of bowl games.

It's great for the fan sitting on their couch watching the games. It's not great for the fans who are extorted/shamed into buying tickets through the universities for ridiculously inflated prices to sit in the corner/end zone after paying to travel to exotic December locations like Birmingham, AL, Shreveport, LA or even Detroit, MI. I can't imagine how much it must have sucked to be a Boston College or Boise State fan who paid $1,000+ to fly to Dallas in the dead of winter, incurred room and board costs, forked over $50 to park, only to have their bowl game cancelled after less than one quarter.

Frankly, I don't believe the bowl model is sustainable long term. Eventually as fans get older and realize they don't need the hassle of traveling all the way to El Paso around the holidays to watch glorified scrimmage games where star players are increasingly deciding to sit out so they don't ruin their chance at an NFL career, the games will dry up like ESPN's declining subscriber base.

USFFan

(01-25-2019 01:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Conference CCGs are in decline because they no longer are playing for anything, and the novelty wore off.

If you were actually playing for a berth in the playoffs the interest would come back and the ratings would rise.

For the Pac-12 they need the game to be on Saturday if they care about attendance at a neutral site like Las Vegas. Most of us would go to Vegas for a weekend, it's got things to do, places to see, good December weather. Some would make it a two nighter, taking Friday off, but most would probably just take a commuter Saturday and come back Sunday night. Santa Clara (really an "industrial" town) and Friday night is a terrible combination, and can only get half decent crowds if Cal or Stanford play (local fans). If the CCG is Friday night, then it has to be a home game for the higher seed.

I am all in for
(a) ending divisions, sending top two ranked teams to CCGs
(b) auto berths for CCG winners from P5
© going to 8 team Playoff with 4 NY6 games the quarterfinals
- (c2) semifinals played a week later on campus of highest two winning seeds
- (c3) push back NCG one week to accommodate semifinals

P12 doesn't control that. But it does control it's CCG kickoff and location. Even if it means less revenue, I'd be for Saturday Night in Vegas over Friday Night in Santa Clara (a sterile stadium that has not won over anyone -- terrible design). If they insist on Friday Night, then it has to move on campus despite often bad weather. At least the home fans will show up.

Well at least they are starting to think about things. (I still wish they'd think about a Kick-off classic and playing P12 opening games on Labor Day Sunday since the NFL no longer plays final exhibition games that day)


It would also help if they got rid of divisions and just took the highest two ranked teams.

Stu, I agree that Santa Clara is not working out for the Pac-12 Conference Championship. Vegas would be better, but it is packed the first weekend of December in Las Vegas. The National Rodeo Finals are the first two weekends of December and there are a lot of Cowboys and Cowgirls in the city. But other than that, it is a good choice.

The conference championship does have meaning because the winner is in the Rose Bowl. If you are not going to the playoffs, the Rose Bowl on January 1st is not a bad consolation prize.

(01-25-2019 08:20 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Stu, I agree that Santa Clara is not working out for the Pac-12 Conference Championship. Vegas would be better, but it is packed the first weekend of December in Las Vegas. The National Rodeo Finals are the first two weekends of December and there are a lot of Cowboys and Cowgirls in the city. But other than that, it is a good choice.

The conference championship does have meaning because the winner is in the Rose Bowl. If you are not going to the playoffs, the Rose Bowl on January 1st is not a bad consolation prize.

Yeah, but the Rose Bowl has turned into a consolation prize, which is not what it was. And 1 in 3 years it's in the Playoff rotation (2018 for example). Urban Meyer was happy because he grew up in Ohio and he finally got to go there. But the generation coming up no longer sees that as the big daddy of them all. We aging Midwesterners and Westerners from bygone days.

I want the playoff to go to 8, not just for the CCG to mean something, but also to preserve the Big Bowls and heighten them. If the B1G or P12 Champion is in the Rose Bowl then it will remain a potent game. Same for the Sugar having an SEC team, the Cotton with a B12.

Utah was not playing for anything anyway, so this year was truly a meaningless CCG.

Utah was not playing for Rose bowl?

(01-26-2019 02:00 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Utah was not playing for Rose bowl?

Honestly, we didn't deserve it. UW won the regular season matchup (granted off two questionable targeting calls one of which negated an interception). But after losing our RB and QB earlier in the season and top WR in the first half, the season was done before the second half kickoff. And Santa Clara sucked for all the reasons cited.

CCGs are pointless money grabs and often repeats. Expand the playoff to 16 with each P5 division winner getting an autobid. Still leaves 6 at large/G5 bids. Only adds one week to the season.
Last year would have been something like:
Bama v Pitt
Clemson v Northwestern
ND v Utah
Etc....

Much more entertaining than a bunch of conference rematches. And if I'm going to fly somewhere I want to see a game I haven't seen before preferably in a venue I wasn't at last year.

The CCG works in the SEC for a number of reasons:
1) Size and depth of fan bases. It is a football-centric culture. Game day is an event, even on the November weekend when the SEC schools play FCS teams.
2) Location. Atlanta is a drivable location for most of the fan bases. Several of the schools also have large numbers of alumni and fans there. The Georgia Dome was a good facility, but Mercedes-Benz is a great facility. Atlanta is very accessible and has plenty of hotel space.
3) Division setup and an 8 game conference schedule. More often than not, the champions of the East and West will not have played in the regular season. There are exceptions to this, of course.
4) Due to longevity, location, and culture, the SEC championship game has turned into an event. It attracts fans and interest from both the schools that participate and the ones that don't.

The B1G, B12, and ACC share some of these characteristics, but not as consistently as the SEC. As often as not, these conferences' championship games amount to a pure money grab.

What works for the SEC works against the Pac-12:
1) Fan bases are not as large. The West has a different culture when it comes to football. However, the Pac will run up the score in national championships in non-revenue sports.
2) The Pac footprint takes up 1/3 of the land area of the US. A neutral-site championship game is not an easy drive for most of the schools, no matter where it is. (Vegas actually works the best, as it's a relatively easy drive from Phoenix, LA, and Salt Lake City)
3) The Pac plays a 9 game conference schedule, with a greater possibility for a rematch in a championship game.
4) The Pac has the newest of the championship games, and has had trouble finding traction. It actually worked when it was on a home field, as Oregon would sell out when they hosted. Tying into this is the networks' desire to play on Friday night (due to the relative lack of national interest). A Friday night national broadcast means a 5 pm kickoff on the West Coast.

The Pac needs to try Las Vegas. If they are looking to create an event, Vegas is the place to have it. It's an easy flight from throughout the conference, and it's even drivable for 5 schools.

(01-25-2019 08:56 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 08:20 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Stu, I agree that Santa Clara is not working out for the Pac-12 Conference Championship. Vegas would be better, but it is packed the first weekend of December in Las Vegas. The National Rodeo Finals are the first two weekends of December and there are a lot of Cowboys and Cowgirls in the city. But other than that, it is a good choice.

The conference championship does have meaning because the winner is in the Rose Bowl. If you are not going to the playoffs, the Rose Bowl on January 1st is not a bad consolation prize.

Yeah, but the Rose Bowl has turned into a consolation prize, which is not what it was. And 1 in 3 years it's in the Playoff rotation (2018 for example). Urban Meyer was happy because he grew up in Ohio and he finally got to go there. But the generation coming up no longer sees that as the big daddy of them all. We aging Midwesterners and Westerners from bygone days.

I want the playoff to go to 8, not just for the CCG to mean something, but also to preserve the Big Bowls and heighten them. If the B1G or P12 Champion is in the Rose Bowl then it will remain a potent game. Same for the Sugar having an SEC team, the Cotton with a B12.

Utah was not playing for anything anyway, so this year was truly a meaningless CCG.

An interesting idea would be to have a four team playoff after the bowl games. That way all the bowl games mean a lot more and can be rooted in tradition. It extends the season, but so does an 8 team playoff.

New Years Day:
Rose- Big 10 vs Pac 12
Cotton- Big XII vs at-large
Orange- ACC vs at-large
Sugar- SEC vs at-large

The Fiesta and Peach can host at-larges as well. The pecking order can be rotated every year, much like the old Bowl Coalition. The playoff committee could have a say in voting so some marquee match-ups are ensured. This way an undefeated American or MWC champ can prove themselves on a level playing field.

(01-26-2019 11:56 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 08:56 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 08:20 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Stu, I agree that Santa Clara is not working out for the Pac-12 Conference Championship. Vegas would be better, but it is packed the first weekend of December in Las Vegas. The National Rodeo Finals are the first two weekends of December and there are a lot of Cowboys and Cowgirls in the city. But other than that, it is a good choice.

The conference championship does have meaning because the winner is in the Rose Bowl. If you are not going to the playoffs, the Rose Bowl on January 1st is not a bad consolation prize.

Yeah, but the Rose Bowl has turned into a consolation prize, which is not what it was. And 1 in 3 years it's in the Playoff rotation (2018 for example). Urban Meyer was happy because he grew up in Ohio and he finally got to go there. But the generation coming up no longer sees that as the big daddy of them all. We aging Midwesterners and Westerners from bygone days.

I want the playoff to go to 8, not just for the CCG to mean something, but also to preserve the Big Bowls and heighten them. If the B1G or P12 Champion is in the Rose Bowl then it will remain a potent game. Same for the Sugar having an SEC team, the Cotton with a B12.

Utah was not playing for anything anyway, so this year was truly a meaningless CCG.

An interesting idea would be to have a four team playoff after the bowl games. That way all the bowl games mean a lot more and can be rooted in tradition. It extends the season, but so does an 8 team playoff.

New Years Day:
Rose- Big 10 vs Pac 12
Cotton- Big XII vs at-large
Orange- ACC vs at-large
Sugar- SEC vs at-large

The Fiesta and Peach can host at-larges as well. The pecking order can be rotated every year, much like the old Bowl Coalition. The playoff committee could have a say in voting so some marquee match-ups are ensured. This way an undefeated American or MWC champ can prove themselves on a level playing field.

Travel logistics and things would be tough, unless the final four was at home fields. The national title would pretty much be the same set-up as now.

(01-25-2019 04:08 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(01-25-2019 02:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Sounds like your pretty close to the 5-1-2 CFP plan as the way to make P5 CCG's a big deal again.

I'm for 5 and 3. Not 5-1-2. No interest in guarantee for G5.

This year was unusual in a G5 going undefeated and the coaches (not the computers due to their very soft schedule) ranking them in the top 10. This year UCF may well have gotten in (tOSU, UW and I think also UGa would be locks). But most years the G5 rep has been typically a 15th-18th ranked team with a loss or two, in no way deserving. Louisiana and Western Michigan have been NY6 recently and in no way deserving. This UCF team two years running strong reminds me of Boise State in the 2000s for a 3 or 4 year stretch. But other than those two examples, I really don't recall a deserving G5 school for the playoffs.

I’m fairly sure autobid for the P5 without at least one autobid for the 5 G5 conferences would be an antitrust issue.