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MBB at UTEP
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elw4796 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:12 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 11:11 PM)elw4796 Wrote:  Okay so I just saw the play. Might be the worst clock operating I've ever seen.

There is absolutely no way there was 1.5 seconds left after Murphy's shot.

That was actually the right call. His shot goes through the bottom of the net with 1.5 left.
01-12-2019 11:13 PM
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bobreinhold1 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: MBB at UTEP
The first pass was knocked out of bounds by Milora-Brown, leaving only 0.5 seconds to play. The ball was on the baseline at the corner and the long pass was caught. It looked to me like he didn't get it off on time, but they said he did.
01-12-2019 11:14 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Online
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Post: #43
RE: MBB at UTEP
What's the rule on a tip-in vs. a full shot? I thought you need something like 0.7 seconds or all you can do is a tip-in?
01-12-2019 11:15 PM
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elw4796 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:14 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  The first pass was knocked out of bounds by Milora-Brown, leaving only 0.5 seconds to play. The ball was on the baseline at the corner and the long pass was caught. It looked to me like he didn't get it off on time, but they said he did.

Getting it off in time wasn't the issue. The clock didn't start when it touched his hand.
01-12-2019 11:16 PM
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elw4796 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:15 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  What's the rule on a tip-in vs. a full shot? I thought you need something like 0.7 seconds or all you can do is a tip-in?

0.4 seconds.
01-12-2019 11:16 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #46
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:15 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  What's the rule on a tip-in vs. a full shot? I thought you need something like 0.7 seconds or all you can do is a tip-in?

0.3 is the least amount to catch and shoot.
01-12-2019 11:17 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #47
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:16 PM)elw4796 Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 11:14 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  The first pass was knocked out of bounds by Milora-Brown, leaving only 0.5 seconds to play. The ball was on the baseline at the corner and the long pass was caught. It looked to me like he didn't get it off on time, but they said he did.

Getting it off in time wasn't the issue. The clock didn't start when it touched his hand.

That’s always the issue is when do they start the clock.
01-12-2019 11:18 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #48
RE: MBB at UTEP
Bad play by Murphy not to be near the player or sideline as the pass comes downcourt. He could have intercepted it or knocked it out of bound which would have eaten 0.2 seconds off the clock.

The tweet with the play

https://twitter.com/every1plays/status/1...35713?s=21
01-12-2019 11:24 PM
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elw4796 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: MBB at UTEP
Here is the video: https://twitter.com/every1plays/status/1...13/video/1

-Catch with one hand
-Pivot to the hoop
-Gather to two hands
-Fade away

...in 0.5 seconds.
01-12-2019 11:26 PM
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cr11owl Offline
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Post: #50
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:24 PM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  Bad play by Murphy not to be near the player or sideline as the pass comes downcourt. He could have intercepted it or knocked it out of bound which would have eaten 0.2 seconds off the clock.

The tweet with the play

https://twitter.com/every1plays/status/1...35713?s=21

LOL what a joke. 0.5 seconds my ass
01-12-2019 11:26 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #51
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:26 PM)elw4796 Wrote:  Here is the video: https://twitter.com/every1plays/status/1...13/video/1

-Catch with one hand
-Pivot to the hoop
-Gather to two hands
-Fade away

...in 0.5 seconds.

Agree.
01-12-2019 11:31 PM
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bobreinhold1 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: MBB at UTEP
Even the UTEP announcer didn't think he made it on time.
01-12-2019 11:33 PM
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gsloth Offline
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Post: #53
RE: MBB at UTEP
So, the ball was out of his hand before the clock expired. Slowing that feed down makes that clear.

HOWEVER,

In slowing down that feed, it's clear the clock didn't start when it was supposed to. You can see that in the shot clock at the top of the board. Can't see the ref who tells the clock operator when to start the clock, but he was there by the table, ready to mark it in. But given that it didn't start until the player started elevating, something hiccuped there.

And Rice loses because of it.
01-12-2019 11:43 PM
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elw4796 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: MBB at UTEP
Just because I could, I ran a stopwatch 5 times (not very scientific, I know): I got between 0.9 - 1.0 seconds each time. Not as egregious as I thought, but still pretty clear that he didn't get it off. And the refs can go to a review if they feel the clock didn't start on time, though they typically only do that in crazy obvious situations. But such is life in CUSA. I hope Pera says something to somebody.
01-12-2019 11:43 PM
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westsidewolf1989 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-12-2019 11:43 PM)elw4796 Wrote:  Just because I could, I ran a stopwatch 5 times (not very scientific, I know): I got between 0.9 - 1.0 seconds each time. Not as egregious as I thought, but still pretty clear that he didn't get it off. And the refs can go to a review if they feel the clock didn't start on time, though they typically only do that in crazy obvious situations. But such is life in CUSA. I hope Pera says something to somebody.

More like Dr Karlgaard needs to get off his sissy ass and say something, despite the Houston Marathon being next weekend.
01-13-2019 12:04 AM
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Fort Bend Owl Online
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Post: #56
RE: MBB at UTEP
Looking at the video, it wasn't as egregious as I expected. It was a series of unfortunate events, that's for sure (starting with our inability to put them away earlier in the game). I thought Mullins was fouled on his drive to the basket and then Murphy's 3-pointer looked to be with closer to 1 second to go than 1.5 (I don't think personally the clock should stop when the ball hits the net but I'd say when the ball hits the floor after going through the net). As someone else said, our defense on the last play wasn't the best.

Tough loss but we did a lot of very nice things too so hopefully the guys can bounce back. And this one loss (hopefully) won't cost them a bid to the conference tournament. I'd like to have another shot at UTEP this year (but at home).
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 08:43 AM by Fort Bend Owl.)
01-13-2019 07:43 AM
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DFW Owl Offline
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Post: #57
RE: MBB at UTEP
Studies have shown average human response time to visual stimulii is between 0.25 and 0.3 secs. Probably even longer for reacting to stimulii like seeing when a player touches a basketball at distance in a dynamic situation. So really 0.5 sec on clock is actually more like 0.8 secs at the minimum and probably even more.

If they want to to get timing exactly correct as to when to start (and stop) the clock they need to use video replay.

Edit: Not sure how the studies are done but I guess the clock operator does have the advantage of seeing the action before the touch so can anticipate to some extent. Still they have to wait until the actual event occurs and am sure there is delay before clock start.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 08:28 AM by DFW Owl.)
01-13-2019 08:21 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #58
RE: MBB at UTEP
(01-13-2019 08:21 AM)DFW Owl Wrote:  Studies have shown average human response time to visual stimulii is between 0.25 and 0.3 secs. Probably even longer for reacting to stimulii like seeing when a player touches a basketball at distance in a dynamic situation. So really 0.5 sec on clock is actually more like 0.8 secs at the minimum and probably even more.

If they want to to get timing exactly correct as to when to start (and stop) the clock they need to use video replay.

Edit: Not sure how the studies are done but I guess the clock operator does have the advantage of seeing the action before the touch so can anticipate to some extent. Still they have to wait until the actual event occurs and am sure there is delay before clock start.

In theory, there are two reactions that happen: the on-court official reacts to the touch by giving his "start-the-clock" signal, and the clock operator reacts to the official's signal.

In practice, you would hope that the clock operator has the sense to start the clock immediately upon definitively seeing the touch. But the tendency of clock operators to default to rigid adherence to procedure when it benefits their employer is uncanny.

It can be especially galling in football. When a receiver makes a sideline catch and goes out of bounds, the official blows the whistle, signals catch, marks the spot, and then signals to stop the clock. When it's late in the game and the home team is on defense with a lead, the clock operator seems to take extra care and patience not just in waiting for the full sequence of signals to play out, but even in making sure that the official has waved his arms not once but a couple of times for stopping the clock.

Ideally clock operators would be part of the assigned officiating crew, rather than employees of the home team. And even more ideally, the clock operator would himself be an official; clock operator would be just one of the positions on that day's crew. I served as a clock operator for several games at the World Lacrosse Championships in 2014. It was a very informative experience, and the sense of really being on the same team as the on-field crew, rather than a home-team staff person who just has to interact with them for that game, was strongly felt by me and by the on-field officials. That's how it should be.
01-13-2019 09:41 AM
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Houston Owl Offline
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Post: #59
RE: MBB at UTEP
I feel fairly certain that all C-USA teams use "precision" timing. The officials on the court each have the ability to start and stop the clock electronically and, I believe, it is the obligation of the official that is the nearest to the player catching an in-bounds pass to start the clock. This is intended to eliminate the delay that results from the official first telling the clock operator to start the clock and then the clock operator actually starting the clock. While it may have been an error by the clock operator, proper technique by the officials would eliminate that possibility. (I really am not sure that there was an error, but it seems unlikely to me that if the rule is that a player can't catch and shoot with 0.3 or less, the play clearly should have taken longer than 0.5).

Tough way to loose.
01-13-2019 10:22 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #60
RE: MBB at UTEP
Is there anything in the CUSA rules that would allow a protest? This really isn’t the kind of thing that should be up for debate. Very easy to time (or count frames) in a replay to see how long it too from touching the ball to release.
01-13-2019 10:49 AM
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