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82hawk Offline
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ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
In case it wasn't clear that this team looks FAR better when we PRESS and play ZONE. I thought it needed its' own thread.

Perhaps we can get the game announcers to weigh in as well?
01-12-2019 03:57 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 03:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  In case it wasn't clear that this team looks FAR better when we PRESS and play ZONE. I thought it needed its' own thread.

Perhaps we can get the game announcers to weigh in as well?

Did they not weigh in enough on that this afternoon? 04-cheers

I was glad they consistently brought it up and Mike V made a point to ask coach McGrath about it in the post game. Coach said switching to that zone "can be scary" when another team is shooting so well. Well... it keeps teams from screening the hell out of our defenders and allows them to close out much quicker. Just look at the production numbers from Drexel today once UNCW switched to the zone. The press allowed our athleticism to put pressure on them AND reduce the time they had to run set offenses by forcing them to use 5-10 seconds of the shot clock just getting the ball across half court.

The thing tonight vs Drexel I was most pleased with was that once it was working we DID NOT switch back to man and allow Drexel back in. That was the recipe for disaster in previous minimal uses of the zone, even when it was effective.
01-12-2019 04:36 PM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 04:36 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 03:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  In case it wasn't clear that this team looks FAR better when we PRESS and play ZONE. I thought it needed its' own thread.

Perhaps we can get the game announcers to weigh in as well?

Did they not weigh in enough on that this afternoon? 04-cheers

I was glad they consistently brought it up and Mike V made a point to ask coach McGrath about it in the post game. Coach said switching to that zone "can be scary" when another team is shooting so well. Well... it keeps teams from screening the hell out of our defenders and allows them to close out much quicker. Just look at the production numbers from Drexel today once UNCW switched to the zone. The press allowed our athleticism to put pressure on them AND reduce the time they had to run set offenses by forcing them to use 5-10 seconds of the shot clock just getting the ball across half court.

The thing tonight vs Drexel I was most pleased with was that once it was working we DID NOT switch back to man and allow Drexel back in. That was the recipe for disaster in previous minimal uses of the zone, even when it was effective.

Can only hope this was the catalyst to continue in the future. I honestly believe we could be 4-0 had we been willing to play "scary" zone and pressing like we did tonight. Don't wait until we get behind, don't wait until the other team gets hot, make it part of our game plan for the first five minutes, the first half, the second half, the end of the game and overtime. Who knows, maybe we could get a nice lead and keep it!

WE LOOK GOOD when we do both!!!! I promise, pressing and playing zone doesn't make you less "manly"....COGS
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2019 04:43 PM by 82hawk.)
01-12-2019 04:42 PM
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bricksnivy Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 03:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  In case it wasn't clear that this team looks FAR better when we PRESS and play ZONE. I thought it needed its' own thread.

Perhaps we can get the game announcers to weigh in as well?

Absolutely no denying how effective it was today. I didn’t see the Delaware game and avoided this place intentionally, but today was a really strong effort (and fun to watch).
01-12-2019 04:42 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 04:42 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 03:57 PM)82hawk Wrote:  In case it wasn't clear that this team looks FAR better when we PRESS and play ZONE. I thought it needed its' own thread.

Perhaps we can get the game announcers to weigh in as well?

Absolutely no denying how effective it was today. I didn’t see the Delaware game and avoided this place intentionally, but today was a really strong effort (and fun to watch).

That stretch in the first half today where Drexel made up ground and took the lead by defending us with a 2-3 zone and shooting effectively from deep against our man defense is what the entire game looked like vs Delaware on Thursday.
01-12-2019 04:45 PM
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bricksnivy Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 04:45 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  That stretch in the first half today where Drexel made up ground and took the lead by defending us with a 2-3 zone and shooting effectively from deep against our man defense is what the entire game looked like vs Delaware on Thursday.

Those two shots from Estime were huge today. Kept us within touch at half. Inside-out offense and mixing up the defense made a huge difference, and then we really started playing with confidence.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2019 04:53 PM by bricksnivy.)
01-12-2019 04:53 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 04:53 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 04:45 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  That stretch in the first half today where Drexel made up ground and took the lead by defending us with a 2-3 zone and shooting effectively from deep against our man defense is what the entire game looked like vs Delaware on Thursday.

Those two shots from Estime were huge today. Kept us within touch at half. Inside-out offense and mixing up the defense made a huge difference, and then we really started playing with confidence.

I REEEEEAAAAALLLY like when Toews drives. Even on his misses he forces the defense to move. When they move, they do so at their own peril because his vision is unmatched out there. He either makes an unbelievable pass or goes to the rack.

Back to the defense and point of this post though, mixing it up on defense reaaaaally seemed to give the fellas some needed confidence as they watched Drexel struggle on offense dealing with the different look.
01-12-2019 05:02 PM
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HAWKING Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 05:02 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 04:53 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  
(01-12-2019 04:45 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  That stretch in the first half today where Drexel made up ground and took the lead by defending us with a 2-3 zone and shooting effectively from deep against our man defense is what the entire game looked like vs Delaware on Thursday.

Those two shots from Estime were huge today. Kept us within touch at half. Inside-out offense and mixing up the defense made a huge difference, and then we really started playing with confidence.

I REEEEEAAAAALLLY like when Toews drives. Even on his misses he forces the defense to move. When they move, they do so at their own peril because his vision is unmatched out there. He either makes an unbelievable pass or goes to the rack.

Back to the defense and point of this post though, mixing it up on defense reaaaaally seemed to give the fellas some needed confidence as they watched Drexel struggle on offense dealing with the different look.

When Toews is driving aggressively to score UNCW can live with his misses or turnovers. Make no mistake. This FRESHMAN assists on almost 46% of the team's points which is 2nd in the country last I checked. Yes it's an unhealthy balance because it means teams that focus on him may tend to shut down the offense but this is the CAA and honestly the record shows that scouting is not exactly ACC caliber.
01-12-2019 11:22 PM
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70shawk Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-12-2019 11:22 PM)HAWKING Wrote:  This FRESHMAN assists on almost 46% of the team's points which is 2nd in the country last I checked. Yes it's an unhealthy balance because it means teams that focus on him may tend to shut down the offense but this is the CAA and honestly the record shows that scouting is not exactly ACC caliber.

Ssssh! You might give people ideas...

Seriously, when UNCW's own announcers have to repeatedly note that other teams have figured out to drain threes against our coaches's preferred defensive schemes- and then almost beg their own coaches on the air to do something different - it's not exactly a sign that we are leaders in the CAA scouting arms race ...
01-13-2019 08:14 AM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
Just rewatched the second half of the Drexel game
We were down 42-40 at the half.

17:52 down 49-45(we gave up 7 points in 2:08) We switch to a press and play zone

Drexel turnover
Drexel foul
Drexel missed 3
Drexel layup
Drexel turnover
Drexel foul
Drexel turnover
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel missed 3(14:20)

13:49 back to man to man + press 59-53(14-4 run while press and zone in 4 minutes and cause 3 TO's)

Drexel layup
Drexel foul
Drexel 3 pointer
Drexel jumper
Drexel missed 3
Drexel turnover
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel turnover
Drexel foul
Drexel missed 3
Drexel foul
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel turnover

8:41 we stop the press and stay m-m 71-58(12-5 run while press and m-m over 5 minutes and cause 3 TO's)


Final 97-83(NO press and NO zone, UNCW 26-25 run over final 8:41 and create ZERO turnovers)

Just looking at the facts:

No press and no zone for 30:49 Drexel 74 UNCW 71 and cause 5 TO's
Press and zone/m-m for 9:11 UNCW 26 Drexel 9 and cause 6 TO's

Although the press helped tremendously overall, regardless of zone or man to man, when we pressed and played zone we were +10 in just four minutes. When we pressed and played man to man we were plus +7 in five minutes. It would not surprise me if we pressed and played zone more in this game than all other games combined. We also scored our most points off turnovers by far this year.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 09:08 AM by 82hawk.)
01-13-2019 08:34 AM
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70shawk Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-13-2019 08:34 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Just rewatched the second half.
We were down 42-40 at the half.

17:52 down 49-45(we gave up 7 points in 2:08) We switch to a press and play zone

Drexel TO
Drexel foul
Drexel missed 3
Drexel layup
Drexel turnover
Drexel foul
Drexel turnover
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel missed 3(14:20)

13:49 back to man to man + press 59-53(14-4 run while press and zone in 4 minutes)

8:41 we stop the press and stay m-m 71-58(12-5 run while press and m-m over 5 minutes)

Final 97-83(NO press and NO zone, UNCW 26-25 run over final 8:41)

Just looking at the facts:

No press and no zone for 30:49 Drexel 74 UNCW 71
Press and zone/m-m for 9:11 UNCW 26 Drexel 9

Although the press helped tremendously overall, regardless of zone or man to man, when we pressed and played zone we were +10 in just four minutes. When we pressed and played man to man we were plus +7 in five minutes. It would not surprise me if we pressed and played zone more in this game than all other games combined.

Thanks for the analytics.

Last season there were situations that just cried for a zone dense to be played, yet seemingly as a matter of principle, Coach McGrath stuck with his man to man. There were a few games that for sure could have been won, but seemed to be sacrificed on the alter of "teachable moments", as in 'the guys have to learn this man to man, and they aren't ever going to learn it if we fall back on the crutch of playing zone...so if letting the other team drive to the basket at will and losing the game we are playing at the moment is the price of making them learn to execute my preferred defensive scheme, so be it.'

The team did get better at playing his defense..but it seems other teams have gotten better at figuring out his defensive as well. So congratulations to Coach McGrath for making the 2nd half changes yesterday. As you have pointed out, however, so far this season his tendency has been to go to different defenses out of desperation, either too late in the game to mount a comeback or early enough to get back into the game and then go right back to the defense that got us into the hole in the first place. Nothing wrong with man to man, but when other teams successfully adjust you have to as well.

IMHO part of being a head coach is seeing the situation on the court as it is, rather than as you wish it would be or thought it would be, and being willing to adapt accordingly. The way UNCW played the 2nd half yesterday, they could beat anyone in the CAA. So this year the CAA Sky is the limit. No reason at all that Coach McGrath can't coach a Championship team this year if he continues do what works rather than what he wishes would work.
01-13-2019 09:17 AM
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82hawk Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-13-2019 09:17 AM)70shawk Wrote:  
(01-13-2019 08:34 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Just rewatched the second half.
We were down 42-40 at the half.

17:52 down 49-45(we gave up 7 points in 2:08) We switch to a press and play zone

Drexel TO
Drexel foul
Drexel missed 3
Drexel layup
Drexel turnover
Drexel foul
Drexel turnover
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel missed 3(14:20)

13:49 back to man to man + press 59-53(14-4 run while press and zone in 4 minutes)

8:41 we stop the press and stay m-m 71-58(12-5 run while press and m-m over 5 minutes)

Final 97-83(NO press and NO zone, UNCW 26-25 run over final 8:41)

Just looking at the facts:

No press and no zone for 30:49 Drexel 74 UNCW 71
Press and zone/m-m for 9:11 UNCW 26 Drexel 9

Although the press helped tremendously overall, regardless of zone or man to man, when we pressed and played zone we were +10 in just four minutes. When we pressed and played man to man we were plus +7 in five minutes. It would not surprise me if we pressed and played zone more in this game than all other games combined.

Thanks for the analytics.

Last season there were situations that just cried for a zone dense to be played, yet seemingly as a matter of principle, Coach McGrath stuck with his man to man. There were a few games that for sure could have been won, but seemed to be sacrificed on the alter of "teachable moments", as in 'the guys have to learn this man to man, and they aren't ever going to learn it if we fall back on the crutch of playing zone...so if letting the other team drive to the basket at will and losing the game we are playing at the moment is the price of making them learn to execute my preferred defensive scheme, so be it.'

The team did get better at playing his defense..but it seems other teams have gotten better at figuring out his defensive as well. So congratulations to Coach McGrath for making the 2nd half changes yesterday. As you have pointed out, however, so far this season his tendency has been to go to different defenses out of desperation, either too late in the game to mount a comeback or early enough to get back into the game and then go right back to the defense that got us into the hole in the first place. Nothing wrong with man to man, but when other teams successfully adjust you have to as well.

IMHO part of being a head coach is seeing the situation on the court as it is, rather than as you wish it would be or thought it would be, and being willing to adapt accordingly. The way UNCW played the 2nd half yesterday, they could beat anyone in the CAA. So this year the CAA Sky is the limit. No reason at all that Coach McGrath can't coach a Championship team this year if he continues do what works rather than what he wishes would work.

Agree 1,000%. We have seen what this team is capable of if COACHED correctly. We have the players to compete with and beat anyone in the CAA. Before, they could operate off the theory that presssing and playing zone wouldn't change anything, we just needed our guys to PLAY HARDER. Well, it isn't theory anymore. We KNOW we play better when we PRESS, even if we play man to man. And we KNOW we can play zone successfully as well.

NO MORE EXCUSES. If we fail to use this successful strategy going forward it's on McGrath.
01-13-2019 09:25 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-13-2019 08:34 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Just rewatched the second half.
We were down 42-40 at the half.

17:52 down 49-45(we gave up 7 points in 2:08) We switch to a press and play zone

Drexel TO
Drexel foul
Drexel missed 3
Drexel layup
Drexel turnover
Drexel foul
Drexel turnover
Drexel missed jumper
Drexel missed 3(14:20)

13:49 back to man to man + press 59-53(14-4 run while press and zone in 4 minutes)

8:41 we stop the press and stay m-m 71-58(12-5 run while press and m-m over 5 minutes)

Final 97-83(NO press and NO zone, UNCW 26-25 run over final 8:41)

Just looking at the facts:

No press and no zone for 30:49 Drexel 74 UNCW 71
Press and zone/m-m for 9:11 UNCW 26 Drexel 9

Although the press helped tremendously overall, regardless of zone or man to man, when we pressed and played zone we were +10 in just four minutes. When we pressed and played man to man we were plus +7 in five minutes. It would not surprise me if we pressed and played zone more in this game than all other games combined.

Technically speaking, you cannot play an effective Zone Defense if your fundamental defensive skills are not solid. That involves basic things like seeing 'ball & man' at all times, communication, 1 v 1 contain, closeouts and of course the most difficult aspect, BOX OUT. Having said that, because so few American teams use Zone defense as a regular staple, opponents tend to take a lot of time to adjust and lose rhythm while settling for CONTESTED shots. The 1-2-2 press in particular is effective because in the most poorly executed cases it will shave at least 4-5 seconds off the shot clock. Zone is a necessary stop gap measure until more fundamental defensive techniques can be improved by the coaching staff.
01-13-2019 11:10 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
SYNERGY Stats after Drexel Game. Giving up 0.958 Points Per Possession in Man to Man. However over 1 PPP in Zone and on the Press. Small sample in terms of possessions since UNCW just recently started using both.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 11:31 AM by HAWKING.)
01-13-2019 11:20 AM
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-13-2019 11:20 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  SYNERGY Stats after Drexel Game. Giving up 0.958 Points Per Possession in Man to Man. However over 1 PPP in Zone and on the Press. Small sample in terms of possessions since UNCW just recently started using both.


The only stats that matter is the differential when we didn't press and played man compared to when we did press and played m-m/zone. As I mentioned, it could be that the press was more important than the zone in the big picture. We also caused more turnovers when we pressed which lead to easier baskets and far more points off turnovers.
01-13-2019 11:47 AM
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
Good coaches switch things up. The chargers being too stubborn playing zone against a team that picks it apart has not given them much of a chance today
01-13-2019 03:31 PM
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-13-2019 11:20 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  SYNERGY Stats after Drexel Game. Giving up 0.958 Points Per Possession in Man to Man. However over 1 PPP in Zone and on the Press. Small sample in terms of possessions since UNCW just recently started using both.

Doesn't make any sense. They scored 4 points in 7 posessions during that 4 minute span.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 04:24 PM by 82hawk.)
01-13-2019 04:23 PM
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-13-2019 04:23 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(01-13-2019 11:20 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  SYNERGY Stats after Drexel Game. Giving up 0.958 Points Per Possession in Man to Man. However over 1 PPP in Zone and on the Press. Small sample in terms of possessions since UNCW just recently started using both.

Doesn't make any sense. They scored 4 points in 7 posessions during that 4 minute span.

Yeah, I'm questioning the math on that too. Just doesn't add up.
01-14-2019 09:06 AM
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
I looked at the game and the Hawks gave up very good looks via the zone too (as EVERY team does) so the "PPP" doesn't really matter here plus not enough data. The zone is not an end all, but can be great as a change of pace unless you're a Syracuse. It was funny that it looked 2/3, but at times resembled a 3/2 due to a wing or 2 really extending out. A hybrid or match up can really work great too and can cause problems.

The full court/3/4 court pressure did help because it changed their rhythm. Sims looks good at the top of that IMHO. It can wear down a team over time and generally energizes the team that's doing it. The most aggressive defensive team seems to win nearly every time.
01-14-2019 10:22 AM
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-14-2019 10:22 AM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  I looked at the game and the Hawks gave up very good looks via the zone too (as EVERY team does) so the "PPP" doesn't really matter here plus not enough data. The zone is not an end all, but can be great as a change of pace unless you're a Syracuse. It was funny that it looked 2/3, but at times resembled a 3/2 due to a wing or 2 really extending out. A hybrid or match up can really work great too and can cause problems.

The full court/3/4 court pressure did help because it changed their rhythm. Sims looks good at the top of that IMHO. It can wear down a team over time and generally energizes the team that's doing it. The most aggressive defensive team seems to win nearly every time.

It was a 2-3, but IMO was effective due to exactly that (the wings extending out). For a zone to be as effective as possible the players HAVE to move and extend as necessary. Too many people think zone is a "lazy man's" defense, without recognizing it takes more talking and movement than most people think. Zones that don't move give up looks. Zones that move disrupt shots and make them difficult. Will it always be 100% effective, of course not. But in our case, it worked against a team that was lighting us up. I'd like to see more of it going forward. We shall see what move coach makes next.
01-14-2019 10:39 AM
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