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dan10 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 01:31 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  He's an example of a coach who the game passed by.

Bruiser was still trying to recruit/coach kids who were big and played the game physically, even as the game was shifting to the more "European" style of free-flowing lanes and perimeter shooting. He wanted games to turn into rock fights, whereas the NCAA wanted high-scoring, fast-paced contests.

It's OK to zig when others are zagging at times, but not when the rules are shifting dramatically in the opposite direction of your preferred style of play. It's adapt or die, and Bruiser quickly became a dinosaur.

I was not trying to change your thread into a Bruiser discussion at all. His infamous quote just fit in too well with that rhetorical question. However, you are correct and incorrect. It has definitely passed him by and he was inflexible towards change. However his biggest downfall beyond that was he was actually recruiting kids that fit the NCAA desired style of play, he just then forced them to conform to his style. I am still a firm believer his '11-'12 team would have gone dancing and won at least a game had he allowed that team to run and play at a fast pace. That team with Frantz Massenat, Chris Fouch, Damion Lee, Samme Givens etc was far too athletic and talented to force into a classic CAA rockfight style.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2019 02:40 PM by dan10.)
01-16-2019 02:26 PM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #42
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
That was a freaking great team Dan!

CG,
There are a TON of people on earth that have never heard or know anything about hoops. That's where I was going with that (as a joke, of course).
01-16-2019 02:32 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Online
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Post: #43
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 02:32 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  That was a freaking great team Dan!

CG,
There are a TON of people on earth that have never heard or know anything about hoops. That's where I was going with that (as a joke, of course).

Don't worry, I took no exception to it and just enjoy all the banter. I'm glad you're back posting somewhat regularly again. Board is better with you around.
01-16-2019 02:54 PM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Online
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Post: #44
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 01:56 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  I'll pick on W&M here for a sec too just for fairness (and since I'm cruel). Shaver is a quality coach, IMO but for whatever reason that school has just been unable to put together a team that can get to the NCAAs. Now, I wouldn't necessarily describe W&M coaching as incompetent but for our sake in recent years when we had high quality teams, I'm appreciative of their inability to create sustainable tournament success.

Academic standards are the biggest impediment to W&M's basketball success over the years. Being the top academic school in the country among public institutions limits your ability to bring in quality talent. They can never bring in JUCO kids, and only rarely do they add D-I transfers except for the Grad Transfer variety.

Since joining the ECAC (later CAA) in 1977, the 5 head coaches prior to Shaver had limited success at W&M:

1) Bruce Parkhill was the first in that group, coaching for 6 years. he went 89-75, and in his final season, he led the Tribe to the NIT....then promptly left to take the Penn State HC gig.

2) Barry Parkhill, Bruce's Assistant Coach, who I can only assume was Bruce's brother (2 years younger), lasted 4 seasons and went 43-68.

3) Chuck Swenson, formerly a Duke assistant, was there for 7 years, and went a dismal 52-115. He then returned to Duke as a DOBO.

4) Charlie Woolum, who had been Bucknell's coach the previous 19 years, went 69-94 at W&M. He did win a CAA regular season title in 1998, however. He's now the radio color commentator for basketball.

5) Rick Boyages then took over after being the top assistant at Ohio State. He went 33-52 over 3 seasons before returning to Ohio St.

So in total, since joining the league, those 5 coaches went 286-341 (.456), with one NIT appearance and one regular season title over 26 seasons. Only one of the 5 previous coaches can be considered a success.

In Shaver's last 15+ seasons at W&M, he's gone 216-258 (.456) with 2 NIT appearances and 1 regular season title. Not really any better than his predecessors overall, but when you look at the last 9 seasons, one can see why W&M supporters are happy to have him. In that span, he has four 20+ win seasons, while his predecessors had two 20+ win seasons over 26 years. And in the past 5 season, the Tribe have finished no lower than 4th in the league.

It's a tough place to win, and Shaver has done as well or better than any coach could hope to do there over a long period of time.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2019 03:07 PM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
01-16-2019 03:05 PM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #45
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
Not working right now due to the shutdown.....so that's why I'm around more. Bummer but enjoying the boards. And, I'm glad to give over the mantle to you now! When/if ECU wins, it's a crap job here as you know!
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2019 03:33 PM by billthebighawksfan.)
01-16-2019 03:33 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Online
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 03:33 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  Not working right now due to the shutdown.....so that's why I'm around more. Bummer but enjoying the boards. And, I'm glad to give over the mantle to you now! When/if ECU wins, it's a crap job here as you know!

My man. I empathize with you. I'm working and not being paid. So, as of right now my real job is quite similar to this job. 03-lmfao

Yes. Here's to beating ezu for the next century to save us all headaches!
01-16-2019 03:55 PM
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Post: #47
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 03:55 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 03:33 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  Not working right now due to the shutdown.....so that's why I'm around more. Bummer but enjoying the boards. And, I'm glad to give over the mantle to you now! When/if ECU wins, it's a crap job here as you know!

My man. I empathize with you. I'm working and not being paid. So, as of right now my real job is quite similar to this job. 03-lmfao

Yes. Here's to beating ezu for the next century to save us all headaches!

CG thank you for your service to our Great Nation. IMO The Coast Guard should fall under the DoD.
01-16-2019 05:49 PM
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Seahawksilver Offline
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Post: #48
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 03:55 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 03:33 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  Not working right now due to the shutdown.....so that's why I'm around more. Bummer but enjoying the boards. And, I'm glad to give over the mantle to you now! When/if ECU wins, it's a crap job here as you know!

My man. I empathize with you. I'm working and not being paid. So, as of right now my real job is quite similar to this job. 03-lmfao

Yes. Here's to beating ezu for the next century to save us all headaches!

CG thank you for your service to our Great Nation. IMO The Coast Guard should fall under the DoD.
01-16-2019 06:09 PM
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CG_Hawk06 Online
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Post: #49
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 06:09 PM)Seahawksilver Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 03:55 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 03:33 PM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  Not working right now due to the shutdown.....so that's why I'm around more. Bummer but enjoying the boards. And, I'm glad to give over the mantle to you now! When/if ECU wins, it's a crap job here as you know!

My man. I empathize with you. I'm working and not being paid. So, as of right now my real job is quite similar to this job. 03-lmfao

Yes. Here's to beating ezu for the next century to save us all headaches!

CG thank you for your service to our Great Nation. IMO The Coast Guard should fall under the DoD.

Appreciate it! I wish we could, but outside of a time of declared war it's not possible due to domestic law enforcement authorities and the Posse Comitatis Act. In unfortunate times like this it would be easier. Struggle only makes us stronger!

But, back to your regular Seahawk programming here! Play some press and zone vs Hofstra and NU please!!!!!
01-16-2019 07:22 PM
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HAWKING Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-14-2019 10:39 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:22 AM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  I looked at the game and the Hawks gave up very good looks via the zone too (as EVERY team does) so the "PPP" doesn't really matter here plus not enough data. The zone is not an end all, but can be great as a change of pace unless you're a Syracuse. It was funny that it looked 2/3, but at times resembled a 3/2 due to a wing or 2 really extending out. A hybrid or match up can really work great too and can cause problems.

The full court/3/4 court pressure did help because it changed their rhythm. Sims looks good at the top of that IMHO. It can wear down a team over time and generally energizes the team that's doing it. The most aggressive defensive team seems to win nearly every time.

It was a 2-3, but IMO was effective due to exactly that (the wings extending out). For a zone to be as effective as possible the players HAVE to move and extend as necessary. Too many people think zone is a "lazy man's" defense, without recognizing it takes more talking and movement than most people think. Zones that don't move give up looks. Zones that move disrupt shots and make them difficult. Will it always be 100% effective, of course not. But in our case, it worked against a team that was lighting us up. I'd like to see more of it going forward. We shall see what move coach makes next.

UNCW is a playing a traditional 2-3 Zone with the following rules:

-Wings extend up only until the top two guards get back into position
-Wings are not supposed to let the ball get to the corner
-Center man guards the High Post Flash but team is willing to give up only that shot.
-When ball is in HP the top two guards drop down and closeout to wing shooters.

It doesn't get any simpler than this fellas. It's all in the execution. IMO they should be running a 3-2 to matchup with shooters on the perimeter in this guard laden league and since the 3pt shot is why they switch to zone in the first place.
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2019 07:26 PM by HAWKING.)
01-16-2019 07:23 PM
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82hawk Online
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Post: #51
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-16-2019 07:23 PM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:39 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:22 AM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  I looked at the game and the Hawks gave up very good looks via the zone too (as EVERY team does) so the "PPP" doesn't really matter here plus not enough data. The zone is not an end all, but can be great as a change of pace unless you're a Syracuse. It was funny that it looked 2/3, but at times resembled a 3/2 due to a wing or 2 really extending out. A hybrid or match up can really work great too and can cause problems.

The full court/3/4 court pressure did help because it changed their rhythm. Sims looks good at the top of that IMHO. It can wear down a team over time and generally energizes the team that's doing it. The most aggressive defensive team seems to win nearly every time.

It was a 2-3, but IMO was effective due to exactly that (the wings extending out). For a zone to be as effective as possible the players HAVE to move and extend as necessary. Too many people think zone is a "lazy man's" defense, without recognizing it takes more talking and movement than most people think. Zones that don't move give up looks. Zones that move disrupt shots and make them difficult. Will it always be 100% effective, of course not. But in our case, it worked against a team that was lighting us up. I'd like to see more of it going forward. We shall see what move coach makes next.

UNCW is a playing a traditional 2-3 Zone with the following rules:

-Wings extend up only until the top two guards get back into position
-Wings are not supposed to let the ball get to the corner
-Center man guards the High Post Flash but team is willing to give up only that shot.
-When ball is in HP the top two guards drop down and closeout to wing shooters.

It doesn't get any simpler than this fellas. It's all in the execution. IMO they should be running a 3-2 to matchup with shooters on the perimeter in this guard laden league and since the 3pt shot is why they switch to zone in the first place.

Agree. A 1-2-2 does the trick as well, and allows double teams at the top to prevent penetration and perimeter ball movement. I actually prefer the 1-2-2 as a zone since it's the most aggressive on the PG. I'm afraid we will run the traditional 2-3, which is the most passive zone and doesn't really stp dribble penetration as well as the others.
01-17-2019 07:09 AM
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Cancin Offline
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Post: #52
Fascinating look at man vs zone by Ken Pomeroy
I'm stealing this from a post on another discussion board. (Post made by Boilrzz on Purdue's rival site).

------------------------------------------------------

https://theathletic.com/767413/2019...zo...dailyemail

If you have a subscription, I'd recommend reading the entire article. But if you don't (or don't want to), here are a few nuggets. The last point is very interesting for some on here to consider.

Percentage of zone possessions by season

Season % Zone
2014 21.1
2015 19.3
2016 20
2017 18.2
2018 16.2
2019 14.6

Teams are playing less zone.

Shooting stats

Team 3PA pct. 3P pct. 2P pct.
Man 35.1 34.2 48.7
Zone 39.6 34.3 49.2

If you guessed that zone teams give up more 3-pointers, give yourself a prize. If you guessed that teams make a higher percentage of their 3s against zone teams, please return said prize. As illustrated above, even though teams take many more 3s against zone teams, 3-point percentage has essentially been identical against both types of defenses. And curiously, 2-point percentage allowed is functionally identical as well. So allowing all of those 3s doesn’t come with the trade-off of better 2-point defense for zone teams.

Team OR pct. TO pct. FT rate
Man 28.8 18.6 35.7
Zone 32.7 20.3 36.9

Not surprisingly, zone teams struggle to keep opponents off the offensive glass. It figures that the lack of a personnel matchup might increase the chance that an opponent can get good position for a rebound. But here’s something positive for the zone teams: They force more turnovers. Curiously, though, they have also sent teams to the free throw line a bit more often.

Adjusted defense (and offense)

Team AdjD AdjO
Man 102.7 105.7
Zone 104.7 102.1

On average, zone teams have given up two more points per 100 possessions than man teams (adjusted for competition). It might make one wonder why a coach would choose to play zone. While the comparison between man and zone teams reveals some things, what’s missing is what the zone teams would look like statistically if they played man.

Team Conf. win pct
Man .547
Zone .501
Mixed .463
While man teams have outperformed zone teams in their respective conferences over the past six seasons, the teams that mix man and zone defenses are worse than both. Having to learn the principles of a man defense is time-consuming, but add the burden of learning some sort of zone and one can imagine a team not mastering either concept. Then consider the problem of finding the necessary time to perfect an offensive system on top of that. All of that learning may be harmful to a team’s ability to win.
01-17-2019 08:09 AM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #53
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
A 2-3 protects lane penetration but shooters light it up. I too like a 3-2 look just for perimeter d. You may see a mix of man,token 3/4 court,and both 2/3and 3/2. Not too complicated but you can give em different looks.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2019 08:12 AM by billthebighawksfan.)
01-17-2019 08:12 AM
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dan10 Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
Those statistics are nice, however the purpose of a zone is what bill just said, mixing it up. The idea is to throw different looks at the opposition to throw them off of their game and see how they adjust to a changing scheme. That effect is more important than just playing one or the other.
01-17-2019 08:48 AM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
That's exactly right Dan. Just think about when you were playing ball and/or coaching and how hard it was to get everybody on the same page. Each zone has a vulnerability. When you can change it up or even have a hybrid look tailored to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses, you're in business.

I have enjoyed seeing the backcourt pressure lately with Sims at the top of that. That looks like something that they can build on in the future and it doesn't allow MOST opponents a chance to really exploit the fact that you are selling out the court to a degree. That's always been the big thing about any type of pressure-can you make them pay? Most can't so that's why it works for the most part. Having a good press break should be high on a coaches list. In UNCW's case (when they go to it and have lately a bit more), it's a way to shorten the clock and change tempo. Any TO that they get right now is gravy.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2019 09:10 AM by billthebighawksfan.)
01-17-2019 09:08 AM
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Seahawkhoops Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-17-2019 07:09 AM)82hawk Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 07:23 PM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:39 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:22 AM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  I looked at the game and the Hawks gave up very good looks via the zone too (as EVERY team does) so the "PPP" doesn't really matter here plus not enough data. The zone is not an end all, but can be great as a change of pace unless you're a Syracuse. It was funny that it looked 2/3, but at times resembled a 3/2 due to a wing or 2 really extending out. A hybrid or match up can really work great too and can cause problems.

The full court/3/4 court pressure did help because it changed their rhythm. Sims looks good at the top of that IMHO. It can wear down a team over time and generally energizes the team that's doing it. The most aggressive defensive team seems to win nearly every time.

It was a 2-3, but IMO was effective due to exactly that (the wings extending out). For a zone to be as effective as possible the players HAVE to move and extend as necessary. Too many people think zone is a "lazy man's" defense, without recognizing it takes more talking and movement than most people think. Zones that don't move give up looks. Zones that move disrupt shots and make them difficult. Will it always be 100% effective, of course not. But in our case, it worked against a team that was lighting us up. I'd like to see more of it going forward. We shall see what move coach makes next.

UNCW is a playing a traditional 2-3 Zone with the following rules:

-Wings extend up only until the top two guards get back into position
-Wings are not supposed to let the ball get to the corner
-Center man guards the High Post Flash but team is willing to give up only that shot.
-When ball is in HP the top two guards drop down and closeout to wing shooters.

It doesn't get any simpler than this fellas. It's all in the execution. IMO they should be running a 3-2 to matchup with shooters on the perimeter in this guard laden league and since the 3pt shot is why they switch to zone in the first place.

I'm afraid we will run the traditional 2-3, which is the most passive zone and doesn't really stp dribble penetration as well as the others.
Hmmmm..... I seem to remember you saying in the Delaware game that we needed to play the zone to stop their penetrat and kick.
05-nono
01-17-2019 12:56 PM
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82hawk Online
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Post: #57
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-17-2019 12:56 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(01-17-2019 07:09 AM)82hawk Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 07:23 PM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:39 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:22 AM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  I looked at the game and the Hawks gave up very good looks via the zone too (as EVERY team does) so the "PPP" doesn't really matter here plus not enough data. The zone is not an end all, but can be great as a change of pace unless you're a Syracuse. It was funny that it looked 2/3, but at times resembled a 3/2 due to a wing or 2 really extending out. A hybrid or match up can really work great too and can cause problems.

The full court/3/4 court pressure did help because it changed their rhythm. Sims looks good at the top of that IMHO. It can wear down a team over time and generally energizes the team that's doing it. The most aggressive defensive team seems to win nearly every time.

It was a 2-3, but IMO was effective due to exactly that (the wings extending out). For a zone to be as effective as possible the players HAVE to move and extend as necessary. Too many people think zone is a "lazy man's" defense, without recognizing it takes more talking and movement than most people think. Zones that don't move give up looks. Zones that move disrupt shots and make them difficult. Will it always be 100% effective, of course not. But in our case, it worked against a team that was lighting us up. I'd like to see more of it going forward. We shall see what move coach makes next.

UNCW is a playing a traditional 2-3 Zone with the following rules:

-Wings extend up only until the top two guards get back into position
-Wings are not supposed to let the ball get to the corner
-Center man guards the High Post Flash but team is willing to give up only that shot.
-When ball is in HP the top two guards drop down and closeout to wing shooters.

It doesn't get any simpler than this fellas. It's all in the execution. IMO they should be running a 3-2 to matchup with shooters on the perimeter in this guard laden league and since the 3pt shot is why they switch to zone in the first place.

I'm afraid we will run the traditional 2-3, which is the most passive zone and doesn't really stp dribble penetration as well as the others.
Hmmmm..... I seem to remember you saying in the Delaware game that we needed to play the zone to stop their penetrat and kick.
05-nono

ANY zone stops dribble penetration better than m-m, that's why coaches usually play zone to begin with. BUT, a 1-2-2 zone basically allows the "1" to harass the PG one on one, while the "2-2" protects the paint, which is why it's BETTER than a 2-3 in stopping penetration. Go back and watch the game. We were getting taken to the hoop m--m non-stop. A 2-3 zone would have slowed that down tremendously. And, the facts provided showed that Delaware struggled against the zone.

Didn't we already beat this horse down???01-lauramac2
01-17-2019 01:06 PM
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Seahawkhoops Offline
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RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
(01-17-2019 01:06 PM)82hawk Wrote:  
(01-17-2019 12:56 PM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(01-17-2019 07:09 AM)82hawk Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 07:23 PM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 10:39 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  It was a 2-3, but IMO was effective due to exactly that (the wings extending out). For a zone to be as effective as possible the players HAVE to move and extend as necessary. Too many people think zone is a "lazy man's" defense, without recognizing it takes more talking and movement than most people think. Zones that don't move give up looks. Zones that move disrupt shots and make them difficult. Will it always be 100% effective, of course not. But in our case, it worked against a team that was lighting us up. I'd like to see more of it going forward. We shall see what move coach makes next.

UNCW is a playing a traditional 2-3 Zone with the following rules:

-Wings extend up only until the top two guards get back into position
-Wings are not supposed to let the ball get to the corner
-Center man guards the High Post Flash but team is willing to give up only that shot.
-When ball is in HP the top two guards drop down and closeout to wing shooters.

It doesn't get any simpler than this fellas. It's all in the execution. IMO they should be running a 3-2 to matchup with shooters on the perimeter in this guard laden league and since the 3pt shot is why they switch to zone in the first place.

I'm afraid we will run the traditional 2-3, which is the most passive zone and doesn't really stp dribble penetration as well as the others.
Hmmmm..... I seem to remember you saying in the Delaware game that we needed to play the zone to stop their penetrat and kick.
05-nono

ANY zone stops dribble penetration better than m-m, that's why coaches usually play zone to begin with. BUT, a 1-2-2 zone basically allows the "1" to harass the PG one on one, while the "2-2" protects the paint, which is why it's BETTER than a 2-3 in stopping penetration. Go back and watch the game. We were getting taken to the hoop m--m non-stop. A 2-3 zone would have slowed that down tremendously. And, the facts provided showed that Delaware struggled against the zone.

Didn't we already beat this horse down???01-lauramac2
The dead horse has been beaten, i just like to call out when you contradict yourself. For the record, there was no discussion back then about a 1-2-2
01-17-2019 01:11 PM
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SEA33HAWK Offline
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Post: #59
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
I wonder if we play certain defenses trying to keep Cacok out of foul trouble. Just a thought. I have no clue.
01-17-2019 01:22 PM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #60
RE: ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS ZONE PRESS
A 2/3 stops paint dribbles. A guard/wing can slash up the other zone but you can defend the 3 a bit better.
01-17-2019 02:26 PM
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