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OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
RULES


- Football only. 3 new Divisions.

- 1A (P5), 1B (G5), 1C (FCS)

- Each Division has a playoff. 1A (8), 1B (8), 1C (16)


Ya with me so far? Yeah you are. Here comes the curve...


- Promotion/Relegation for Division Champions and the corresponding last place team from the nearest conference in the higher division.


For example, North Dakota State switches places with San Jose State from the MWC and I'm assuming UCF switches places with Louisville in the ACC.

Remember, football only.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 02:05 PM by CAJUNNATION.)
01-10-2019 02:01 PM
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TexanMark Online
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
Relegation is a ridiculous concept for college football.
01-10-2019 02:06 PM
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TrueBlueDrew Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 02:06 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Relegation is a ridiculous concept for college football.

Says the Syracuse fan 03-lmfao
01-10-2019 02:31 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 02:31 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 02:06 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Relegation is a ridiculous concept for college football.

Says the Syracuse fan 03-lmfao

He is far from alone in holding that view. Won-Lost records are not the basis on which any schools choose to align themselves with other schools.
01-10-2019 02:49 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 02:06 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Relegation is a ridiculous concept for college football.

Yeah, you have to look more closely at European soccer leagues to understand how harsh relegation is, or how much the fear of relegation drives overspending. Most teams spend outlandish amounts, relative to their actual revenue, just to avoid being one of the three teams in each first division that are relegated each year. There are first division clubs that have gone bankrupt trying to keep up, and others that have been forced to sell (usually to billionaires looking for playtoys) because ownership can't keep losing so much money every year. Some teams that are relegated go into a downward spiral, where good coaches and players bail after relegation and the team drops down another division or two.

So in American college football, you want the bottom three in each league dropping down every year, ok, fine. The bottom is waaaaaaay down there. G5 fans get super excited about the idea of Rutgers or Vandy dropping down, but that's not nearly all of it. For example, a Sun Belt team that hits a rough stretch and keeps finishing in a league's bottom three could drop to FCS, then to Division II, then to Division III, then maybe to NAIA. Try raising money from boosters who were dreaming of replacing Vanderbilt in the SEC that, whoops, you had a few bad years and now you're playing Bluefield and Valley City State on your NAIA schedule. Anyone in a league with a big spender or two, even if it's not in the top division, might have to choose between spending tens of millions like Houston's big booster or dropping down a division and then another and another. Few universities have the money to play that game. Most would walk away from the game altogether. And again, even in European soccer it can seem like it's only appealing to the billionaires who have unlimited resources from their oil fields or crime syndicates or wherever the hell they get their money.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 02:51 PM by Wedge.)
01-10-2019 02:50 PM
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 02:50 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Yeah, you have to look more closely at European soccer leagues to understand how harsh relegation is, or how much the fear of relegation drives overspending. Most teams spend outlandish amounts, relative to their actual revenue, just to avoid being one of the three teams in each first division that are relegated each year. There are first division clubs that have gone bankrupt trying to keep up, and others that have been forced to sell (usually to billionaires looking for playtoys) because ownership can't keep losing so much money every year. Some teams that are relegated go into a downward spiral, where good coaches and players bail after relegation and the team drops down another division or two.

So in American college football, you want the bottom three in each league dropping down every year, ok, fine. The bottom is waaaaaaay down there. G5 fans get super excited about the idea of Rutgers or Vandy dropping down, but that's not nearly all of it. For example, a Sun Belt team that hits a rough stretch and keeps finishing in a league's bottom three could drop to FCS, then to Division II, then to Division III, then maybe to NAIA. Try raising money from boosters who were dreaming of replacing Vanderbilt in the SEC that, whoops, you had a few bad years and now you're playing Bluefield and Valley City State on your NAIA schedule. Anyone in a league with a big spender or two, even if it's not in the top division, might have to choose between spending tens of millions like Houston's big booster or dropping down a division and then another and another. Few universities have the money to play that game. Most would walk away from the game altogether. And again, even in European soccer it can seem like it's only appealing to the billionaires who have unlimited resources from their oil fields or crime syndicates or wherever the hell they get their money.

I'm only talking about 1 school, per Division, per year.

We could tweak things. It could be like if you've been relegated and you win the lower conference championship and the school that had replaced you in the higher conference finishes last, then that Promotion/Relegation is reversed.

Deserving programs from one Division get their shot at glory in the higher Division. Conferences from the higher Division get to drop underperforming programs to the lower Division.

This system ends all of the BS talking points. Settle stuff on the field.

If schools spend themselves into oblivion trying to avoid relegation, that is their problem. Money can't fix stupid.

I think this would be a hoot. An expanded playoff would increase interest at the higher Division and a playoff with promotion on the line at the lower Divisions would be epic.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 03:50 PM by CAJUNNATION.)
01-10-2019 03:49 PM
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Post: #7
RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 02:50 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 02:06 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Relegation is a ridiculous concept for college football.

Yeah, you have to look more closely at European soccer leagues to understand how harsh relegation is, or how much the fear of relegation drives overspending. Most teams spend outlandish amounts, relative to their actual revenue, just to avoid being one of the three teams in each first division that are relegated each year. There are first division clubs that have gone bankrupt trying to keep up, and others that have been forced to sell (usually to billionaires looking for playtoys) because ownership can't keep losing so much money every year. Some teams that are relegated go into a downward spiral, where good coaches and players bail after relegation and the team drops down another division or two.

So in American college football, you want the bottom three in each league dropping down every year, ok, fine. The bottom is waaaaaaay down there. G5 fans get super excited about the idea of Rutgers or Vandy dropping down, but that's not nearly all of it. For example, a Sun Belt team that hits a rough stretch and keeps finishing in a league's bottom three could drop to FCS, then to Division II, then to Division III, then maybe to NAIA. Try raising money from boosters who were dreaming of replacing Vanderbilt in the SEC that, whoops, you had a few bad years and now you're playing Bluefield and Valley City State on your NAIA schedule. Anyone in a league with a big spender or two, even if it's not in the top division, might have to choose between spending tens of millions like Houston's big booster or dropping down a division and then another and another. Few universities have the money to play that game. Most would walk away from the game altogether. And again, even in European soccer it can seem like it's only appealing to the billionaires who have unlimited resources from their oil fields or crime syndicates or wherever the hell they get their money.

In European soccer, rugby, basketball, your buy in is based on the fact that you could be promoted or relegated.

You won't have a forced turnover of players. You may have some free agents you can't reach a deal with but the rules don't require that roughly a fourth of your roster is no longer permitted to be on your roster.

Perfect example is Western Michigan in 2016. They go 13-1 (counting the Cotton Bowl). That team could have been competitive in the Big 10. They went 2-1 vs the Big Ten that season. The next year when they would have been promoted? They went 4-4 in the MAC and one of those wins was 7 overtimes and one was one overtime.

Let's say the bottom team in each division of each conference gets relegated.

2017 relegated teams would have been.
AAC East UConn loses the tiebreaker with ECU and Cincinnati
AAC West Tulsa
ACC Atlantic Syracuse
ACC Coastal UNC
Big Ten East Indiana loses tiebreaker with Maryland
Big Ten West Illinois
B12 Kansas
CUSA East Charlotte
CUSA West UTEP
MAC East Kent State
MAC West Ball State
MWC Mountain New Mexico
MWC West San Jose State loses tiebreaker to Hawaii
P12 North Oregon State
P12 South Colorado
SEC East Tennessee
SEC West Arkansas
Sun Belt Texas State

Now how did this collection do in 2018?
UConn laid an egg, the teams they lost tiebreakers to ended up 3-9 and 11-2
Tulsa stunk again
Syracuse went 10-3
UNC 2-9
Indiana went 5-7 as did the tiebreaker winner Maryland
Illinois improved a bit to 4-8
Kansas did one win better in conference play
Charlotte win 5-7
UTEP 1-11
Kent State went 2-10
Ball State 4-8
New Mexico won 3 but finished with one league win
San Jose went 1-11 but Hawaii won the tiebreaker went 8-6
Oregon State 2-10
Colorado 5-7 but still last in the division
Tennessee 5-7 with 2 league wins
Arkansas 2-10 winless in conference
Texas State 1-7 3-9 overall

The majority of teams would have been also rans at their new level yet most of them are carrying some debt because of their efforts to be competitive.
01-10-2019 04:00 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
[Image: 1381006206064988485.jpg]
01-10-2019 04:08 PM
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 04:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The majority of teams would have been also rans at their new level yet most of them are carrying some debt because of their efforts to be competitive.

I'm talking about 1 school, per Division, per year. I'm also talking about utilizing playoffs that don't exist yet.

Let's assume UCF would have won the 1B Division Playoff. This school would absolutely stick in the ACC. Using my system, they would be replacing Louisville. Consider it karma.

Let's say Boise wins the 1B playoff. They would absolutely stick in the Big-12, saving that conference from the continual embarrassment of Kansas football.

And if the relegated feel besmirched, then win the lower Division.

I'm just sick of all of the "deserving" BS. It's a giant lie.
01-10-2019 04:55 PM
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 04:00 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The majority of teams would have been also rans at their new level yet most of them are carrying some debt because of their efforts to be competitive.

I'm talking about 1 school, per Division, per year. I'm also talking about utilizing playoffs that don't exist yet.

Let's assume UCF would have won the 1B Division Playoff. This school would absolutely stick in the ACC. Using my system, they would be replacing Louisville. Consider it karma.

Let's say Boise wins the 1B playoff. They would absolutely stick in the Big-12, saving that conference from the continual embarrassment of Kansas football.

And if the relegated feel besmirched, then win the lower Division.

I'm just sick of all of the "deserving" BS. It's a giant lie.
01-10-2019 05:00 PM
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Chappy Online
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
In addition to conferences being voluntary associations between schools who want to play each other (okay, so that's not quite true outside of the A5), a big problem with regulation in college sports is that schools lose 20-30% of their roster from year to year, and the players they lose include their most developed players.
01-10-2019 06:11 PM
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TexanMark Online
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-10-2019 02:31 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 02:06 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Relegation is a ridiculous concept for college football.

Says the Syracuse fan 03-lmfao

Dude Syracuse has been playing football at the highest level for over 100 years. Sure they have had bad seasons but relegation is a stupid idea.
01-10-2019 06:45 PM
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TexanMark Online
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
I can tell you if only one team is relegated each year...it wouldn't be from a P5 school

More likely it would rip apart the MAC, Sun Belt, AAC, etc...
01-10-2019 06:53 PM
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
Not gunna happen.
01-10-2019 07:34 PM
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McKinney Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
You can't be relegated if you're not in a conference. Go Independents! 05-stirthepot
01-10-2019 08:46 PM
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otown Online
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
What happens to TV money? What happens if the lowest team is in the PAC and a team like UCF is moving to replace them? I do not see how this can work for all sports and certainly do not see how the TV money would work.
01-11-2019 05:56 AM
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quo vadis Online
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
If there's relegation/promotion, there is no "split" as that process would be a connection between the divisions.

Just another ploy ... 07-coffee3
01-11-2019 07:17 AM
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
Promotion and relegation is fun to talk about, and has been analyzed in a set of articles:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-relegation

While it's fun to discuss on the surface, it will never happen, for reasons discussed above. These are more than merely athletic divisions, but are groupings of associated institutions. The higher up the food chain, the more voluntary the association, but at the end of the day, these are institutional associations.

I'm not a huge soccer fan (outside the World Cup), but I find promotion and relegation entertaining. I like the matches at the end of the season where teams are trying to avoid relegation to a lower league.

In this system, a G5 program could play themselves into a power conference (for a period of time), and a P5 program could find themselves stuck one or two levels lower than their conference peers. Imagine how badly this decade's Kansas would be stuck in lower levels of college football. It's one thing for them to win 4 games in 4 years playing B12 teams, but it's another thing for them to be stuck in the Missouri Valley Football Conference (or even the MIAA), and having to take 5-10 years to dig themselves out.

Promotion and relegation would be great for the casual fan. It would be horrible for the institution and the athletic department.
01-11-2019 10:42 AM
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-11-2019 10:42 AM)johnintx Wrote:  Promotion and relegation is fun to talk about, and has been analyzed in a set of articles:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-relegation

While it's fun to discuss on the surface, it will never happen, for reasons discussed above. These are more than merely athletic divisions, but are groupings of associated institutions. The higher up the food chain, the more voluntary the association, but at the end of the day, these are institutional associations.

I'm not a huge soccer fan (outside the World Cup), but I find promotion and relegation entertaining. I like the matches at the end of the season where teams are trying to avoid relegation to a lower league.

In this system, a G5 program could play themselves into a power conference (for a period of time), and a P5 program could find themselves stuck one or two levels lower than their conference peers. Imagine how badly this decade's Kansas would be stuck in lower levels of college football. It's one thing for them to win 4 games in 4 years playing B12 teams, but it's another thing for them to be stuck in the Missouri Valley Football Conference (or even the MIAA), and having to take 5-10 years to dig themselves out.

Promotion and relegation would be great for the casual fan. It would be horrible for the institution and the athletic department.

In the scenario I mentioned, Kansas would only be relegated to the G5 if the G5 that won their playoff is closest to the footprint of the Big-12 than another conference. Most likely scenario would be trading places with Houston or Memphis in the AAC.

I would add the caveat that if Houston finished last the following season in the Big-12 and Kansas won the AAC, then the teams would switch back. Beyond that, all Kansas would have to do to get back into the Big-12 is win the G5 playoff.

It's funny.

Nobody should have a problem with this plan. Any G5 schools promoted would just get crushed with a P5 conference schedule right? Any P5 school relegated would just cruise through the G5 playoff right?

Right?

Isn't that what all of the talking heads on TV and the P5 fans on the internet have told us repeatedly?

What's the problem?
01-11-2019 12:27 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: OK, y'all wanna split? Let's split...
(01-11-2019 12:27 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-11-2019 10:42 AM)johnintx Wrote:  Promotion and relegation is fun to talk about, and has been analyzed in a set of articles:

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-relegation

While it's fun to discuss on the surface, it will never happen, for reasons discussed above. These are more than merely athletic divisions, but are groupings of associated institutions. The higher up the food chain, the more voluntary the association, but at the end of the day, these are institutional associations.

I'm not a huge soccer fan (outside the World Cup), but I find promotion and relegation entertaining. I like the matches at the end of the season where teams are trying to avoid relegation to a lower league.

In this system, a G5 program could play themselves into a power conference (for a period of time), and a P5 program could find themselves stuck one or two levels lower than their conference peers. Imagine how badly this decade's Kansas would be stuck in lower levels of college football. It's one thing for them to win 4 games in 4 years playing B12 teams, but it's another thing for them to be stuck in the Missouri Valley Football Conference (or even the MIAA), and having to take 5-10 years to dig themselves out.

Promotion and relegation would be great for the casual fan. It would be horrible for the institution and the athletic department.

In the scenario I mentioned, Kansas would only be relegated to the G5 if the G5 that won their playoff is closest to the footprint of the Big-12 than another conference. Most likely scenario would be trading places with Houston or Memphis in the AAC.

I would add the caveat that if Houston finished last the following season in the Big-12 and Kansas won the AAC, then the teams would switch back. Beyond that, all Kansas would have to do to get back into the Big-12 is win the G5 playoff.

It's funny.

Nobody should have a problem with this plan. Any G5 schools promoted would just get crushed with a P5 conference schedule right? Any P5 school relegated would just cruise through the G5 playoff right?

Right?

Isn't that what all of the talking heads on TV and the P5 fans on the internet have told us repeatedly?

What's the problem?

No, it isn't. Maybe that's your problem.
01-11-2019 12:59 PM
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