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Poll: What to do with a slumping shooter?
Keep in the lineup. Let him shoot his way out of the slump.
Bench him. Team can't afford it.
It depends on the personality of the player.
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shooter in a slump
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steves Offline
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Post: #41
RE: shooter in a slump
I think Penny has already stated Brewton comes off the bench ... So this is all message board fodor ... based on the poll of the OP ... hey 87 ?? I have an opinion ... That's all. As stated before ... I believe Tyler Harris is too short to be an effective guard on a top div 1 team. Unless he's hitting his jump shot. He's easy to defend and easy to shoot over or drive past. Just my opinions dudes. I'm usually wrong ... So07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 01:33 PM by steves.)
01-10-2019 01:32 PM
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bubbapt Offline
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Post: #42
RE: shooter in a slump
Look at that. Ball movement and he drains an open three.

Then he tries to force it, and the shot is wide.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2019 09:24 PM by bubbapt.)
01-10-2019 09:22 PM
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bubbapt Offline
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Post: #43
RE: shooter in a slump
Ball movement, open shot, feet set, three points.
01-10-2019 09:52 PM
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PATiger Offline
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Post: #44
RE: shooter in a slump
Not counting tonight's game, Harris is 39.5% from the field and 33.9% from 3pt range.

Alex Lomax is 39.3% from the field and 6.3% from 3pt range.

Statistically, they are two of the three worst shooters on the team. Only David Wingett at 10.0% from the field is worse.
01-10-2019 10:12 PM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #45
RE: shooter in a slump
(01-10-2019 10:12 PM)PATiger Wrote:  Not counting tonight's game, Harris is 39.5% from the field and 33.9% from 3pt range.

Alex Lomax is 39.3% from the field and 6.3% from 3pt range.

Statistically, they are two of the three worst shooters on the team. Only David Wingett at 10.0% from the field is worse.

Yes - I was just looking at the numbers after 16 games.
Harris has taken 123 - 3PT at 34%
Martin has taken 64 - 3PT at 28%

Obviously, going into this season these were considered our two best shooters with many offensive sets keyed to getting them open 3 PT shots.
I'd be curious to know what their %'s are in practice (surely they chart that, right?)
But how many times have we heard announcers say "that wasn't a good shot" when one of these two just flings up a shot after coming across half court without making passes, ball reversal or finding an open shooter first?

Davenport, Brewton, Thornton & Maurice are all shooting better than >40%, with Jones shooting ~38%. Albeit with much less quantity.

I would assume that subjective loyalty to Martin & Harris would have these coaches continue to give these guys the green light. We may live and die by the 3PT with these two guys.

Martin has made only 1 or ZERO 3PT'ers in 12 of 16 games. I would like to trust that he'll find his form, but the trend hasn't really showed that statistically yet.

For Harris, many of us worry that his shot just doesn't translate to D1 level competition. Comparisons with S. Curry are unfair because their games are not even close. Curry is 6'3" and maybe the greatest basketball shooter of all time. We'll be happy if Harris makes the all conference team by his senior year. He really needs to work on his 2PT FG game, offensive shot selection, getting his teammates involved and playmaking. When you listen to Coach Hardaway, I believe he knows and is preaching this.

If you charted Harris' minutes - they've trended down from ~30min/game to ~22 in the last 10 games or so which is reflected in the fact that he's not starting and not coincidentally Jones' minutes have grown from ~15 min/game up to ~23 min/game, along with Jones increases in scoring. Again, this reflects good coaching and the decision to "bench" (i.e. less minutes) a shooter in a slump.
01-11-2019 02:02 AM
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ShilohTiger Offline
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Post: #46
RE: shooter in a slump
(01-11-2019 02:02 AM)ShilohTiger Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 10:12 PM)PATiger Wrote:  Not counting tonight's game, Harris is 39.5% from the field and 33.9% from 3pt range.

Alex Lomax is 39.3% from the field and 6.3% from 3pt range.

Statistically, they are two of the three worst shooters on the team. Only David Wingett at 10.0% from the field is worse.

Yes - I was just looking at the numbers after 16 games.
Harris has taken 123 - 3PT at 34%
Martin has taken 64 - 3PT at 28%

Obviously, going into this season these were considered our two best shooters with many offensive sets keyed to getting them open 3 PT shots.
I'd be curious to know what their %'s are in practice (surely they chart that, right?)
But how many times have we heard announcers say "that wasn't a good shot" when one of these two just flings up a shot after coming across half court without making passes, ball reversal or finding an open shooter first?

Davenport, Brewton, Thornton & Maurice are all shooting better than >40%, with Jones shooting ~38%. Albeit with much less quantity.

I would assume that subjective loyalty to Martin & Harris would have these coaches continue to give these guys the green light. We may live and die by the 3PT with these two guys.

Martin has made only 1 or ZERO 3PT'ers in 12 of 16 games. I would like to trust that he'll find his form, but the trend hasn't really showed that statistically yet.

For Harris, many of us worry that his shot just doesn't translate to D1 level competition. Comparisons with S. Curry are unfair because their games are not even close. Curry is 6'3" and maybe the greatest basketball shooter of all time. We'll be happy if Harris makes the all conference team by his senior year. He really needs to work on his 2PT FG game, offensive shot selection, getting his teammates involved and playmaking. When you listen to Coach Hardaway, I believe he knows and is preaching this.

If you charted Harris' minutes - they've trended down from ~30min/game to ~22 in the last 10 games or so which is reflected in the fact that he's not starting and not coincidentally Jones' minutes have grown from ~15 min/game up to ~23 min/game, along with Jones increases in scoring. Again, this reflects good coaching and the decision to "bench" (i.e. less minutes) a shooter in a slump.

Finally, the word slump is inaccurate in these circumstances. Martin might be in a season long funk, but Harris is just widely inconsistent. Harris is a streaky shooter. He's missed all his 3PT shots in 4 out of 16 games, only 1 - 3PT make in two games and has only three games where he shot better than >41% - 3PT in 16 total games. That's not a slump. In a quarter of his games, he's missed all his 3PT attempts. When he makes shots, he's roughly at ~38% 3PT shooter in college. Not bad, but not a slump, just a low average worse than seven of his teammates.

After all that analysis, I say play him 15-20 minutes a game. If he makes his first shot and is hot, play him more, if not, let him sit until the second half and repeat. Or if he learns how to reverse the ball more often, take smarter 3PT shots, get his 2PT shot going, and involve his teammates more and get better at defense, then let him play more.

I don't know how many times I see small 6' guards shoot right over the top of him on defense and this is a giant liability. This doesn't mean I don't like him as a player. He's an awesome FT shooter and should be in the game when we are ahead and the other team is fouling for sure. I also think he should play all year and get some of his kinks out, but just at reduced minutes, which has already happened. I will be rooting for him for the next 4 years, and would love to see him average 20+ ppg. Maybe he'll get hot in the Conf tourney, and we make the NCAAs.

Now, all that being said, there is a slight statistical anomaly that sticks out on Harris. When he takes double digit 3 PT attempts (>10 3PT/A), his % is >45%. Which means when he is hot (5 games), he shoots more and makes them. Of his ofer games, after the first game of the season where he went 0-6, the other two games he only had 3 attempts. Of the one-for games, the two that stand out are the Tennessee game (1-9) and Houston (1-5), but we can probably assume since they were big games, he kept shooting because we needed his scoring, but truthfully we lost those games no matter how well Harris shoots. So he has adjusted his attempts when his shot isn't falling. Which maybe after all the analysis means, that the player and the coach already know what they are doing...

By the way, I'm loving the new stat links.
https://gotigersgo.com/cumestats.aspx?path=mbball&
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2019 02:33 AM by ShilohTiger.)
01-11-2019 02:12 AM
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MtownTigers916 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: shooter in a slump
I wish there was a stat on how many points other teams score on Harris misses. When he misses a 3, the other team gets a long rebound without a set defense and with nothing between them and the basket but an undersized guard. I really noticed this last night.

I know it’s a basketball cliche, but our defense is so much better off of makes when we can set up. Our offense is also so much better off of misses when we can score in transition.
01-11-2019 08:09 AM
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steves Offline
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Post: #48
RE: shooter in a slump
F stats ... Use the eye test. Watch him play ... He did better coming off the bench last night ...
01-11-2019 08:50 AM
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #49
RE: shooter in a slump
(01-11-2019 02:02 AM)ShilohTiger Wrote:  
(01-10-2019 10:12 PM)PATiger Wrote:  Not counting tonight's game, Harris is 39.5% from the field and 33.9% from 3pt range.

Alex Lomax is 39.3% from the field and 6.3% from 3pt range.

Statistically, they are two of the three worst shooters on the team. Only David Wingett at 10.0% from the field is worse.

Yes - I was just looking at the numbers after 16 games.
Harris has taken 123 - 3PT at 34%
Martin has taken 64 - 3PT at 28%

Obviously, going into this season these were considered our two best shooters with many offensive sets keyed to getting them open 3 PT shots.
I'd be curious to know what their %'s are in practice (surely they chart that, right?)
But how many times have we heard announcers say "that wasn't a good shot" when one of these two just flings up a shot after coming across half court without making passes, ball reversal or finding an open shooter first?

Davenport, Brewton, Thornton & Maurice are all shooting better than >40%, with Jones shooting ~38%. Albeit with much less quantity.

I would assume that subjective loyalty to Martin & Harris would have these coaches continue to give these guys the green light. We may live and die by the 3PT with these two guys.

Martin has made only 1 or ZERO 3PT'ers in 12 of 16 games. I would like to trust that he'll find his form, but the trend hasn't really showed that statistically yet.

For Harris, many of us worry that his shot just doesn't translate to D1 level competition. Comparisons with S. Curry are unfair because their games are not even close. Curry is 6'3" and maybe the greatest basketball shooter of all time. We'll be happy if Harris makes the all conference team by his senior year. He really needs to work on his 2PT FG game, offensive shot selection, getting his teammates involved and playmaking. When you listen to Coach Hardaway, I believe he knows and is preaching this.

If you charted Harris' minutes - they've trended down from ~30min/game to ~22 in the last 10 games or so which is reflected in the fact that he's not starting and not coincidentally Jones' minutes have grown from ~15 min/game up to ~23 min/game, along with Jones increases in scoring. Again, this reflects good coaching and the decision to "bench" (i.e. less minutes) a shooter in a slump.

I really do not get the idea that his "shot will not translate". He is a true freshman and averaging 13.6 ppg and scored 20 or more in almost 1/3 of his career games (5/16). He is a freshman and hit a wall, most do. It is smart for Penny to lower his minutes while he works through it but the idea that this is going to be a career long struggle seems a bit dramatic at this point. The kid has proven he can play and score at an extremely high level in D1 basketball.

Also, the idea that he does not get his teammates involved is a fallacy. Assists per game:

Martin - 3.8
Alo - 3.31
Brewton - 2.4
Harris - 2.3
Jones - 2.3

Considering his primary job is that of a scorer and being more or less tied for 3rd in assists behind our senior PG and a pass first PG tells me he is a willing passer.
01-11-2019 09:01 AM
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #50
RE: shooter in a slump
(01-11-2019 08:50 AM)steves Wrote:  F stats ... Use the eye test. Watch him play ... He did better coming off the bench last night ...

Again in a bubble and short term thinking... He has had 7 games with the same or higher scoring outputs already this year than last night... What about those as a starter?

I guess I do not get fan expectations. We are talking about a 5'7" true freshman that has scored 16 or more points in 8 of his first 16 games and 14 or more in 10 out of 16... That is nothing short of phenomenal considering his size and class ranking.

He is currently streaky and his bad games are bad but he has many more good games and he is a true freshman, what were you all expecting?
01-11-2019 09:05 AM
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uskjtc02 Away
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Post: #51
RE: shooter in a slump
Tyler is a freshmen with plenty to learn. His shooting and decision making will get better as his career continues. Patients my fellow Tiger fans.
01-11-2019 09:33 AM
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cscottl1981 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: shooter in a slump
People know Tyler can shoot so you have to guard him out well past the 3 point line. He’d make shorter, open 3s all day so even if he’s not hitting a super high percentage from deep, he still opens up the court for himself and teammates.
01-11-2019 09:37 AM
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