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The Wall won’t work
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jaredf29 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 12:44 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:39 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:34 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:17 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:00 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Let me know when illegal immigrants have air strikes and precision artillery dumb***.

Yes cause that’s what al Qaeda and insurgents do in Iraq right? Talk about something you have one iota of knowledge please. You’re too stupid to understand you’re stupid. If it’s a national security issue, you’d better address it like one.

OK moron....let me know when they are launching illegals over the border with rockets and mortars or using them to breach the walls already in place in San Diego, El Paso, and elsewhere. You know...the walls that drastically decreased illegal entries already.

And I'm all in favor of treating border security as a national security issue. Put machine gun nests in towers and employ snipers and kill everyone who crosses the border illicitly if they don't immediately surrender.

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about and cartels do fire into our country with heavy grade military weapons. They have built sophisticated tunnels with air pumps and electricity. Is it really that far fetched for them to use breaching tools? You know how easy it to construct a bomb right?
Like I originally said, you’d be better off mining the entire thing and saving a ton of money and man power

Strange....I've yet to read about an illegal alien launched over the border.

or any of them using a bomb to breach the existing walls you are conveniently ignoring in your ignorant posts.

After reading your post it’s easy to see why you’d think a wall would work.
01-08-2019 01:24 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 11:30 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:18 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:53 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

lol. A wall is more effective than the current red carpet. 100% guaranteed. As for Patton, when the illegal aliens are driving tanks and carrying Bagalore torpedoes we can start being concerned about the ineffectiveness of fixed positions. The physical barrier makes it much harder and more time consuming to cross, giving the current man power a better opportunity to discover and interdict the illegal entry. It works everywhere its tried. Why some people think its suddenly going to be worthless---I have no idea. The White House is surrounded by a physical barrier. If it didnt help, it wouldnt be there.

I agree with Jared's points. This is analogous to the War on Drugs if you think about it. The War on Drugs was primarily focused on killing the supply. That's the wrong tactic. We need to focus on the demand side of the equation. We need to extremely painful to American citizens to engage in any commerce with illegal immigrants. Do that and then the illegals will find nothing here for them to come to. Then they stop coming - or at least it makes a significant dent in illegal immigration.

Let's be clear about border security. It's not primarily focused on stopping terrorists. It's about stopping illegal immigration and narcotics from pouring into the country.

The war on drugs made new federal laws that locked up users for years and years. With a 500 percent increase in incarceration since it was started.

The federal incarceration was fairly steady till Nixon started the war on drugs. Reagan's war on drugs increased those rates

[Image: _VfaPq9P-k6k4sLob2hv2zloi8eeqN5CrNyugJom...w1NpYmeSez]

Be that as it may, more resources still went into controlling supply and that hasn't made a serious dent into the U.S.'s desire to "self medicate"...

https://www.cfr.org/blog/demand-side-pol...-war-drugs

The analogy works only when we talk about the supply vs demand dynamic and which is the primary driver. Does demand result in supply or does supply result in demand. Normally, you have to have demand for something before supply can be established. While wrt to drugs the demand side tactics should be more nuanced and not exclusively heavy handed due to the addiction issues, I've yet to hear of anyone becoming "addicted" to illegal aliens. You can - and should - use much heavier tactics to reduce demand for illegal immigration.
01-08-2019 01:25 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #63
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 07:35 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:13 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Just curious...

Why do we have walls around prisons?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I would guess that the answer to your question is one of scale. Walling in a 50-acre prison compound is an entirely different thing than walling off a 2,000-mile border.

Jared is right. The wall is not an effective solution.

What we instead need is the resolve to put a stop to any giveaways to non-citizens. Our taxpayers are NOT responsible for the feeding, clothing, housing, education and healthcare of the millions unfortunate enough to have been born elsewhere and not otherwise eligible to legally immigrate. (If Bette Midler wants to take responsibility for lifting up others, she is welcome to do so - - with HER money.)

Stop the irresponsible plundering of the American taxpayer, close the publicly funded schools, hospitals and breadlines to all but actual citizens, and the illegal hordes will (to revive a weasly Romney term) self-deport.

Will it happen instantly? No. But in the long run it will be far more effective than the simplistic Trump approach.

Uhhhhh,


Most unfortunately, you are basically wrong.

The fence jumpers land on American soil we ARE "responsible" for their housing, education, clothing, food, childcare, flip-flops, hair curlers an likely cable bills.

Show me where I'm wrong. please.

If walls don't work... then what's the objection? In 5 years we'll tear it down and sell it for scrap. 5bb is a nickel in this insanity today, so let's roll the dice and see?

Methinks the biggest objection is that it may well work, then where will all the "compassionate" leftists (those defecating and littering the streets of our city's) and the Chamber of Commerce fools, go to hide?

We've taken faaaaaaaar bigger risks than 5bb before (Solyndra, Govt motors, etc., anyone?) so if a physical barrier doesn't somehow work, we tear it down.

Taking ALL bets on it working. When hasn't it? As the open borders crowd leftists like to say, a 4th century solution...

Uhhhh, yea. Cause it's work for 1600 years. Tell me where and when it hasn't.

Thx. 07-coffee3
01-08-2019 01:32 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #64
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 08:40 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:13 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Just curious...

Why do we have walls around prisons?

That’s your logic? They don’t allow prisoners to have ladders, tools, and prisons generally speaking aren’t 2000 miles long or wide.

Lol.

But aren't we championing "technology" in this fight against the fence jumpers as well?

That's your logic? We put up a wall, a fence, a physical barrier then say "Good day, Sir. You're on your own"?

Errrrrr, no? So what's your solution to this drain on our citizens allowing an influx of a city's population the size of Atlanta each year?

Utter insanity. National suicide.
01-08-2019 01:45 AM
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jaredf29 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 01:45 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 08:40 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:13 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Just curious...

Why do we have walls around prisons?

That’s your logic? They don’t allow prisoners to have ladders, tools, and prisons generally speaking aren’t 2000 miles long or wide.

Lol.

But aren't we championing "technology" in this fight against the fence jumpers as well?

That's your logic? We put up a wall, a fence, a physical barrier then say "Good day, Sir. You're on your own"?

Errrrrr, no? So what's your solution to this drain on our citizens allowing an influx of a city's population the size of Atlanta each year?

Utter insanity. National suicide.

Cool there are currently 20k BP agents, we could just have 20 per mile. I’m sure that’ll keep everyone out.
01-08-2019 01:51 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #66
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 10:38 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:35 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:14 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:55 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Hungary proves that border walls/fences work

Go back and reread.

Didn't see anything about Hungary. I did see someone mention Israel which is another solid example of walls/fences working.

Your only substantive point is that cartels and criminals can find ways around a wall/fence so we shouldn't have way. Basically, you seem to be arguing that even if something is 99% effective or even just somewhat effective, we shouldn't bother with it because someone can defeat it on some level. A completely open border surely isn't the answer.

I prefer the Israeli and Hungary approach, i.e. walls and fencing with a strong border patrol force.

Neither Hungary nor Israel have a 2000 mile border, but it has not stopped Palestinians from tunneling in nor has it stopped border violence.

Stopped it?

Likely not,

Has is reduced it? By how much?

Likely well worth the pittance the socialists are b!tching about. They wanna take everyone else's money, why not a few shekels for this?
01-08-2019 01:56 AM
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jaredf29 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 01:56 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:38 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:35 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:14 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:55 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Hungary proves that border walls/fences work

Go back and reread.

Didn't see anything about Hungary. I did see someone mention Israel which is another solid example of walls/fences working.

Your only substantive point is that cartels and criminals can find ways around a wall/fence so we shouldn't have way. Basically, you seem to be arguing that even if something is 99% effective or even just somewhat effective, we shouldn't bother with it because someone can defeat it on some level. A completely open border surely isn't the answer.

I prefer the Israeli and Hungary approach, i.e. walls and fencing with a strong border patrol force.

Neither Hungary nor Israel have a 2000 mile border, but it has not stopped Palestinians from tunneling in nor has it stopped border violence.

Stopped it?

Likely not,

Has is reduced it? By how much?

Likely well worth the pittance the socialists are b!tching about. They wanna take everyone else's money, why not a few shekels for this?

You literally used a socialist state as your example. Just crazy. People underestimate the will of a determined human being
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2019 02:04 AM by jaredf29.)
01-08-2019 02:02 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #68
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 11:18 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:53 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

lol. A wall is more effective than the current red carpet. 100% guaranteed. As for Patton, when the illegal aliens are driving tanks and carrying Bagalore torpedoes we can start being concerned about the ineffectiveness of fixed positions. The physical barrier makes it much harder and more time consuming to cross, giving the current man power a better opportunity to discover and interdict the illegal entry. It works everywhere its tried. Why some people think its suddenly going to be worthless---I have no idea. The White House is surrounded by a physical barrier. If it didnt help, it wouldnt be there.

I agree with Jared's points. This is analogous to the War on Drugs if you think about it. The War on Drugs was primarily focused on killing the supply. That's the wrong tactic. We need to focus on the demand side of the equation. We need to extremely painful to American citizens to engage in any commerce with illegal immigrants. Do that and then the illegals will find nothing here for them to come to. Then they stop coming - or at least it makes a significant dent in illegal immigration.

Let's be clear about border security. It's not primarily focused on stopping terrorists. It's about stopping illegal immigration and narcotics from pouring into the country.

Not really.

It's the US Gov't and various States that will make them whole whether they have illegal jobs or not. Just look around. Two trips to the local DMV and I was one of only 3-4 honkey's in the entire crowded place. These tain't generations old taxpaying citizens neither, more than once someone had to be summoned to come translate or decipher WTF was being discussed. And they weren't Lithuanians.

You plant a foot or a kid on US soil, the welcome mat is unrolled. Complete lunacy.
01-08-2019 02:08 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #69
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 11:28 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 08:51 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:43 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  Yall are wasting your time. Give me 3 examples in which a wall does not work is the question you ask.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DLVdi14ECCc

They just walk across everywhere else. Nothing works 100% of the time. If you plan it well and only do it once, the chances are very good you can rob a bank and get away with it...once. Using the exception doesnt disprove the rule. Bama lost to ULM one year---I wound place my bets based on that data point,

I’m not saying $ shouldn’t be spent on border security. Hire more agents, build barrier funnels, more drones, more sensors, more rapid response, catch and deport as opposed to release. A wall is not a feasible nor financially responsible nor effective solution.

You cant be everywhere at once. You need a barrier to slow them down and limit the number of illegals coming across. Your arguments simply lack common sense. The measures you want are already in place. If they worked---we wouldnt be facing the illegal population issues we have. You've got to have a physical barrier. In some places, the topography and natural terrain will function as a barrier---but where it does not---you need a wall. That said, Miko33 is right. You need to change the US laws as well to make it much harder to make your way illegally once you get to the US. If the illegals see its almost impossible to build a life as an illegal in the US---the vast majority of immigrants will stop coming in illegally and begin to utilize the traditional legal pathway to immigration.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2019 03:10 AM by Attackcoog.)
01-08-2019 03:07 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #70
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 02:08 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:18 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 10:53 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

lol. A wall is more effective than the current red carpet. 100% guaranteed. As for Patton, when the illegal aliens are driving tanks and carrying Bagalore torpedoes we can start being concerned about the ineffectiveness of fixed positions. The physical barrier makes it much harder and more time consuming to cross, giving the current man power a better opportunity to discover and interdict the illegal entry. It works everywhere its tried. Why some people think its suddenly going to be worthless---I have no idea. The White House is surrounded by a physical barrier. If it didnt help, it wouldnt be there.

I agree with Jared's points. This is analogous to the War on Drugs if you think about it. The War on Drugs was primarily focused on killing the supply. That's the wrong tactic. We need to focus on the demand side of the equation. We need to extremely painful to American citizens to engage in any commerce with illegal immigrants. Do that and then the illegals will find nothing here for them to come to. Then they stop coming - or at least it makes a significant dent in illegal immigration.

Let's be clear about border security. It's not primarily focused on stopping terrorists. It's about stopping illegal immigration and narcotics from pouring into the country.

Not really.

It's the US Gov't and various States that will make them whole whether they have illegal jobs or not. Just look around. Two trips to the local DMV and I was one of only 3-4 honkey's in the entire crowded place. These tain't generations old taxpaying citizens neither, more than once someone had to be summoned to come translate or decipher WTF was being discussed. And they weren't Lithuanians.

You plant a foot or a kid on US soil, the welcome mat is unrolled. Complete lunacy.

The governments also need to make a 180 on how they handle illegals currently as well by cutting them off from all services if no proof of citizenship can be provided. I agree with that.
01-08-2019 06:49 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #71
RE: The Wall won’t work
Of course walls work.... and where we have them... they work now. To the OP...Patton's comment was about walls are ineffective against invading military forces not border jumpers. Im personally more in favor of eliminating ALL incentives for illegals to come here in the first place..but..it to say that a wall would not work is silly.
01-08-2019 06:51 AM
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AdoptedMonarch Offline
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Post: #72
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 01:32 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:35 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:13 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Just curious...

Why do we have walls around prisons?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I would guess that the answer to your question is one of scale. Walling in a 50-acre prison compound is an entirely different thing than walling off a 2,000-mile border.

Jared is right. The wall is not an effective solution.

What we instead need is the resolve to put a stop to any giveaways to non-citizens. Our taxpayers are NOT responsible for the feeding, clothing, housing, education and healthcare of the millions unfortunate enough to have been born elsewhere and not otherwise eligible to legally immigrate. (If Bette Midler wants to take responsibility for lifting up others, she is welcome to do so - - with HER money.)

Stop the irresponsible plundering of the American taxpayer, close the publicly funded schools, hospitals and breadlines to all but actual citizens, and the illegal hordes will (to revive a weasly Romney term) self-deport.

Will it happen instantly? No. But in the long run it will be far more effective than the simplistic Trump approach.

Uhhhhh,


Most unfortunately, you are basically wrong.

The fence jumpers land on American soil we ARE "responsible" for their housing, education, clothing, food, childcare, flip-flops, hair curlers an likely cable bills.

Show me where I'm wrong. please.

If walls don't work... then what's the objection? In 5 years we'll tear it down and sell it for scrap. 5bb is a nickel in this insanity today, so let's roll the dice and see?

Methinks the biggest objection is that it may well work, then where will all the "compassionate" leftists (those defecating and littering the streets of our city's) and the Chamber of Commerce fools, go to hide?

We've taken faaaaaaaar bigger risks than 5bb before (Solyndra, Govt motors, etc., anyone?) so if a physical barrier doesn't somehow work, we tear it down.

Taking ALL bets on it working. When hasn't it? As the open borders crowd leftists like to say, a 4th century solution...

Uhhhh, yea. Cause it's work for 1600 years. Tell me where and when it hasn't.

Thx. 07-coffee3

I do not have a strong objection to the wall. Build the wall. Don't build the wall. I don't much care. What I object to is the shallow thinking on both sides of the issue -- but mostly now from our president and his followers. He has framed the wall as the focal point of the immigration debate, and in doing so has allowed the much larger problems to fade into the background.

Sometimes simplistic thinking is helpful. "Lock her up" was an effective way of cutting through all of the Clinton nuance and pointing out that at the core she is a criminal. Donald Trump is at his most effective when simplicity is called for.

But this is not one of those times. A wall, however constructed, is going to have an inconsequential effect on our national security. Fine, build it. As you point out, it is not even close to the most wasteful thing that our government has squandered money on. But the problem is that President Trump has so narrowly defined the issue that it will, in my view, only make things worse.

President Obama was a disaster when it came to the immigration problem because he wanted to use it as a political wedge. But at least he knew what he was doing. Donald Trump does not.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2019 08:02 AM by AdoptedMonarch.)
01-08-2019 08:00 AM
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UTSAMarineVet09 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 07:44 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Worlds of difference between warfare and border security. Anybody who doesn't see that is either partisan, stupid, or likely both.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read the OP
01-08-2019 08:26 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #74
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 08:26 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:44 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Worlds of difference between warfare and border security. Anybody who doesn't see that is either partisan, stupid, or likely both.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read the OP

It's 100% partisan considering some of the same folks vehemently against this wall supported a wall in 2006. Simple TDS is all this is.
01-08-2019 08:47 AM
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EverRespect Online
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Post: #75
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Well that is the worst case scenario... that the wall will not work. The dems are gambling that their voters are willing and able to forgo their paychecks because the wall might not work. This probably won't end well. 07-coffee3
01-08-2019 08:48 AM
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jaredf29 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 03:07 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:28 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:11 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 08:51 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:43 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  Yall are wasting your time. Give me 3 examples in which a wall does not work is the question you ask.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DLVdi14ECCc

They just walk across everywhere else. Nothing works 100% of the time. If you plan it well and only do it once, the chances are very good you can rob a bank and get away with it...once. Using the exception doesnt disprove the rule. Bama lost to ULM one year---I wound place my bets based on that data point,

I’m not saying $ shouldn’t be spent on border security. Hire more agents, build barrier funnels, more drones, more sensors, more rapid response, catch and deport as opposed to release. A wall is not a feasible nor financially responsible nor effective solution.

You cant be everywhere at once. You need a barrier to slow them down and limit the number of illegals coming across. Your arguments simply lack common sense. The measures you want are already in place. If they worked---we wouldnt be facing the illegal population issues we have. You've got to have a physical barrier. In some places, the topography and natural terrain will function as a barrier---but where it does not---you need a wall. That said, Miko33 is right. You need to change the US laws as well to make it much harder to make your way illegally once you get to the US. If the illegals see its almost impossible to build a life as an illegal in the US---the vast majority of immigrants will stop coming in illegally and begin to utilize the traditional legal pathway to immigration.

I agree. However, the idea of some Great Wall is just a nonsense simple minded answer though.
01-08-2019 10:06 AM
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jaredf29 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 08:26 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:44 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Worlds of difference between warfare and border security. Anybody who doesn't see that is either partisan, stupid, or likely both.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read the OP

Really? So when when the administration uses words like; invasion, national security, cartel violence, and terrorism, you don’t think that suggests warfare? Maybe I was suggesting the more nuanced approach that determined human beings won’t be deterred by a simple obstacle.
01-08-2019 10:19 AM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #78
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-07-2019 07:35 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:13 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Just curious...

Why do we have walls around prisons?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I would guess that the answer to your question is one of scale. Walling in a 50-acre prison compound is an entirely different thing than walling off a 2,000-mile border.

Jared is right. The wall is not an effective solution.

What we instead need is the resolve to put a stop to any giveaways to non-citizens. Our taxpayers are NOT responsible for the feeding, clothing, housing, education and healthcare of the millions unfortunate enough to have been born elsewhere and not otherwise eligible to legally immigrate. (If Bette Midler wants to take responsibility for lifting up others, she is welcome to do so - - with HER money.)

Stop the irresponsible plundering of the American taxpayer, close the publicly funded schools, hospitals and breadlines to all but actual citizens, and the illegal hordes will (to revive a weasly Romney term) self-deport.

Will it happen instantly? No. But in the long run it will be far more effective than the simplistic Trump approach.

Jared is wrong. The Border Patrol agents are right.

But I do agree with ending benefits to illegals.

I also support the Arizona plan implemented under Gov. Brewer a few years back. That plan targets employers who employ illegals.

1st Offense: You lose your business license for 1 year.
2nd Offense: You lose your business license permanently.

You will NOT be able to do business in Arizona - period.

Funny thing happened once that law was implemented -- it seems illegals self-deported themselves out of Arizona to neighboring states.

And people say we can't deport all these illegals who are already here and would have to grant amnesty.
01-08-2019 10:53 AM
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Eagleaidaholic Offline
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Post: #79
RE: The Wall won’t work
There is only 1200+miles of border currently with no wall and a portion of that doesn't need any barrier and there are natural barriers.
Wall IS being built currently.
01-08-2019 11:07 AM
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pcm0103 Offline
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Post: #80
RE: The Wall won’t work
(01-08-2019 08:00 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  
(01-08-2019 01:32 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:35 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:13 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 07:10 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  Idc where you fall on border security, putting a wall up won’t stop anything. Physical barriers can easily be overcome and are ineffective. The only surefire way to seal an open border would be to mine it but I doubt private land owners would like that.

Patton suggested that fortifications were monuments to the stupidity of man.

Just curious...

Why do we have walls around prisons?

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I would guess that the answer to your question is one of scale. Walling in a 50-acre prison compound is an entirely different thing than walling off a 2,000-mile border.

Jared is right. The wall is not an effective solution.

What we instead need is the resolve to put a stop to any giveaways to non-citizens. Our taxpayers are NOT responsible for the feeding, clothing, housing, education and healthcare of the millions unfortunate enough to have been born elsewhere and not otherwise eligible to legally immigrate. (If Bette Midler wants to take responsibility for lifting up others, she is welcome to do so - - with HER money.)

Stop the irresponsible plundering of the American taxpayer, close the publicly funded schools, hospitals and breadlines to all but actual citizens, and the illegal hordes will (to revive a weasly Romney term) self-deport.

Will it happen instantly? No. But in the long run it will be far more effective than the simplistic Trump approach.

Uhhhhh,


Most unfortunately, you are basically wrong.

The fence jumpers land on American soil we ARE "responsible" for their housing, education, clothing, food, childcare, flip-flops, hair curlers an likely cable bills.

Show me where I'm wrong. please.

If walls don't work... then what's the objection? In 5 years we'll tear it down and sell it for scrap. 5bb is a nickel in this insanity today, so let's roll the dice and see?

Methinks the biggest objection is that it may well work, then where will all the "compassionate" leftists (those defecating and littering the streets of our city's) and the Chamber of Commerce fools, go to hide?

We've taken faaaaaaaar bigger risks than 5bb before (Solyndra, Govt motors, etc., anyone?) so if a physical barrier doesn't somehow work, we tear it down.

Taking ALL bets on it working. When hasn't it? As the open borders crowd leftists like to say, a 4th century solution...

Uhhhh, yea. Cause it's work for 1600 years. Tell me where and when it hasn't.

Thx. 07-coffee3

I do not have a strong objection to the wall. Build the wall. Don't build the wall. I don't much care. What I object to is the shallow thinking on both sides of the issue -- but mostly now from our president and his followers. He has framed the wall as the focal point of the immigration debate, and in doing so has allowed the much larger problems to fade into the background.

Sometimes simplistic thinking is helpful. "Lock her up" was an effective way of cutting through all of the Clinton nuance and pointing out that at the core she is a criminal. Donald Trump is at his most effective when simplicity is called for.

But this is not one of those times. A wall, however constructed, is going to have an inconsequential effect on our national security. Fine, build it. As you point out, it is not even close to the most wasteful thing that our government has squandered money on. But the problem is that President Trump has so narrowly defined the issue that it will, in my view, only make things worse.

President Obama was a disaster when it came to the immigration problem because he wanted to use it as a political wedge. But at least he knew what he was doing. Donald Trump does not.

Your post makes a lot sense.
01-08-2019 11:20 AM
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