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ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
Notre Dame can totally be independent.

But Notre Dame(or any independent) can not get any benefits of being in a conference(the 13th non Hawaii game).

Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.....
01-07-2019 12:06 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 09:45 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think ND needs to shut up and join a conference.

How about being forced to instead? Don't even give them an option.
01-07-2019 12:07 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 12:07 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:45 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think ND needs to shut up and join a conference.

How about being forced to instead? Don't even give them an option.

I don't care if they're in a conference or not (there are other independents) but there's no reason to make up special rules for them.
01-07-2019 12:18 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #44
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I would change the rule to allow any school that does not have access to a CCG to play a 13th game. By access, I mean only that they can compete for that opportunity, even if they are unsuccessful. That might induce some conferences, like CUSA, to split into smaller, more geograhically approriate leagues that don't have a CCG (which isn't very lucrative in their case anyway). Other leagues, like the Belt, might also opt to forego a CCG instead of a 13th game for all its members.

Instead of 14 or more schools all splitting the paltry revenues of a CCG that only two teams get to play in, each school could get the financial benefit of an additional game without extending the regular season at all.
01-07-2019 12:46 PM
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Post: #45
ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
After Notre Dame’s performance, they should play their 12 games or shut up and win a conference.


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01-07-2019 12:57 PM
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panite Offline
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
ND can join a conference (not happening at this time), play Hawaii at Hawaii every year, get the NCAA to allow and independent championship game or just play 12 games like the other conferences. Didn't Alabama and Ohio State get in the final 4 without playing in their respective Championship Games. They signed the contract- they should honor it. It worked out or them this year just like it worked for the SEC and the B-10. If they want more data points, play a stronger schedule against the top of the P5 Conferences. 05-stirthepot 05-stirthepot 05-stirthepot
01-07-2019 01:41 PM
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Exclamation RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-06-2019 08:25 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  Then every school would be allowed a 13th. You would have a set of flexible games on championship Saturday and maybe start matching some of your 3rd and 4th place teams up. I'm guessing that would turn out worse for ND because their options would be limited to the independents.

I thought the 13th game was a Bowl Game.

If the NCAA allows this requests, that destroys the argument about the players playing to many games permanently. It also will help ND get an extra boost for playoff consideration. It is a way of killing any CFP expansion to 8 teams negotiations.
01-07-2019 01:56 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 09:44 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  It goes without saying, but Notre Dame will not be forced to join a conference. Notre Dame provides incredible value as an independent. Forcing them to join the ACC would be forcing them to lose their value playing a national schedule (which is better for the NCAA for popularity reasons). As long as there is a conceivable pathway for ND to earn a playoff spot (much like this season), then there really is no problem with the current landscape. It would be akin to forcing the SEC to relinquish their FCS buy-games, which offer tremendous value as additional home games for revenue, in favor of equal home/away games with other conferences. You cannot force a program, which already has established and considerable value, to give that up because it better aligns the structural system. Not all programs are created equal, as shown in college football.

I will say, however, that since Notre Dame (and others) choose to remain independent, they should not be given special privileges to have an additional 13th game in order to compete against teams that have a conference championship opportunity. Doing so would open up Pandora's Box and allow all schools not in a CCG to schedule a 13th game during that open week as well, which would (conceivably) take away the platforms of the Conference Championships.

Notre Dame has absolutely zero value as an independent to anyone other than Notre Dame. I think their independence isn't really of value to them either, but that's hard to quantify.
01-07-2019 01:56 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 11:36 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 06:33 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 01:15 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 12:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  FBS will get to 13 across the board. CCG will be gravy among the most deserving.

What I don’t get is how some CCG autonomy measures were able to get through, like the Big 12’s petition, but not the ACC’s. A logical next step in setting up access to a thirteenth game away from the current conference constraints, which, allowable with round robin and below twelve members, but not back to a large single line or other configuration for those at or above twelve?

The access point is being tested. ND is right to test it. Had to wonder if what the ACC proposed for CCG determination was a way to bridge ND to it, too. ND’s not alone in wanting a thirteenth game; in company with at least the B1G and PAC with that one.


B1G with help from the SEC and PAC didn't like the ACC rule change because Delany thought it too vague. Swofford in his own words:

Swofford told ESPN on Thursday that moving to three divisions is "not something we're discussing at all at this point. It just isn't."

"Our purpose behind initiating that discussion was really not about anything specific we would necessarily do, but based on the whole deregulation of a number of NCAA issues in recent years," Swofford told ESPN. "We said over and over again that doesn't mean we would necessarily change anything within our own league.

"We just feel conferences should have the opportunity to do that both in terms of the number of teams in a league and whether you can have a championship as well as how you determine which teams play in that championship game.


Delany was against the vagueness because he didn't want the comparisons between conferences to be too dissimilar. At first Delany was insisting that if the number were lowered to 10 from 12, the B12 should still split up in two divisions, to look the same as the others. Then some had to tell him that they play 9 conference games already so everyone plays everyone.

My own feeling, as I stated way back when was that a small part of Delany believed this was Swofford's "tricky way" of somehow making ND eligible for the ACCCG, since the conference could decide to divide into three divisions, play all four teams in your division and then the two highest rated division leaders would meet in the ACCCG.

Not sure why he felt that the presidents/ADs of the full members of the conference would ever allow for that. But when it comes to ND, Delany can be weird.

Cheers,
Neil

I felt the same way about the ACC’s intentions. For a twofer, no less, with figuring out a way to get ND into ACC championship eligibility (and de facto football membership) and for the semi-final; getting to fourteen games.

Delany is an annoying gatekeeper. Ironically, though, thirteen games is something the B1G and ND were for. But, I guess the Big Ten must have a say in all FBS functions.

Again, as an outsider looking in and as simply a fan of college athletics, that viewpoint may seem plausible. Let's carry this out to its logical conclusion. The ACC would have 15 teams, 5 teams in each division. Each team not named ND plays both the four other members of their division as well as two teams each from the other two divisions. Think the teams in the other two divisions aren't going to complain and gripe about that? Also think about the optics to power brokers and media from outside the conference and how their view of the ACC will be colored by this "favoritism" toward ND. Right now the vast majority of the vitriol (where it exists) is pointed directly at ND, with this maneuver the ACC would get a nearly equal share of it as well. Those are just two of the negatives.

Let's talk about the positives ND has brought to ACC football. Cycling through two games with the Irish every six years has helped in terms of ratings, exposure (especially for those from the Coastal who don't get to play FSU and Clemson annually), attendance at those home games, etc. These are the reasons why the ACC fought to get 5 instead of 4 games from ND and fought to ensure that they would play everyone in the conference. Three divisions and giving ND 4 annual opponents and one other team from the other two divisions to get to 5 games honors the words of the agreement between ND and the ACC but not its spirit. It would take 20 years for the other 10 teams to get an ND home and away game, more than three times what it takes now for 10 of those teams.

I believe that if Swofford recommended to the ACC presidents this action, they would call for his head on a platter. But that is just me. Oh WAIT! Maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all?

I keed, I keed.

Cheers,
Neil

The ACC could simply put ND in a 7 team division, require them to play all 6 and only count division games for the division title. Maybe even flip them between divisions every couple of years so everyone gets to play them (couple others would have to flip also). ND is sometimes playing 6 ACC games now. Others could play cross-division games that don't count in the standings. The ACC doesn't need to do anything exotic like 3 divisions.
01-07-2019 02:00 PM
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Post: #50
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-06-2019 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Or, the committee could just consider only each team's W-L record vs. FBS teams, similar to the basketball committee only considering a team's games vs. D-I teams.

That way, almost every CCG participant would have 12 games including the CCG considered, which would be the same number of games as Notre Dame and every other team that doesn't play FCS opponents.

However, quite a few FBS squads are of FCS quality. At least, their competitiveness doesn't demonstrate otherwise even when you account for that fact they have additional scholarships. Even the delineation between FBS and FCS is vague as both are considered Division 1.

In other words, there's too much subjectivity.

The rule regarding CCGs applies only to conferences rather than to individual schools. The vast majority of schools don't get the opportunity to have a 13th data point. So the onus falls back on Notre Dame. If they want to have a 13th data point then they can either play Hawaii or join a conference. I'm sure Hawaii would accommodate. I'm sure any conference would love to have them at that.

The real question is this...if Notre Dame decided to plan an FCS squad every year then would it be counted against them if they went 12-0? I doubt it. I think most people knew they weren't a top 4 team this season, but the decision makers didn't care because it's Notre Dame and there was no chance ND was getting left out of the playoffs if an argument could be made for their inclusion.
01-07-2019 02:10 PM
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Post: #51
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 02:10 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The real question is this...if Notre Dame decided to plan an FCS squad every year then would it be counted against them if they went 12-0? I doubt it.

Unlike SEC programs, Notre Dame does not schedule FCS teams. 07-coffee3
01-07-2019 02:36 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 02:36 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 02:10 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The real question is this...if Notre Dame decided to plan an FCS squad every year then would it be counted against them if they went 12-0? I doubt it.

Unlike SEC programs, Notre Dame does not schedule FCS teams. 07-coffee3

And that's their choice so what do they have to complain about?
01-07-2019 02:42 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #53
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 02:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:36 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 06:33 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 01:15 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 12:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  FBS will get to 13 across the board. CCG will be gravy among the most deserving.

What I don’t get is how some CCG autonomy measures were able to get through, like the Big 12’s petition, but not the ACC’s. A logical next step in setting up access to a thirteenth game away from the current conference constraints, which, allowable with round robin and below twelve members, but not back to a large single line or other configuration for those at or above twelve?

The access point is being tested. ND is right to test it. Had to wonder if what the ACC proposed for CCG determination was a way to bridge ND to it, too. ND’s not alone in wanting a thirteenth game; in company with at least the B1G and PAC with that one.


B1G with help from the SEC and PAC didn't like the ACC rule change because Delany thought it too vague. Swofford in his own words:

Swofford told ESPN on Thursday that moving to three divisions is "not something we're discussing at all at this point. It just isn't."

"Our purpose behind initiating that discussion was really not about anything specific we would necessarily do, but based on the whole deregulation of a number of NCAA issues in recent years," Swofford told ESPN. "We said over and over again that doesn't mean we would necessarily change anything within our own league.

"We just feel conferences should have the opportunity to do that both in terms of the number of teams in a league and whether you can have a championship as well as how you determine which teams play in that championship game.


Delany was against the vagueness because he didn't want the comparisons between conferences to be too dissimilar. At first Delany was insisting that if the number were lowered to 10 from 12, the B12 should still split up in two divisions, to look the same as the others. Then some had to tell him that they play 9 conference games already so everyone plays everyone.

My own feeling, as I stated way back when was that a small part of Delany believed this was Swofford's "tricky way" of somehow making ND eligible for the ACCCG, since the conference could decide to divide into three divisions, play all four teams in your division and then the two highest rated division leaders would meet in the ACCCG.

Not sure why he felt that the presidents/ADs of the full members of the conference would ever allow for that. But when it comes to ND, Delany can be weird.

Cheers,
Neil

I felt the same way about the ACC’s intentions. For a twofer, no less, with figuring out a way to get ND into ACC championship eligibility (and de facto football membership) and for the semi-final; getting to fourteen games.

Delany is an annoying gatekeeper. Ironically, though, thirteen games is something the B1G and ND were for. But, I guess the Big Ten must have a say in all FBS functions.

Again, as an outsider looking in and as simply a fan of college athletics, that viewpoint may seem plausible. Let's carry this out to its logical conclusion. The ACC would have 15 teams, 5 teams in each division. Each team not named ND plays both the four other members of their division as well as two teams each from the other two divisions. Think the teams in the other two divisions aren't going to complain and gripe about that? Also think about the optics to power brokers and media from outside the conference and how their view of the ACC will be colored by this "favoritism" toward ND. Right now the vast majority of the vitriol (where it exists) is pointed directly at ND, with this maneuver the ACC would get a nearly equal share of it as well. Those are just two of the negatives.

Let's talk about the positives ND has brought to ACC football. Cycling through two games with the Irish every six years has helped in terms of ratings, exposure (especially for those from the Coastal who don't get to play FSU and Clemson annually), attendance at those home games, etc. These are the reasons why the ACC fought to get 5 instead of 4 games from ND and fought to ensure that they would play everyone in the conference. Three divisions and giving ND 4 annual opponents and one other team from the other two divisions to get to 5 games honors the words of the agreement between ND and the ACC but not its spirit. It would take 20 years for the other 10 teams to get an ND home and away game, more than three times what it takes now for 10 of those teams.

I believe that if Swofford recommended to the ACC presidents this action, they would call for his head on a platter. But that is just me. Oh WAIT! Maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all?

I keed, I keed.

Cheers,
Neil

The ACC could simply put ND in a 7 team division, require them to play all 6 and only count division games for the division title. Maybe even flip them between divisions every couple of years so everyone gets to play them (couple others would have to flip also). ND is sometimes playing 6 ACC games now. Others could play cross-division games that don't count in the standings. The ACC doesn't need to do anything exotic like 3 divisions.

They could do that, but the point of my post was to keep things basically to what ND has already agreed to - 5 games annually against the ACC. And yes the first two years had ND facing 4 and then 6 due to what ND had already on the books at that time. Every year since has had five and the games through 2037 (yes, that is not a typo through 2037) have already been mapped out.

Cheers,
Neil
01-07-2019 02:55 PM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #54
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
Conferences suck. I hope ND wins their appeal. If I wanted cookie cutter arrangements, then I'd watch the NFL.

The 13th game doesn't hurt anyone, and it provides more revenue for ND plus one FBS opponent. It's a win-win.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 03:01 PM by oliveandblue.)
01-07-2019 03:00 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 12:07 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 09:45 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  I think ND needs to shut up and join a conference.

How about being forced to instead? Don't even give them an option.

Forcing someone to join a voluntary organization is an interesting proposition.
01-07-2019 03:13 PM
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TerryD Offline
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 02:55 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 02:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:36 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 06:33 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 01:15 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  B1G with help from the SEC and PAC didn't like the ACC rule change because Delany thought it too vague. Swofford in his own words:

Swofford told ESPN on Thursday that moving to three divisions is "not something we're discussing at all at this point. It just isn't."

"Our purpose behind initiating that discussion was really not about anything specific we would necessarily do, but based on the whole deregulation of a number of NCAA issues in recent years," Swofford told ESPN. "We said over and over again that doesn't mean we would necessarily change anything within our own league.

"We just feel conferences should have the opportunity to do that both in terms of the number of teams in a league and whether you can have a championship as well as how you determine which teams play in that championship game.


Delany was against the vagueness because he didn't want the comparisons between conferences to be too dissimilar. At first Delany was insisting that if the number were lowered to 10 from 12, the B12 should still split up in two divisions, to look the same as the others. Then some had to tell him that they play 9 conference games already so everyone plays everyone.

My own feeling, as I stated way back when was that a small part of Delany believed this was Swofford's "tricky way" of somehow making ND eligible for the ACCCG, since the conference could decide to divide into three divisions, play all four teams in your division and then the two highest rated division leaders would meet in the ACCCG.

Not sure why he felt that the presidents/ADs of the full members of the conference would ever allow for that. But when it comes to ND, Delany can be weird.

Cheers,
Neil

I felt the same way about the ACC’s intentions. For a twofer, no less, with figuring out a way to get ND into ACC championship eligibility (and de facto football membership) and for the semi-final; getting to fourteen games.

Delany is an annoying gatekeeper. Ironically, though, thirteen games is something the B1G and ND were for. But, I guess the Big Ten must have a say in all FBS functions.

Again, as an outsider looking in and as simply a fan of college athletics, that viewpoint may seem plausible. Let's carry this out to its logical conclusion. The ACC would have 15 teams, 5 teams in each division. Each team not named ND plays both the four other members of their division as well as two teams each from the other two divisions. Think the teams in the other two divisions aren't going to complain and gripe about that? Also think about the optics to power brokers and media from outside the conference and how their view of the ACC will be colored by this "favoritism" toward ND. Right now the vast majority of the vitriol (where it exists) is pointed directly at ND, with this maneuver the ACC would get a nearly equal share of it as well. Those are just two of the negatives.

Let's talk about the positives ND has brought to ACC football. Cycling through two games with the Irish every six years has helped in terms of ratings, exposure (especially for those from the Coastal who don't get to play FSU and Clemson annually), attendance at those home games, etc. These are the reasons why the ACC fought to get 5 instead of 4 games from ND and fought to ensure that they would play everyone in the conference. Three divisions and giving ND 4 annual opponents and one other team from the other two divisions to get to 5 games honors the words of the agreement between ND and the ACC but not its spirit. It would take 20 years for the other 10 teams to get an ND home and away game, more than three times what it takes now for 10 of those teams.

I believe that if Swofford recommended to the ACC presidents this action, they would call for his head on a platter. But that is just me. Oh WAIT! Maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all?

I keed, I keed.

Cheers,
Neil

The ACC could simply put ND in a 7 team division, require them to play all 6 and only count division games for the division title. Maybe even flip them between divisions every couple of years so everyone gets to play them (couple others would have to flip also). ND is sometimes playing 6 ACC games now. Others could play cross-division games that don't count in the standings. The ACC doesn't need to do anything exotic like 3 divisions.

They could do that, but the point of my post was to keep things basically to what ND has already agreed to - 5 games annually against the ACC. And yes the first two years had ND facing 4 and then 6 due to what ND had already on the books at that time. Every year since has had five and the games through 2037 (yes, that is not a typo through 2037) have already been mapped out.

Cheers,
Neil

ND doesn't want any of this. It doesn't want to join the ACC in football or be eligible for the ACC championship game.
01-07-2019 03:13 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 02:10 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-06-2019 09:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Or, the committee could just consider only each team's W-L record vs. FBS teams, similar to the basketball committee only considering a team's games vs. D-I teams.

That way, almost every CCG participant would have 12 games including the CCG considered, which would be the same number of games as Notre Dame and every other team that doesn't play FCS opponents.

However, quite a few FBS squads are of FCS quality. At least, their competitiveness doesn't demonstrate otherwise even when you account for that fact they have additional scholarships.

Playing a random FCS team is not even close to playing a random FBS team.

Let's look at Sagarin ratings, because he combines FBS and FCS teams in one ranking.

If you're saying that some FBS teams are at or below the quality of the median FCS team -- no, they're not. More than half of FCS is below the lowest-ranked FBS team in Sagarin's ranking. Only 10 percent of FCS is at or above the very lowest-ranked P5 team.

If you're saying that playing FCS teams that are as good as many FBS teams should count... maybe an FBS team playing NDSU or EWU can make that argument, but almost no one else can. Very few FBS teams schedule the best FCS teams. Nobody in FBS scheduled NDSU this season. Alabama's FCS opponent this year was The Citadel, who wasn't anywhere near the best FCS teams and, according to Sagarin, was as good or better as only the 7 worst FBS teams.
01-07-2019 03:20 PM
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Post: #58
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
If they can get UCONN on board with the Indy move like it's been rumored, all they need is to find one more team for a Indy conference championship.

I'm sure they can find a taker in the FCS ranks that's willing to make the move.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 04:42 PM by LUbball23.)
01-07-2019 04:41 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I just read the article in the OP and I don't believe ND is asking to be allowed to schedule a 13th game. I think it was simply an off the cuff response from the AD - probably to the question "Why should ND be given access to the playoff when they did not play in a conference championship game and take the risk of losing 1 more game against a quality opponent"?
01-07-2019 04:50 PM
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 04:50 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I just read the article in the OP and I don't believe ND is asking to be allowed to schedule a 13th game. I think it was simply an off the cuff response from the AD - probably to the question "Why should ND be given access to the playoff when they did not play in a conference championship game and take the risk of losing 1 more game against a quality opponent"?

When I first read the title of this thread I thought that is what I would find as well, but I think the article clearly shows it's something that Swarbrick has considered in seriousness if unlikely to bring about since it says:

Swarbrick said he has spoken to NCAA officials about it "a little bit" but acknowledged the difficulty in changing a rule that impacts the majority of its membership...

"What interest does everyone else have in supporting that legislation?" he said. "Are you writing it so that it says if you are an independent ineligible for a conference championship you can play a 13th game? Is it discretionary that anyone not in a conference championship can play a 13th game? So it's hard to get the legislative support for that.


No reason to mention his actually speaking to NCCA officials about it or give the reasons why it wouldn't be supported. That's my take anyway. I don't think he's too worried about it, just some idea he may have entertained momentarily.

Cheers,
Neil
01-07-2019 05:24 PM
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