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ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
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Jjoey52 Offline
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Post: #21
ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
Better yet, make ND join a conference, then they cannot hand pick every game.


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01-07-2019 01:11 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #22
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 12:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  FBS will get to 13 across the board. CCG will be gravy among the most deserving.

What I don’t get is how some CCG autonomy measures were able to get through, like the Big 12’s petition, but not the ACC’s. A logical next step in setting up access to a thirteenth game away from the current conference constraints, which, allowable with round robin and below twelve members, but not back to a large single line or other configuration for those at or above twelve?

The access point is being tested. ND is right to test it. Had to wonder if what the ACC proposed for CCG determination was a way to bridge ND to it, too. ND’s not alone in wanting a thirteenth game; in company with at least the B1G and PAC with that one.


B1G with help from the SEC and PAC didn't like the ACC rule change because Delany thought it too vague. Swofford in his own words:

Swofford told ESPN on Thursday that moving to three divisions is "not something we're discussing at all at this point. It just isn't."

"Our purpose behind initiating that discussion was really not about anything specific we would necessarily do, but based on the whole deregulation of a number of NCAA issues in recent years," Swofford told ESPN. "We said over and over again that doesn't mean we would necessarily change anything within our own league.

"We just feel conferences should have the opportunity to do that both in terms of the number of teams in a league and whether you can have a championship as well as how you determine which teams play in that championship game.


Delany was against the vagueness because he didn't want the comparisons between conferences to be too dissimilar. At first Delany was insisting that if the number were lowered to 10 from 12, the B12 should still split up in two divisions, to look the same as the others. Then some had to tell him that they play 9 conference games already so everyone plays everyone.

My own feeling, as I stated way back when was that a small part of Delany believed this was Swofford's "tricky way" of somehow making ND eligible for the ACCCG, since the conference could decide to divide into three divisions, play all four teams in your division and then the two highest rated division leaders would meet in the ACCCG.

Not sure why he felt that the presidents/ADs of the full members of the conference would ever allow for that. But when it comes to ND, Delany can be weird.

Cheers,
Neil
01-07-2019 01:15 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #23
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 01:15 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 12:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  FBS will get to 13 across the board. CCG will be gravy among the most deserving.

What I don’t get is how some CCG autonomy measures were able to get through, like the Big 12’s petition, but not the ACC’s. A logical next step in setting up access to a thirteenth game away from the current conference constraints, which, allowable with round robin and below twelve members, but not back to a large single line or other configuration for those at or above twelve?

The access point is being tested. ND is right to test it. Had to wonder if what the ACC proposed for CCG determination was a way to bridge ND to it, too. ND’s not alone in wanting a thirteenth game; in company with at least the B1G and PAC with that one.


B1G with help from the SEC and PAC didn't like the ACC rule change because Delany thought it too vague. Swofford in his own words:

Swofford told ESPN on Thursday that moving to three divisions is "not something we're discussing at all at this point. It just isn't."

"Our purpose behind initiating that discussion was really not about anything specific we would necessarily do, but based on the whole deregulation of a number of NCAA issues in recent years," Swofford told ESPN. "We said over and over again that doesn't mean we would necessarily change anything within our own league.

"We just feel conferences should have the opportunity to do that both in terms of the number of teams in a league and whether you can have a championship as well as how you determine which teams play in that championship game.


Delany was against the vagueness because he didn't want the comparisons between conferences to be too dissimilar. At first Delany was insisting that if the number were lowered to 10 from 12, the B12 should still split up in two divisions, to look the same as the others. Then some had to tell him that they play 9 conference games already so everyone plays everyone.

My own feeling, as I stated way back when was that a small part of Delany believed this was Swofford's "tricky way" of somehow making ND eligible for the ACCCG, since the conference could decide to divide into three divisions, play all four teams in your division and then the two highest rated division leaders would meet in the ACCCG.

Not sure why he felt that the presidents/ADs of the full members of the conference would ever allow for that. But when it comes to ND, Delany can be weird.

Cheers,
Neil

I felt the same way about the ACC’s intentions. For a twofer, no less, with figuring out a way to get ND into ACC championship eligibility (and de facto football membership) and for the semi-final; getting to fourteen games.

Delany is an annoying gatekeeper. Ironically, though, thirteen games is something the B1G and ND were for. But, I guess the Big Ten must have a say in all FBS functions.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 06:36 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-07-2019 06:33 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #24
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I have no idea what the ACC was planning, but even I didn't like the vagueness of the proposal, TBH. Why not just say "no more divisions required"? I think that would've passed.
01-07-2019 08:22 AM
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Huskypride Offline
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Post: #25
ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-06-2019 07:59 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...lowed-ncaa

Think this is the most insane request ND has ever made. They need to choose either join a conference or know as an independent they need to go 12-0 and that may no longer be enough. Can't imagine any conference would vote for this.
"


In my opinion, Notre Dame should be required to join a conference... to be eligible for playoffs. They should have to play a top 15 team in the conference championship game like everyone else in the p5. It worked back in the day, but when the ccg has so much impact on the playoffs. It's unfair that Notre Dame doesn't have to play the extra game.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 09:04 PM by Huskypride.)
01-07-2019 08:55 AM
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goofus Offline
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Post: #26
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
With the Big Ten now discussing the idea of eliminating divisions and having the 2 best teams make the CCG, it does invite an opportunity for Notre Dame to play in the ACC CCG depending on what rules they agree to.

If they just change the rules to something like the following, then Notre Dame would probably join the ACC in football.

For a conference to have a CCG:

1. Conference must have a minimum of 10 football members.
2. If conference is split into 2 divisions, all members in a division must play each other, and play all teams in the conference on a scheduled rotation.
3. If conference does not have divisions, All members must play each other at least once every 3 years.
4. Each member must play a minimum of 5 conference games each year.
01-07-2019 09:29 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
It goes without saying, but Notre Dame will not be forced to join a conference. Notre Dame provides incredible value as an independent. Forcing them to join the ACC would be forcing them to lose their value playing a national schedule (which is better for the NCAA for popularity reasons). As long as there is a conceivable pathway for ND to earn a playoff spot (much like this season), then there really is no problem with the current landscape. It would be akin to forcing the SEC to relinquish their FCS buy-games, which offer tremendous value as additional home games for revenue, in favor of equal home/away games with other conferences. You cannot force a program, which already has established and considerable value, to give that up because it better aligns the structural system. Not all programs are created equal, as shown in college football.

I will say, however, that since Notre Dame (and others) choose to remain independent, they should not be given special privileges to have an additional 13th game in order to compete against teams that have a conference championship opportunity. Doing so would open up Pandora's Box and allow all schools not in a CCG to schedule a 13th game during that open week as well, which would (conceivably) take away the platforms of the Conference Championships.
01-07-2019 09:44 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I think ND needs to shut up and join a conference.
01-07-2019 09:45 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #29
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
Can't they just schedule Hawaii?
01-07-2019 09:46 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 01:05 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  I don't have a problem with independent teams being allowed a 13th game (allowed to play on Week 0 in August or Championship weekend). Rules in NCAA have never really favored independent schools so I think this would be a helpful rule.

I agree that this should be for all independents, not just Notre Dame. I'm not sure it would help schools like Liberty or New Mexico State or UMass get an extra home game. But maybe they get another chance for a bodybag game (where they are the body) or a second FCS opponent. I actually would welcome a larger pool of independents than we have now, and wouldn't mind helping them out financially. Right now, they don't get as big a share of CFP money as teams in a conference do. Maybe if the NCAA allows this, part of the deal is that ND doesn't get the special revenue deal from the CFP that they have now. Their additional home game would more than cover the loss of that revenue.

Anyway, I think it's an interesting conversation starter.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 09:52 AM by ken d.)
01-07-2019 09:49 AM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I think people have put way too much weight on a 13th game with the national title discussions. Winning 12 or 13 games in and of itself isnt necessarily better. Instead just compare the top games/whole schedule.

Somewhat leery of this idea if just a blanket 13 game, but could work if done right. Rule would have to simply say an independent can schedule on a game championship weekend provided they finish the previous week either with at least 10 wins or in the top 15 (or something along those lines). They could schedule vs. another independent or anyone else who would agree to the game.

The teams who would probably agree last minute would be teams who would need a boost tp get to a NY6 bowl so teams in the mid teens ranking wise.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 10:06 AM by ohio1317.)
01-07-2019 10:04 AM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #32
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I agree. All CFP contenders should have a 13th game...in the form of the first round of the playoff.

Instead of #2 Clemson versus unranked Pitt and #6 Ohio St. against #21 Northwestern in fairly insignificant conference championship games (from the perspective of the national playoff), we could have seen #6 Ohio St. v. #3 Notre Dame and #2 Clemson v. # 7 UCF as knock-out games - winners advance to the semifinals. (along with #1 Alabama v. #8 Washington and #4 Georgia v. #5 Oklahoma).
01-07-2019 11:08 AM
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Shox Offline
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Post: #33
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
I would be okay with this as well. All it does is allow Independents to schedule big games in week 0, leave an open daTe at the end of the season to schedule a team who lost a game due to weather, or lastly schedule a fellow Independent during championship weekend. Notre Dame vs BYU would be a fun game. The obvious fear is that Notre Dame will basterdize this and try to schedule 8 home games to maximize profits. It might make sense to limit home games to 7 to keep them reigned in.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 11:16 AM by Shox.)
01-07-2019 11:08 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #34
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 09:44 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  It goes without saying, but Notre Dame will not be forced to join a conference. Notre Dame provides incredible value as an independent. Forcing them to join the ACC would be forcing them to lose their value playing a national schedule (which is better for the NCAA for popularity reasons). As long as there is a conceivable pathway for ND to earn a playoff spot (much like this season), then there really is no problem with the current landscape. It would be akin to forcing the SEC to relinquish their FCS buy-games, which offer tremendous value as additional home games for revenue, in favor of equal home/away games with other conferences. You cannot force a program, which already has established and considerable value, to give that up because it better aligns the structural system. Not all programs are created equal, as shown in college football.

I will say, however, that since Notre Dame (and others) choose to remain independent, they should not be given special privileges to have an additional 13th game in order to compete against teams that have a conference championship opportunity. Doing so would open up Pandora's Box and allow all schools not in a CCG to schedule a 13th game during that open week as well, which would (conceivably) take away the platforms of the Conference Championships.

I don't think that Swarbrick has any illusions that this would pass.

I instead think that this is just his way of illustrating that "the 13th data point" is not that significant if it includes an FCS game.
01-07-2019 11:14 AM
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Scoochpooch1 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-06-2019 08:04 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't have a problem with it.

I don't understand the demand that they join a conference.

I don't understand how people don't understand it.
ND lives outside of the bubble and can operate in a totally different manner than the other teams. They are granted special access to everything because they were once dominant. That's like saying the Canadiens and Celtics have an auto spot in the playoffs because of their previous titles. Imagine looking at the NBA Standings and seeing 6 divisions - 5 have 5 teams, one has 4 teams and the Celtics are listed as Independent and determine their opponents each year. Just join the ACC already.
01-07-2019 11:36 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #36
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 06:33 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 01:15 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 12:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  FBS will get to 13 across the board. CCG will be gravy among the most deserving.

What I don’t get is how some CCG autonomy measures were able to get through, like the Big 12’s petition, but not the ACC’s. A logical next step in setting up access to a thirteenth game away from the current conference constraints, which, allowable with round robin and below twelve members, but not back to a large single line or other configuration for those at or above twelve?

The access point is being tested. ND is right to test it. Had to wonder if what the ACC proposed for CCG determination was a way to bridge ND to it, too. ND’s not alone in wanting a thirteenth game; in company with at least the B1G and PAC with that one.


B1G with help from the SEC and PAC didn't like the ACC rule change because Delany thought it too vague. Swofford in his own words:

Swofford told ESPN on Thursday that moving to three divisions is "not something we're discussing at all at this point. It just isn't."

"Our purpose behind initiating that discussion was really not about anything specific we would necessarily do, but based on the whole deregulation of a number of NCAA issues in recent years," Swofford told ESPN. "We said over and over again that doesn't mean we would necessarily change anything within our own league.

"We just feel conferences should have the opportunity to do that both in terms of the number of teams in a league and whether you can have a championship as well as how you determine which teams play in that championship game.


Delany was against the vagueness because he didn't want the comparisons between conferences to be too dissimilar. At first Delany was insisting that if the number were lowered to 10 from 12, the B12 should still split up in two divisions, to look the same as the others. Then some had to tell him that they play 9 conference games already so everyone plays everyone.

My own feeling, as I stated way back when was that a small part of Delany believed this was Swofford's "tricky way" of somehow making ND eligible for the ACCCG, since the conference could decide to divide into three divisions, play all four teams in your division and then the two highest rated division leaders would meet in the ACCCG.

Not sure why he felt that the presidents/ADs of the full members of the conference would ever allow for that. But when it comes to ND, Delany can be weird.

Cheers,
Neil

I felt the same way about the ACC’s intentions. For a twofer, no less, with figuring out a way to get ND into ACC championship eligibility (and de facto football membership) and for the semi-final; getting to fourteen games.

Delany is an annoying gatekeeper. Ironically, though, thirteen games is something the B1G and ND were for. But, I guess the Big Ten must have a say in all FBS functions.

Again, as an outsider looking in and as simply a fan of college athletics, that viewpoint may seem plausible. Let's carry this out to its logical conclusion. The ACC would have 15 teams, 5 teams in each division. Each team not named ND plays both the four other members of their division as well as two teams each from the other two divisions. Think the teams in the other two divisions aren't going to complain and gripe about that? Also think about the optics to power brokers and media from outside the conference and how their view of the ACC will be colored by this "favoritism" toward ND. Right now the vast majority of the vitriol (where it exists) is pointed directly at ND, with this maneuver the ACC would get a nearly equal share of it as well. Those are just two of the negatives.

Let's talk about the positives ND has brought to ACC football. Cycling through two games with the Irish every six years has helped in terms of ratings, exposure (especially for those from the Coastal who don't get to play FSU and Clemson annually), attendance at those home games, etc. These are the reasons why the ACC fought to get 5 instead of 4 games from ND and fought to ensure that they would play everyone in the conference. Three divisions and giving ND 4 annual opponents and one other team from the other two divisions to get to 5 games honors the words of the agreement between ND and the ACC but not its spirit. It would take 20 years for the other 10 teams to get an ND home and away game, more than three times what it takes now for 10 of those teams.

I believe that if Swofford recommended to the ACC presidents this action, they would call for his head on a platter. But that is just me. Oh WAIT! Maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all?

I keed, I keed.

Cheers,
Neil
01-07-2019 11:36 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #37
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
Why should an Independent get a 13th game, something denied conference members?

And one of the reasons many give for opposing an expanded playoff is too many games - so you want to add more? BS
01-07-2019 11:36 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 11:36 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  Why should an Independent get a 13th game, something denied conference members?

And one of the reasons many give for opposing an expanded playoff is too many games - so you want to add more? BS

Stop being logical.
01-07-2019 11:38 AM
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #39
RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
With Notre Dame proving they can make the playoff with only 12 games, I don't see why this would be necessary on their part (unless they just want to shut up other fans who say they shouldn't be in the playoffs with only 12 games).

And if they add a 13th game against an inferior opponent just to collect a little extra gate revenue, would we really learn anything more about their team than we already know?

I feel like Notre Dame schedules tough enough that their 12-game resume can be compared with the SEC champ, who would have played an FCS cupcake as one of their 13 games.
01-07-2019 11:43 AM
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esayem Offline
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RE: ND wants NCAA to allow them a 13th game
(01-07-2019 11:08 AM)Shox Wrote:  I would be okay with this as well. All it does is allow Independents to schedule big games in week 0, leave an open daTe at the end of the season to schedule a team who lost a game due to weather, or lastly schedule a fellow Independent during championship weekend. Notre Dame vs BYU would be a fun game. The obvious fear is that Notre Dame will basterdize this and try to schedule 8 home games to maximize profits. It might make sense to limit home games to 7 to keep them reigned in.

This would allow them 7 home games, 5 away, and the neutral site Shamrock Series.

I’m not sure what they would do during championship week, maybe play the Shamrock Series. I could see a series with BYU or NMSU in the new Vegas stadium. Maybe UMass in Gillette or Fenway (it would be pretty cold). Liberty in DC. I don’t really see Army playing ND right before Navy, but who knows. With Army the neutral site options are endless.

In my opinion, a school should be allowed to be independent, it runs deep into the history of the sport. People who demand teams play in conferences seem anal-retentive and like things in little boxes.

I made this point a while ago that FCS games shouldn’t count whatsoever and they should be scheduled week 0 or 1.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 12:06 PM by esayem.)
01-07-2019 12:04 PM
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