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Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-04-2019 02:53 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 12:17 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 10:49 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 10:11 AM)megadrone Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 09:01 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Between the times of Nebraska/Colorado leaving the B12 and Syracuse/Pitt leaving the BE for the ACC, there was a lot of speculation that the BE was in contact with B12 schools about a merger. At the time the B12 was on a death watch as most of the schools not named Texas were looking for a safe place in anticipation of the wide spread belief that the B12 was about to implode. The speculation was that Texas would go independent rather than stay in a rump B12 with the leftovers that no other BCS conference wanted. Those leftovers (ie: ISU, KState, OSU, Baylor) would want to join TCU in the BE rather than try to rebuild the B12 as a G5 conference.

Wasn't there also speculation about Pitt and WVU going to the Big 12? Or was it Pitt and another school, and when Pitt declined the Big 12 showed some interest in WVU? I seem to recall that but not sure if it was only message board fodder.

It was out there...the Big12 was kicking the tires. Big12 really missed the opportunity to move first.

The ACC got off their butt and offered Cuse and Pitt separately and secretly but at the same time. The B1G was also chatting with several BE schools. The ACC didn't want to get boxed out.

The XII could've gone to 12 with Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Cincinnati, and Louisville - maybe 14 with TCU and Houston.

South: Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St
North: Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St, Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Pittsburgh

This type of divisional set-up may explain why they could never get the votes for expansion beyond ten. Need a super majority to get that and since the league was down to 8 members when they expanded with just TCU and WVU anything beyond 10 would likely be voted down by KU, KSU, and ISU precisely because they wouldn't want to give up their game with OU.

But I am a northeastern, so it's just a guess on my part.

Cheers,
Neil

That's very possible. However, Iowa St, Kansas St, and Kansas (to some degree) have to know their place amongst the power schools lies in them saying "yes" to the desires of Texas and Oklahoma.
01-04-2019 06:17 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-04-2019 05:16 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Neil, I got the impression that some of the animosity between WVU and other Big East members, specifically someone like Syracuse, was how that it was known they were shopping for other homes, like the ACC and supposedly the Big Ten, but then still tended to stand with the non-fb schools with certain issues.

WVU, like others in the Big East, eventually found their way into the conference quite the hard way. At first as football-only, and then, with some network money/coaxing, their full membership. The football issue in a basketball-first conference, and how it trickled down monetarily, created all of these different factions that only enhanced or highlighted these rifts.

All of those now former Big East schools have some blood on their hands for any number of reasons. Hopefully, these schools can move on and work together in some non-conference capacity with some of these problematic personalities out of the way. And it extends beyond Luck, WVU, and Cuse to whatever crap issues existed between Pitt and Penn State, and others in that northeastern cluster.

Looking at it from somewhat of a distance, although I understood you to be a fan of PA football, which I took to mean PSU, Pitt, Temple, and perhaps Nova and maybe even WVU, I don't expect you to have the same knowledge or passion about the topic at hand. I know you have hinted in the past that you are convinced that had JoePa's Eastern Conference come about everything would be fine now. I disagree with that opinion strongly but if it is your opinion fine. There is no way to prove it either way.

In regard to your actual post above, perhaps you didn't know that West Virginia did the most open "shopping around" in the late 00s through the early 10s for a home in the SEC. As for WVU finding its way into the conference "the hard way", nobody held a gun to their head to make them join the Big East football conference in the early 90s or accept full membership a few years later when SU, Pitt, BC, and Miami went to bat for them. I'm glad they did, but they ultimately made the decision that was best for them at that time. It was a huge step up considering being an independent in football was going to be impossible in terms of schedule, games being shown on TV, make $$$, etc., unless your name was/is Notre Dame.

As for SU, when we didn't get the invite in 2003 we came back and Jake Crouthamel and President Shaw made it public that we would not accept the 12th spot in the ACC if offered but that we would keep our conference options open.

After saying the above, though asked to, Syracuse didn't join the stupid lawsuit brought by Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, and UConn (VT as well prior to their leaving for the ACC as #10), a lawsuit filed against the ACC, Miami and eventually BC (please note SU was never a defendant in that suit at any time even though it was believed we would be #11 or #12 at the time it was filed) since neither the schools nor their lawyers could find any evidence that we did anything against conference by-laws.

When SU returned, Jake (a real AD) rolled up his sleeves and started the work necessary to give options to the presidents of the league. The main option being splitting and forming a new league which the presidents (plural, not just SU's) voted down.

Why was it voted down? Because Tranghese had talked with the other conferences' power brokers and learned that the new conference, despite who was likely to be added, would lose their BCS auto-bid outright once the split occurred since the BCS contract specified which named conferences would receive an auto-bid. Imagine recruiting after losing your two top programs and the BCS auto-bid? On top of that TV made it clear that a new separate conference of 8 or 9 wouldn't get as much money as the other proposal of 8/8. And lastly the football schools would have lost their NCAA BB units they had earned in the previous 6 years.

So the presidents voted to go 8/8 with the get out of jail free card (if after 5 years the football schools were dissatisfied, they could split and take the NCAA BB units with them). The 8/8 split won the day and Tranghese actually credited the WVU president the most for his efforts in selling it to the football schools. Our AD Jake said if that option was chosen he would retire, which is what he did the next year. In terms of the bb schools impeding potential monetary gains for then Big East football schools, I suggest you check out how much the AAC makes in comparison with the Big East from 2005-2012. Because that is the type of money a split BE conference was looking at. And one doesn't need to be an insider to know this. Common sense should suffice. Btw, give the bb schools some credit. They were willing to accept TCU into the conference. You should give them credit for that.

As for "blood" on all of the northeastern schools, this is true, but in my mind the biggest amount of that blood rests with PSU. While other geographical areas had the MAJOR football program(s) within it bringing about solid geographical conferences that still exist to this day as power conferences, JoePa was only ever concerned with PSU and JoePa and that was it.

Cheers,
Neil
01-04-2019 06:21 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-04-2019 06:17 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 02:53 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 12:17 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 10:49 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 10:11 AM)megadrone Wrote:  Wasn't there also speculation about Pitt and WVU going to the Big 12? Or was it Pitt and another school, and when Pitt declined the Big 12 showed some interest in WVU? I seem to recall that but not sure if it was only message board fodder.

It was out there...the Big12 was kicking the tires. Big12 really missed the opportunity to move first.

The ACC got off their butt and offered Cuse and Pitt separately and secretly but at the same time. The B1G was also chatting with several BE schools. The ACC didn't want to get boxed out.

The XII could've gone to 12 with Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Cincinnati, and Louisville - maybe 14 with TCU and Houston.

South: Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St
North: Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St, Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Pittsburgh

This type of divisional set-up may explain why they could never get the votes for expansion beyond ten. Need a super majority to get that and since the league was down to 8 members when they expanded with just TCU and WVU anything beyond 10 would likely be voted down by KU, KSU, and ISU precisely because they wouldn't want to give up their game with OU.

But I am a northeastern, so it's just a guess on my part.

Cheers,
Neil

That's very possible. However, Iowa St, Kansas St, and Kansas (to some degree) have to know their place amongst the power schools lies in them saying "yes" to the desires of Texas and Oklahoma.

Well, if Texas and OU were truly serious about expansion to 12 or beyond they probably would. Should be an informative reality for all on this board to take note of.

Cheers,
Neil
01-04-2019 06:23 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-04-2019 09:01 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(01-03-2019 03:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Timing seems off. Syracuse and Pittsburgh weren't announced to the ACC until September 2011, so the Big East hadn't begun to lose members. TCU also didn't rescind their invitation to the Big East until that time as well. A&M and Missouri did not leave for the SEC until August 2011. Nebraska and Colorado did leave in June 2010.

I doubt that Luck knew in 2010 that WVU would be in the Big 12. Too many future moving parts had to have occurred, and it is very possible that West Virginia would have been on the outside had the Big 12 selected Louisville over West Virginia (along with TCU) to get to ten members.

Between the times of Nebraska/Colorado leaving the B12 and Syracuse/Pitt leaving the BE for the ACC, there was a lot of speculation that the BE was in contact with B12 schools about a merger. At the time the B12 was on a death watch as most of the schools not named Texas were looking for a safe place in anticipation of the wide spread belief that the B12 was about to implode. The speculation was that Texas would go independent rather than stay in a rump B12 with the leftovers that no other BCS conference wanted. Those leftovers (ie: ISU, KState, OSU, Baylor) would want to join TCU in the BE rather than try to rebuild the B12 as a G5 conference.

I don't remember this scenario. I do remember that when Texas, Tech,The Okies and Colorado were reported as a done deal to the P10 that Kansas, K state , Missouri and Iowa st were all set to join the BE. Even after Missouri went to sec the plan was for the others to join the BE. obviously when the p10 deal didn't happen Kansas and company stayed put and the BE dominos began to fall
01-05-2019 02:47 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-04-2019 06:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  Looking at it from somewhat of a distance, although I understood you to be a fan of PA football, which I took to mean PSU, Pitt, Temple, and perhaps Nova and maybe even WVU, I don't expect you to have the same knowledge or passion about the topic at hand. I know you have hinted in the past that you are convinced that had JoePa's Eastern Conference come about everything would be fine now. I disagree with that opinion strongly but if it is your opinion fine. There is no way to prove it either way.

No conference that sought parts from the Big East, ACC, and Big Ten ever had my ideological support, because it sounds just as bat-**** crazy as it would have been to actually pull off. I've admitted (and still feel) that if Penn State got the votes to the Big East the first time that it would have changed the trajectory of northeastern athletics, especially that it would have made the Big Ten a very tough sell (and may not have happened, imo) if nothing else changed. But Joe's Super East? No. Crazy.

I don't know all of the in's and out's about the Big East away from the PA schools and Rutgers. I know PSU's dreadful piece. I know how Pitt didn't have Temple's back in the ejection vote. I know the heat generated within Philadelphia because of Villanova's acceptance, and how they leveraged their membership against Temple and Saint Joe's, and eventually becoming one of the causes in that suspension of the Big 5. The "bonds" between the other members, original, football first, ND, and/or CUSA booty, no. Which is why I asked, since the factions were somewhat well known.

But, ahead of it all, I subscribe to the "doomed to fail" camp. The conference sought to be a northeastern version of ACC basketball. It comprised of members who wished it could be a part of that conference, and added more of the same. Too many different kinds of schools with differing programs and priorities. And, thus, very unlike their major conference neighbors to the south and west. Of course there are some that probably didn't like each other...how many times during the Big East has that shown itself as true?

So, nothing against Cuse. I don't dislike either program, only those who speak for them if it's warranted. I'm not a fan of Ollie.

Quote:Btw, give the bb schools some credit. They were willing to accept TCU into the conference. You should give them credit for that.

From what I remember, because it left such a strong impression, was that, yes, the bb schools did "accept" them, but it wasn't unanimous among them. And that even the one dissension pissed off some of the football schools.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2019 10:39 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
01-06-2019 10:36 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
after all these years I still like to talk about the split. Not sure why. IMO the FB BE schools were never united. Shame that they couldn't have stuck together for the good of the whole. I realize there would have been consequences in a split in 2003. Convincing Miami and VTech to stay, could they have formed a separate FB only conference with the intent of becoming all sport after X amount of time? Maybe gradually increasing sponsorship of sports until year (5)? when BB came on board. that would have been a good league even without PSU. they still could have brought in Cincy and Louisville, What would/could the ACC have done? I cant think of 3 schools that all of the ACC would be on board with. I can see Clemson, FSU to name names considering a move to SEC. What might have been


Miami
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UConn
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WVU
Louisville
Cincy

Notre Dame


Georgetown
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01-06-2019 12:42 PM
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RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-04-2019 02:51 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 10:49 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 10:11 AM)megadrone Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 09:01 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  
(01-03-2019 03:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Timing seems off. Syracuse and Pittsburgh weren't announced to the ACC until September 2011, so the Big East hadn't begun to lose members. TCU also didn't rescind their invitation to the Big East until that time as well. A&M and Missouri did not leave for the SEC until August 2011. Nebraska and Colorado did leave in June 2010.

I doubt that Luck knew in 2010 that WVU would be in the Big 12. Too many future moving parts had to have occurred, and it is very possible that West Virginia would have been on the outside had the Big 12 selected Louisville over West Virginia (along with TCU) to get to ten members.

Between the times of Nebraska/Colorado leaving the B12 and Syracuse/Pitt leaving the BE for the ACC, there was a lot of speculation that the BE was in contact with B12 schools about a merger. At the time the B12 was on a death watch as most of the schools not named Texas were looking for a safe place in anticipation of the wide spread belief that the B12 was about to implode. The speculation was that Texas would go independent rather than stay in a rump B12 with the leftovers that no other BCS conference wanted. Those leftovers (ie: ISU, KState, OSU, Baylor) would want to join TCU in the BE rather than try to rebuild the B12 as a G5 conference.

Wasn't there also speculation about Pitt and WVU going to the Big 12? Or was it Pitt and another school, and when Pitt declined the Big 12 showed some interest in WVU? I seem to recall that but not sure if it was only message board fodder.

It was out there...the Big12 was kicking the tires. Big12 really missed the opportunity to move first.

The ACC got off their butt and offered Cuse and Pitt separately and secretly but at the same time. The B1G was also chatting with several BE schools. The ACC didn't want to get boxed out.

I personally think the B12 wasn't more aggressive because it was studying other possible options. At one point there was a lot of talk about the B12 courting FSU and Clemson/GT/daU. I also think that is why the ACC was so aggressive about inviting Pitt/Cuse and getting a GOR signed. I believe the ACC thought it was about to loose 2 schools to the B12. Too bad that the B12 didn't take Ville and Cincy to go to 12. That would have made UConn most likely to be the replacement for UMd.

That whole thing about the B12 courting Clemson and FSU was completely a made up story from the dude of WV. Whoever he was in cohoots with were upset because the ACC turned down WV once again after Pitt and SU left the BE to join the ACC. Once WV found a home in the B12 is when they started their rumor mongering.

Its funny because Oliver Luck was running his mouth at every turn about how WV was making itself attractive so it will be the prettiest girl in the room when expansion happened. Then Pitt and SU left them behind for the ACC, lol. WV fans are very bitter about anything regarding the ACC. The rumors about the ACC started when Maryland accepted the invite for the BIG and after WV finally found a home in the B12. Then the rumors heated up when the attention seeking booster from FSU said that "if the B12 approches them they would listen." Because he thought the ACC was further behind in revenues than they were. Then you never heard from him again after meeting with Swofford.

Not too long after that we learn that the GOR had been signed by all the ACC schools.
Then it was confirmed that ESPN had agreed to explore an ACCN with the Acc. So while a GOR had to be signed for ESPN to commit to an ACCN, it wasnt specifically to stave off the B12. The GOR had to be signed no matter what if the ACC wanted to start an ACCN. Hindsight tells us that the B12 had no chance of picking off any P5 teams since it had just involuntarrily sharred four of its teams with the PAC, the SEC and the BIG, and became the least stable of all the P5 leagues.
01-06-2019 12:42 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-06-2019 10:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-04-2019 06:21 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  Looking at it from somewhat of a distance, although I understood you to be a fan of PA football, which I took to mean PSU, Pitt, Temple, and perhaps Nova and maybe even WVU, I don't expect you to have the same knowledge or passion about the topic at hand. I know you have hinted in the past that you are convinced that had JoePa's Eastern Conference come about everything would be fine now. I disagree with that opinion strongly but if it is your opinion fine. There is no way to prove it either way.

No conference that sought parts from the Big East, ACC, and Big Ten ever had my ideological support, because it sounds just as bat-**** crazy as it would have been to actually pull off.

I am confused by this statement. If you are referring to JoePa's all-sports Eastern Conference the only one not to fit the bill would probably be Maryland, but the rest were all considered Eastern independents. If he had managed it, the hard part would have been to keep it together. Jake Crouthamel and the ADs at Pitt and BC were able to pull it off by getting two other Eastern independents (Miami and VT) on board but this was after Penn State accepted the invite to the Big Ten. Again, holding a conference together is the hard part, not putting it together.

Quote:I've admitted (and still feel) that if Penn State got the votes to the Big East the first time that it would have changed the trajectory of northeastern athletics, especially that it would have made the Big Ten a very tough sell (and may not have happened, imo) if nothing else changed. But Joe's Super East? No. Crazy.

Then I suggest you read up on Bryce Jordan. Maryland was in the ACC 60 years, but they moved to the Big Ten because of two men Kirwan and Loh. If you believe that Penn State would not have left when offered by the Big Ten because they played bb and Olympic sports in the Big East then that is the crazy talk to me. May have been tougher had JoePa's all-sports Eastern conference been formed, but again Maryland is the perfect example of why that likely would not be the case.

Quote:I don't know all of the in's and out's about the Big East away from the PA schools and Rutgers. I know PSU's dreadful piece. I know how Pitt didn't have Temple's back in the ejection vote. I know the heat generated within Philadelphia because of Villanova's acceptance, and how they leveraged their membership against Temple and Saint Joe's, and eventually becoming one of the causes in that suspension of the Big 5. The "bonds" between the other members, original, football first, ND, and/or CUSA booty, no. Which is why I asked, since the factions were somewhat well known.

But, ahead of it all, I subscribe to the "doomed to fail" camp. The conference sought to be a northeastern version of ACC basketball. It comprised of members who wished it could be a part of that conference, and added more of the same. Too many different kinds of schools with differing programs and priorities. And, thus, very unlike their major conference neighbors to the south and west. Of course there are some that probably didn't like each other...how many times during the Big East has that shown itself as true?

So, nothing against Cuse. I don't dislike either program, only those who speak for them if it's warranted. I'm not a fan of Ollie.

Quote:Btw, give the bb schools some credit. They were willing to accept TCU into the conference. You should give them credit for that.

From what I remember, because it left such a strong impression, was that, yes, the bb schools did "accept" them, but it wasn't unanimous among them. And that even the one dissension pissed off some of the football schools.

If you believe ALL votes are affirmative when adding a new member to a conference, then there truly isn't more for me say. Heck, I believe that even if ND called up the ACC commish and said, we are ready to join full, there would be one or two ACC members that would object. Swofford would be dancing on his desk though. But as always you are entitled to your opinion.

Cheers,
Neil
01-06-2019 07:39 PM
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OrangeDude Offline
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RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-06-2019 12:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  after all these years I still like to talk about the split. Not sure why. IMO the FB BE schools were never united. Shame that they couldn't have stuck together for the good of the whole.

It's called the Bigger Fish eats the Littler Fish. It's no different than Butler not caring about the "good of the whole" when they left the Horizon League for the Atlantic 10 and then a year after that, leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East.

Same with Xavier leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East and Creighton leaving the Missouri Valley for the Big East. And if tomorrow the ACC decided that they were good at 14 for football and for purposes of its Network thought going a partial hybrid would help generate more subscribers and higher advertising rates by offering membership to Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's I believe after much soul-searching those Big East schools would bite.

Just be grateful that there are too many northerners in the conference now so rest assure THAT isn't going to happen. 03-lmfao

Cheers,
Neil
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2019 07:57 PM by OrangeDude.)
01-06-2019 07:56 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-06-2019 07:56 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-06-2019 12:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  after all these years I still like to talk about the split. Not sure why. IMO the FB BE schools were never united. Shame that they couldn't have stuck together for the good of the whole.

It's called the Bigger Fish eats the Littler Fish. It's no different than Butler not caring about the "good of the whole" when they left the Horizon League for the Atlantic 10 and then a year after that, leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East.

Same with Xavier leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East and Creighton leaving the Missouri Valley for the Big East. And if tomorrow the ACC decided that they were good at 14 for football and for purposes of its Network thought going a partial hybrid would help generate more subscribers and higher advertising rates by offering membership to Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's I believe after much soul-searching those Big East schools would bite.

Just be grateful that there are too many northerners in the conference now so rest assure THAT isn't going to happen. 03-lmfao

Cheers,
Neil

I get that. I just feel its a little different in cases like Butler, Xavier and Creighton. They all left to be associated with schools, as a group, were a step above in athletic history/ tradition. I think that BE FB was under rated and more on par with the ACC programs This was also an opportunity to keep or strengthen a Northeastern based all sport league. IMO that BE FB league could have become a force. More of a major player as all sport than the MVC, and A10 with Creighton, Xavier and Butler could have hoped to be at their respective level.

in short the MVC would still be the MVC had Creighton stayed. Same with A10. The "AAC" would be P5 if that old BE lineup was intact. Who knows maybe BE FB would have become the hunter and not the hunted.
01-08-2019 07:21 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-08-2019 07:21 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(01-06-2019 07:56 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-06-2019 12:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  after all these years I still like to talk about the split. Not sure why. IMO the FB BE schools were never united. Shame that they couldn't have stuck together for the good of the whole.

It's called the Bigger Fish eats the Littler Fish. It's no different than Butler not caring about the "good of the whole" when they left the Horizon League for the Atlantic 10 and then a year after that, leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East.

Same with Xavier leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East and Creighton leaving the Missouri Valley for the Big East. And if tomorrow the ACC decided that they were good at 14 for football and for purposes of its Network thought going a partial hybrid would help generate more subscribers and higher advertising rates by offering membership to Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's I believe after much soul-searching those Big East schools would bite.

Just be grateful that there are too many northerners in the conference now so rest assure THAT isn't going to happen. 03-lmfao

Cheers,
Neil

I get that. I just feel its a little different in cases like Butler, Xavier and Creighton. They all left to be associated with schools, as a group, were a step above in athletic history/ tradition. I think that BE FB was under rated and more on par with the ACC programs This was also an opportunity to keep or strengthen a Northeastern based all sport league. IMO that BE FB league could have become a force. More of a major player as all sport than the MVC, and A10 with Creighton, Xavier and Butler could have hoped to be at their respective level.

in short the MVC would still be the MVC had Creighton stayed. Same with A10. The "AAC" would be P5 if that old BE lineup was intact. Who knows maybe BE FB would have become the hunter and not the hunted.

With the loss of Miami, the Power status of the BE was on its last legs. It was just a matter of time. It was pretty close to the ACC on average, but the top usually was well behind.
01-08-2019 08:10 PM
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RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-08-2019 07:21 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(01-06-2019 07:56 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-06-2019 12:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  after all these years I still like to talk about the split. Not sure why. IMO the FB BE schools were never united. Shame that they couldn't have stuck together for the good of the whole.

It's called the Bigger Fish eats the Littler Fish. It's no different than Butler not caring about the "good of the whole" when they left the Horizon League for the Atlantic 10 and then a year after that, leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East.

Same with Xavier leaving the Atlantic 10 for the Big East and Creighton leaving the Missouri Valley for the Big East. And if tomorrow the ACC decided that they were good at 14 for football and for purposes of its Network thought going a partial hybrid would help generate more subscribers and higher advertising rates by offering membership to Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's I believe after much soul-searching those Big East schools would bite.

Just be grateful that there are too many northerners in the conference now so rest assure THAT isn't going to happen. 03-lmfao

Cheers,
Neil

I get that. I just feel its a little different in cases like Butler, Xavier and Creighton. They all left to be associated with schools, as a group, were a step above in athletic history/ tradition. I think that BE FB was under rated and more on par with the ACC programs. This was also an opportunity to keep or strengthen a Northeastern based all sport league. IMO that BE FB league could have become a force.More of a major player as all sport than the MVC, and A10 with Creighton, Xavier and Butler could have hoped to be at their respective level.

in short the MVC would still be the MVC had Creighton stayed. Same with A10. The "AAC" would be P5 if that old BE lineup was intact. Who knows maybe BE FB would have become the hunter and not the hunted.

But what you describe here is a mixture of JoePa's and Dave Gavitt's dream from the 80s. Whereas I see it as Miami, BC, SU, Pitt, and VT truly preferring Swofford's announced 2003 vision of an East Coast Boston to Miami version of the PAC on steroids and WVU preferring the SEC.

Now that ACC vision is missing 1 and 3/8ths pieces and had to exchange Maryland with Louisville, but the path to conference realignment always has its dead ends, road blocks and tricky curves to navigate through. 03-wink

Ultimately, I look at it as what is meant to be will be.

But watching the St. John's/Georgetown game a few days ago and the Nova/St. John's game last night did bring back that old Big East nostalgia in me.

Cheers,
Neil
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2019 09:21 AM by OrangeDude.)
01-09-2019 09:19 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Online
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Post: #33
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
It certainly would have been a different path within college athletics had a majority of Big East Football (2003) decided to invest in their conference, rather than pursue "greater glory" within the ACC. Had they been proactive in the early 2000's, poaching Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis from C-USA, and elevating UConn, they would have been able to stage a CCG before the ACC would have - and likely had the opportunity to earn more revenue and decreasing the likelihood of defections.

Boston College
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Louisville
Memphis
Miami
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (football-only)
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Non-Football
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01-09-2019 10:08 AM
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-09-2019 10:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  It certainly would have been a different path within college athletics had a majority of Big East Football (2003) decided to invest in their conference, rather than pursue "greater glory" within the ACC. Had they been proactive in the early 2000's, poaching Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis from C-USA, and elevating UConn, they would have been able to stage a CCG before the ACC would have - and likely had the opportunity to earn more revenue and decreasing the likelihood of defections.

Boston College
Cincinnati
UConn
Louisville
Memphis
Miami
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (football-only)
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Non-Football
Georgetown
Notre Dame
Providence
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Villanova

Disregarding the fact that Miami still would have left when offered by the ACC, the BEBB schools would have to have approved UL, UC, and Memphis as full members. At that point in time they had no say on federated membership in the separate Big East conference but they did have the votes to block full membership. And since their price for full membership for UL and UC in 2003 (when the vote was taken) was Marquette and DePaul for an 8/8 split it is uncertain they would have allowed an 11/6 disadvantage at that time for all things not football related.

Also people tend to forget that one of Miami's concerns was that as a private institution they knew they didn't have the resources to sustain being relied upon as the one and only super power in a conference. This solution truly doesn't address it though it likely would have helped in terms of $$$ being closer to what they eventually got in the ACC.

Miami's concerns outside of $$$ also applied to a lesser extent with FSU in the ACC. So as a result they both knew that they needed to be in the same conference for not just $$$ reasons but for strengthening and support during the down years. I believe the amount of FSU/Miami backroom discussions is downplayed in significance mainly because not a lot of it was reported then or even been revealed to this day.

The odd part is that once they were both in a conference together each took a step backwards (FSU slightly less so than Miami) and VT pretty much became the face of the conference which is why the Big East without Miami became the equal to the conference in terms of the top because WVU > VT during that time frame.

But it is strange to see a Marquette fan supporting a concept that would have resulted in that program not winding up in the Big East.

Cheers,
Neil
01-09-2019 10:47 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-09-2019 10:47 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(01-09-2019 10:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  It certainly would have been a different path within college athletics had a majority of Big East Football (2003) decided to invest in their conference, rather than pursue "greater glory" within the ACC. Had they been proactive in the early 2000's, poaching Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis from C-USA, and elevating UConn, they would have been able to stage a CCG before the ACC would have - and likely had the opportunity to earn more revenue and decreasing the likelihood of defections.

Boston College
Cincinnati
UConn
Louisville
Memphis
Miami
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (football-only)
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

Non-Football
Georgetown
Notre Dame
Providence
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Villanova

Disregarding the fact that Miami still would have left when offered by the ACC, the BEBB schools would have to have approved UL, UC, and Memphis as full members. At that point in time they had no say on federated membership in the separate Big East conference but they did have the votes to block full membership. And since their price for full membership for UL and UC in 2003 (when the vote was taken) was Marquette and DePaul for an 8/8 split it is uncertain they would have allowed an 11/6 disadvantage at that time for all things not football related.

Also people tend to forget that one of Miami's concerns was that as a private institution they knew they didn't have the resources to sustain being relied upon as the one and only super power in a conference. This solution truly doesn't address it though it likely would have helped in terms of $$$ being closer to what they eventually got in the ACC.

Miami's concerns outside of $$$ also applied to a lesser extent with FSU in the ACC. So as a result they both knew that they needed to be in the same conference for not just $$$ reasons but for strengthening and support during the down years. I believe the amount of FSU/Miami backroom discussions is downplayed in significance mainly because not a lot of it was reported then or even been revealed to this day.

The odd part is that once they were both in a conference together each took a step backwards (FSU slightly less so than Miami) and VT pretty much became the face of the conference which is why the Big East without Miami became the equal to the conference in terms of the top because WVU > VT during that time frame.

But it is strange to see a Marquette fan supporting a concept that would have resulted in that program not winding up in the Big East.

Cheers,
Neil

All good points.

I think the inevitability of a non-football Private conference, one where the non-football schools of the Big East, and Midwestern schools like Marquette, DePaul and Xavier, was only a matter of time - specifically, when it made sense financially and legally for the non-football schools to officially divorce from the football schools. Mike Deane, former HC at Marquette, always spoke on a Catholic Conference that other coaches would envision, once football began driving realignment, and the Catholic schools (including others like Notre Dame and Saint Louis) eventually having their own league. Obviously, Notre Dame is not a part of that now, but the other parts are.
01-09-2019 11:04 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
I wonder what the ACC would have done with divisions in the early 2000’s had the original expansion plan with BC, Syracuse, and Miami gone through.
01-09-2019 02:04 PM
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RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-08-2019 08:10 PM)bullet Wrote:  With the loss of Miami, the Power status of the BE was on its last legs. It was just a matter of time. It was pretty close to the ACC on average, but the top usually was well behind.

Yeah, as the conference kept moving west to attempt to include relevant programs. TCU, Air Force, BYU...
01-09-2019 04:47 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-09-2019 04:47 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-08-2019 08:10 PM)bullet Wrote:  With the loss of Miami, the Power status of the BE was on its last legs. It was just a matter of time. It was pretty close to the ACC on average, but the top usually was well behind.

Yeah, as the conference kept moving west to attempt to include relevant programs. TCU, Air Force, BYU...

I only rememner TCU being invited to the BE. Maybe the others you mentioned came along after SU left, about when Navy was being recruited. I know TCU reneged. Not sure about Air Force or BYU, or why things didnt work out that way.
01-09-2019 05:52 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
(01-09-2019 05:52 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-09-2019 04:47 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(01-08-2019 08:10 PM)bullet Wrote:  With the loss of Miami, the Power status of the BE was on its last legs. It was just a matter of time. It was pretty close to the ACC on average, but the top usually was well behind.

Yeah, as the conference kept moving west to attempt to include relevant programs. TCU, Air Force, BYU...

I only rememner TCU being invited to the BE. Maybe the others you mentioned came along after SU left, about when Navy was being recruited. I know TCU reneged. Not sure about Air Force or BYU, or why things didnt work out that way.

It’s kind of like the Big Ten and Texas. Said to be wanted, approached, studied, and whatnot, yeah, a targeted chaser, but not viable or realistic over those like Rutgers, Pitt, Missouri, etc., who we know were there for some years wanting in? I’ve interpreted the SA’s as the chasers to the Big East; at the front of the mind but not really reachable. TCU like Maryland, which you’d be stupid to pass on if willing.
01-09-2019 08:16 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Did Oliver Luck know WVU was going into the Big 12 in December 2010?
my whole point of course centered on Miami staying. admittingly the ACC made more sense. fit in nicely geographically. It worked out for all(almost all) I like the current BE. I also think its more acceptable for the BE to have a wider footprint given the type of schools that make up the BE. I also favor all sport leagues to be more regionally focused. Still strange to me to see Pitt, BC and Cuse in the ACC and not in a northern based league. If it works for them I guess what I prefer doesn't really matter! 04-cheers
01-09-2019 10:34 PM
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