The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(01-02-2019 09:40 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-02-2019 09:25 AM)ladeda Wrote:  

(01-01-2019 04:53 PM)marcuscan Wrote:  I'm totally ok with it.

That said, we may all have some feels next season if, Mr. Wiggins, does the same. lol

Nevertheless, it seems like a sensible business decision.

I haven't been paying attention to how much 1st round NFL draft picks got paid. But since Greedy Williams sat out yesterday, and he has been mocked @ #5 overall in a few drafts--- I looked up to see how much the 5th overall pick got in 2018.

$17.9 million signing bonus. $17.9 milion! In a dangerous sport where you run the risk of a severe injury on any play, then I have no problem if a player wants to sit out of a glorified exhibition game to protect their draft stock. It's their life-- they have to do what's best for them. They can run their life however they want. And like MC said-- it seems like it's a sensible business decision.

And if he is getting $17.9 million thanks to the training he received from the university, he should have no problem refunding the part of his scholarship he failed to fulfill.

Considering seniors have already graduated by the time bowls have been played, and Fall Semester has already ended...the players dont owe the school ****. They will not be enrolled in the school for Spring Semester, and therefore they fulfilled their side of the scholarship.

All of this discussion regarding players sitting out of bowls brings me to another train of thought.

The NFL and other professional sports leagues have had athletes protest unfairness in compensation, rules, and benefits by striking. I'm surprised we haven't had any murmurs about a NCAA-wide strike where players sit out a game or anyone consider the possibility. It would absolutely destroy the media and the NCAA if it happened, at least temporarily.

(01-02-2019 11:56 AM)Ragpicker Wrote:  Not picking on you but what is this talk about a bowl game being an exhibition game? Another guy posted 'meaningless bowl game'. Where is the logic in that in UC's world of G5 football?

Seems to me the fact that most coaching changes are made pre-bowl and every year a handful highly rated prospects voluntarily sit them out tells me all I need to know about the meaningfulness of bowls. I'm glad they're around, I enjoyed watching our game and looking at ratings it's a better show for ESPN than basketball. I choose not to watch usually unless it's our game or the playoff games for the same reason I don't watch preseason NFL games.

(01-02-2019 08:39 AM)TubaCat Wrote:  

(01-01-2019 10:27 PM)levydl Wrote:  Cancel scholarships and room and board? The vindictiveness of some of you guys is shameful.

Not sure I follow your logic. Students on academic or community service-based scholarships immediately lose their scholarships if they don't hold up their end of the deal with grades, service hours, etc... and most of those are only worth a small part of the overall tuition and cost of attendance.

A lot of scholarships come with stipulations, I don't see what's shameful about saying, "hey, if you choose to quit the team, you no longer get a free education, free housing, access to first class training facilities, and a cash stipend in your pocket." It is the same standard to which all other students are held.

I'm completely in the camp of supporting the players who choose to pursue their dreams and future jobs without incurring the risk of a freak injury completely derailing them.

As for cancelling scholarships "immediately", unless things have changed in the last 3 years at UC and in the last year across Ohio, kids I've known on academic scholarships did not lose their scholarships/benefits immediately. One of my children started at UC on an ASCEND scholarship in Engineering, decided they wanted to slow down and did not meet the terms of their agreement. UC and the Engineering Administration not only allowed him to finish a semester but also let him keep his co-op assignments. He graduated in April and is gainfully employed at Wright Patt. Another of my children started in Engineering at a diff school on an Honors scholarship, had a bad semester when a best friend died in a car crash and the school allowed her to go on probation for a full semester keeping all benefits. She also graduated in April and is working in a VR programming role.

If one supports "paying back" a portion of the aid, then you cannot in any way, shape or form treat the NCAA as an amateur group of any kind. I believe every kid who has ever sat out would be more than happy to reimburse the school IF the school gave the players a share of the video game sales and every other financial stream that ever uses the players likeness or number or name. Or if the universities provided insurance to every player or committed to providing help for concussion related illnesses for the rest of the player's life due to injuries sustained on behalf of ones beloved university.

If the goal of a university is to make better those individuals that walk through the doors, there is no justification for penalizing a young man or woman who seizes what literally could be a once in a lifetime opportunity. To use examples from above, if the Boston Philharmonic came to CCM looking for a tuba professional or someone needed a bio-chemist to work on the next breakthrough in cancer research but both had to leave in 2 months, prior to graduating, not one person would fault those young people and no one would dare suggest they pay the university back one cent of their scholarship. And yes, I realize those are not apples to apples but the bottom line is, to better an athlete's life and prepare him/her for the best job in their field does not require a degree... or a bowl game.

Treating these young men "the same" is going to look very different. In one case (academics), generally to reach the highest plateau one must graduate whether an athlete or a regular student. In the case of athletics, a degree is not a qualification for reaching the pinnacle of your profession so requiring an athlete to behave like a regular student makes no more sense than requiring all students to get a masters or PhD because in some majors that's whats necessary to reach the top of ones chosen career field.

Sorry this was so long.

(01-02-2019 11:03 AM)BigDawg Wrote:  I'm fine with it for guys with NFL dreams that appear to be locked into the NFL draft. Those insurance policies are so small compared to what they can earn in the NFL. They really are glorified exhibitions and we have seen multiple players lose millions of dollars or even miss out on the NFL because of a major injury in a game that doesn't mean a ton (Trust me, I want to win and I'd be bummed if a UC player sat out, but I would understand and still be fine with it).

What will be interesting as when we start seeing more guys sit out during the season if their team is eliminated from the playoffs to protect their draft stock. I believe Ed Oliver did that this season as it seemed that he was certainly healthy enough to play, which is why that situation boiled over. I think we will see more of that and in that case, I wish there was something that could be done. Those players quit on their team and are taking up a scholarship. Of course proving it could be difficult. That just bugs me more as players are trying to win league championships and that throws the balance out of whack and those are real games. That bugs me a lot more.

Houston would have put up much more of a fight late in the season with Oliver available.

I thought the catalyst for boil over this year was Bosa saying he was not coming back the rest of the year after getting hurt early.

If it was me, I might choose to do the same. I think the circumstances are different for every kid and it’s a decision they should be and are free to make for themselves. But if you step out on your team mates, coaches, and fans like that- also be man enough to face the criticism.

Are bowls meaningless? I wouldn’t say the sponsors say so, or they would not spend their cash to set up these games. I wouldn’t say the hosts say so or they would not offer up their stadium. I wouldn’t say the fans say so or they wouldn’t travel and spend their time and money on it. And I don’t think the posters on this board feel that way bc all we been hearin bout for the last 5+ years this time of year is “bowlcation”. I know I enjoyed our bowl game.

I think it’s just a shame it’s gotten to this point. I feel the purity of the game is diminished somehow by it. What’s to stop a Leveon Bell situation happening in the NCAA? Looks like it probably already has if you look at Bosa and Oliver. Smdh...

(01-02-2019 02:47 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  

(01-02-2019 11:03 AM)BigDawg Wrote:  I'm fine with it for guys with NFL dreams that appear to be locked into the NFL draft. Those insurance policies are so small compared to what they can earn in the NFL. They really are glorified exhibitions and we have seen multiple players lose millions of dollars or even miss out on the NFL because of a major injury in a game that doesn't mean a ton (Trust me, I want to win and I'd be bummed if a UC player sat out, but I would understand and still be fine with it).

What will be interesting as when we start seeing more guys sit out during the season if their team is eliminated from the playoffs to protect their draft stock. I believe Ed Oliver did that this season as it seemed that he was certainly healthy enough to play, which is why that situation boiled over. I think we will see more of that and in that case, I wish there was something that could be done. Those players quit on their team and are taking up a scholarship. Of course proving it could be difficult. That just bugs me more as players are trying to win league championships and that throws the balance out of whack and those are real games. That bugs me a lot more.

Houston would have put up much more of a fight late in the season with Oliver available.

I thought the catalyst for boil over this year was Bosa saying he was not coming back the rest of the year after getting hurt early.

Don't know how I forgot about him. Yeah he started it and Oliver kind of used the "nagging injury" to do the same. I think we will see this more often in the future.

(01-02-2019 10:53 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(01-02-2019 09:40 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-02-2019 09:25 AM)ladeda Wrote:  

(01-01-2019 04:53 PM)marcuscan Wrote:  I'm totally ok with it.

That said, we may all have some feels next season if, Mr. Wiggins, does the same. lol

Nevertheless, it seems like a sensible business decision.

I haven't been paying attention to how much 1st round NFL draft picks got paid. But since Greedy Williams sat out yesterday, and he has been mocked @ #5 overall in a few drafts--- I looked up to see how much the 5th overall pick got in 2018.

$17.9 million signing bonus. $17.9 milion! In a dangerous sport where you run the risk of a severe injury on any play, then I have no problem if a player wants to sit out of a glorified exhibition game to protect their draft stock. It's their life-- they have to do what's best for them. They can run their life however they want. And like MC said-- it seems like it's a sensible business decision.

And if he is getting $17.9 million thanks to the training he received from the university, he should have no problem refunding the part of his scholarship he failed to fulfill.

LOL, I don't know why it always surprises me that the slavemaster mentality of the college sports seeps into the fanbase, but it does. The bargain is so one-sided in favor of the schools, but when a few studs look out for themselves, some fans actually believe that the players are the greedy ones.

How is it a "slavemaster mentality" to expect someone to fulfill their contractual commitment?

If I sign a contract to install 13 sheets of drywall in a new McDonald's, will they pay me if I only install 12? Of course not. And their refusal to pay would NOT be indicative of a "slavemaster mentality."

You appear to think that their pay isn't fair for some reason. But there's not a single line of logic that supports that.

First, it's not a free market, but that doesn't mean the pay isn't fair. They get roughly $30,000 per year in compensation. No other 20 year old can earn that type of money for working 20 hours a week.

Second, UC's athletic department loses $20 million a year, so you can't argue that UC is profiting off them.

Third, and most damning: it's not "labor" for most of the players at UC's level. It's an extracurricular that most of them would gladly pay to be able to do. 80% of them know they have no shot at the NFL.

(01-03-2019 04:05 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  How is it a "slavemaster mentality" to expect someone to fulfill their contractual commitment?

If I sign a contract to install 13 sheets of drywall in a new McDonald's, will they pay me if I only install 12? Of course not. And their refusal to pay would NOT be indicative of a "slavemaster mentality."

You appear to think that their pay isn't fair for some reason. But there's not a single line of logic that supports that.

First, it's not a free market, but that doesn't mean the pay isn't fair. They get roughly $30,000 per year in compensation. No other 20 year old can earn that type of money for working 20 hours a week.

Second, UC's athletic department loses $20 million a year, so you can't argue that UC is profiting off them.

Third, and most damning: it's not "labor" for most of the players at UC's level. It's an extracurricular that most of them would gladly pay to be able to do. 80% of them know they have no shot at the NFL.

There is no provision in their scholarship "contract" that requires players to play every game no matter what. Currently, these players don't lose their scholarship or room and board for skipping the bowl game; that's what you folks are upset about and want to change. So who exactly isn't living up to the bargain?

If their compensation were "fair" or adequate, no players would sit out. By definition. That some players choose to sit rather than play shows that they are not adequately compensated for the risk of playing.

And LOL, UC does not lose money on football. That's preposterous on its face. You can't possibly be so naive. In any case, UC is not a for-profit enterprise, so whether it's making money on football doesn't tell you much about whether it's taking advantage of its football players.

As for your third point, I'm not talking about most players, I'm talking about pro prospects on the cusp of being drafted. Those guys wouldn't pay to play football as an extracurricular activity, as you say. Indeed, they are unwilling to play in the bowl game for free. That's what you seem to be upset about.

To me, this is no different than a player with a concussion refusing to play in a game. He is able to play, players did it all the time in the past. But the risk of serious injury is too high; the costs outweigh the benefits. If you're a potential first round pick, the costs of playing in a bowl game outweigh the benefits. The only rational decision is to sit out. If coaches actually gave a damn about their players' futures, they would sit them. But they don't, they care about winning the Sugar Bowl, so the players are left to look out for themselves.

As for the slavemaster mentality, uh, yeah man, I guess players should just be happy that they get a place to live and fed and a scholarship. Once they are no more use to the school, GTFO.

(01-02-2019 08:51 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  College is about giving kids opportunities to succeed in life.

Yep... All those administrators, tenured professors and faculty sucking down grant money and taking over-inflated tuition, forcing those in STEM to take stupid philosophy and language courses and in the process insuring they get to fleece you for an extra couple of semesters. Not to mention the housing, with beds that would be at home in a dystopian Orwell novel and bed bug infested light fixtures... The bookstore where you buy course materials/textbooks that put out new editions every couple of years, each one costing hundreds of dollars a copy and all of which I'll find on Ebooks for a dollar the moment the class syllabuses require a newer one.
Please, preach the altruism and warmth of a soulless, idea factory, that produces debtors and makes absolutely no guarantee whatsoever about a future career, even after propagandizing children that University is absolutely necessary to get some place in life.

Makes my ******* blood boil.

But on the subject of NFL players, sentimentality means something but so does not squandering a gift which only a select few will ever have and most of the 7 billion people on this earth will never indulge in. I'd be more offended if they didn't sit out and jeopardized the opportunity as a whole.