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This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
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Wedge Offline
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This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
Great use of data by sportswriter David Hale here. (And a good example of how to use real facts, and not just opinions and imagination, to make an argument.)







12-31-2018 02:15 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 02:15 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Great use of data by sportswriter David Hale here. (And a good example of how to use real facts, and not just opinions and imagination, to make an argument.)








I absolutely agree with this. Now let's carry it to another step. Why? Both Saban and Swinney are developing the talent they get. But Saban has a slight advantage and it's not money. Saban does a fantastic assessment of the teachability of the prospective recruits. He will take a teachable kid with slightly less talent over a head case all day long.

Most of those other top 25 coaches don't want alums breathing down their neck on signing day so they go for the flashy kids with the most stars by their name so that the rating services will tell their boosters how great they've done. But those head cases aren't developed, frequently cause dissension on the team, and leave when they don't get their way causing more issues.

In the case of most of these coaches they plug the stars into a system that is never fully explained, or grasped, and rely on their raw talent to win. Fundamentals of the position, of how to read a developing play, and team concept get lost in the shuffle. The result are losses.

Snyder and Petersen have won getting a lot more out of the 3 star kids than many of the rest of the top 25 schools. Had Snyder coached at Ohio State, or Petersen at Texas the results might have been 2 more rivals for Saban and Swinney. BTW Swinney is a pretty good evaluator as well.
12-31-2018 03:01 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
They are there because no one can beat them.

To be the man...
12-31-2018 03:03 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 03:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Snyder and Petersen have won getting a lot more out of the 3 star kids than many of the rest of the top 25 schools. Had Snyder coached at Ohio State, or Petersen at Texas the results might have been 2 more rivals for Saban and Swinney. BTW Swinney is a pretty good evaluator as well.

Yes, Dabo does a great job as well.

Petersen could be winning big at USC, and getting the 4/5 star players that USC always gets, but he's at Washington because Pat Haden thought Sarkisian was a better fit for the USC image. Doh!
12-31-2018 03:31 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
To answer the OP, probably some type of new undetectable steroids or another from of cheating.
12-31-2018 03:31 PM
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johnintx Offline
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 03:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I absolutely agree with this. Now let's carry it to another step. Why? Both Saban and Swinney are developing the talent they get. But Saban has a slight advantage and it's not money. Saban does a fantastic assessment of the teachability of the prospective recruits. He will take a teachable kid with slightly less talent over a head case all day long.

Most of those other top 25 coaches don't want alums breathing down their neck on signing day so they go for the flashy kids with the most stars by their name so that the rating services will tell their boosters how great they've done. But those head cases aren't developed, frequently cause dissension on the team, and leave when they don't get their way causing more issues.

In the case of most of these coaches they plug the stars into a system that is never fully explained, or grasped, and rely on their raw talent to win. Fundamentals of the position, of how to read a developing play, and team concept get lost in the shuffle. The result are losses.

Snyder and Petersen have won getting a lot more out of the 3 star kids than many of the rest of the top 25 schools. Had Snyder coached at Ohio State, or Petersen at Texas the results might have been 2 more rivals for Saban and Swinney. BTW Swinney is a pretty good evaluator as well.

True.

Saban doesn't put up with crap from anyone. He's not going to put up with a prima donna. He's up front with recruits: they may hate the coaches while they're there, but they have a process to get them to the NFL, and if the players follow it, they have a good shot to get there. So, top prospects go to Bama, and if they do things Saban's way, things will work out for them. If a guy is a head case, he won't last in Tuscaloosa, even if he is a mega-5 star recruit.

Also, Bama has many, many big boosters, but they trust Saban to do his thing and leave him alone.

Dabo's strength is that he knows what his strengths and weaknesses are. He is not an X's and O's coach as much as he is an administrator and recruiter. He knows how to recruit, and he knows how to make boosters happy. He can relate to players, and knows how to obtain what he needs to provide the best facilities possible. He is also not threatened by others who are better offensive and defensive minds. He gives his assistant coaches the tools they need to succeed, and provides an environment in which players and coaches want to stay. Clemson always had the resources and the recruiting territory. They now have a guy that can connect all the dots and have everyone pull on the same rope. I also don't think Dabo could go home to Alabama and have the same success. He fits best where he is.

If you recruit the best players, then give them the tools they need to succeed at this level, you will win big. Alabama and Clemson are the best at this. The rest of us need to beat them.
12-31-2018 03:59 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 03:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I absolutely agree with this. Now let's carry it to another step. Why? Both Saban and Swinney are developing the talent they get. But Saban has a slight advantage and it's not money. Saban does a fantastic assessment of the teachability of the prospective recruits. He will take a teachable kid with slightly less talent over a head case all day long.

Most of those other top 25 coaches don't want alums breathing down their neck on signing day so they go for the flashy kids with the most stars by their name so that the rating services will tell their boosters how great they've done. But those head cases aren't developed, frequently cause dissension on the team, and leave when they don't get their way causing more issues.

In the case of most of these coaches they plug the stars into a system that is never fully explained, or grasped, and rely on their raw talent to win. Fundamentals of the position, of how to read a developing play, and team concept get lost in the shuffle. The result are losses.

Snyder and Petersen have won getting a lot more out of the 3 star kids than many of the rest of the top 25 schools. Had Snyder coached at Ohio State, or Petersen at Texas the results might have been 2 more rivals for Saban and Swinney. BTW Swinney is a pretty good evaluator as well.

To be fair, we don't typically take the headcases either, and if we take one by mistake they don't last long. Ask Chad Kelly.

And as for taking a teachable kid....there's a reason Hunter Renfrow is a four year letter winner at Clemson when no other FBS school even offered a walk-on slot to.


Clemson's recruiting staff digs deep into a prospective recruit's social media, interviews, etc. long before we even start recruiting them. There's a precious few prospects who get Clemson offers who did not attend camp at some point in their high school career so that our staff could see what kind of person the recruit is for themselves. Every year there's players who list a Clemson offer who never got one. This policy has cost us at times when we missed out on our top prospects but it's worked to our benefit far more often as the kid ends up being trouble elsewhere. We also don't offer everybody under the sun like some programs. Dabo's always held that a Clemson offer is going to be honored, but it has to be mutual. If you commit to Clemson then you are committed. If you take other visits then you aren't committed and you are likely going to lose your offer. If a kid honors his committment to Clemson then it will be honored and no dirty pool like Louisville pulled with Matt Colburn pulling his offer and trying to replace it with an undiscussed greyshirt at the last minute.
12-31-2018 04:06 PM
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quo vadis Online
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
It is coaching. Alabama had loads of talent before Saban arrived but was mired in mediocrity. Twenty years ago so was Oklahoma before Stoops arrived. Florida won nothing in 90 years before Spurrier arrived. It goes on and on.

Saban, Dabo, and Urban are the three best coaches.
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 05:42 PM by quo vadis.)
12-31-2018 05:40 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
Alabama players are clearly on PEDs and Clemson is the best overall football program?
Let's me honest here. Alabama destroys everybody. There is something clearly not legit with that.
Attack me as you wish, I don't care, because I'll bet you don't know what's really going on inside the Tide's football program either!
12-31-2018 10:39 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 10:39 PM)Retroview1955 Wrote:  Alabama players are clearly on PEDs and Clemson is the best overall football program?
Let's me honest here. Alabama destroys everybody. There is something clearly not legit with that.
Attack me as you wish, I don't care, because I'll bet you don't know what's really going on inside the Tide's football program either!

THEY CHEATIN' PAWWWWLLLL
12-31-2018 10:59 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 10:39 PM)Retroview1955 Wrote:  Alabama players are clearly on PEDs and Clemson is the best overall football program?
Let's me honest here. Alabama destroys everybody. There is something clearly not legit with that.
Attack me as you wish, I don't care, because I'll bet you don't know what's really going on inside the Tide's football program either!

They had to pee in the cup the same as Clemson and came up clean.
12-31-2018 11:01 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
We’re watching 2 of if not the greatest coaches of all time simultaneously.
12-31-2018 11:06 PM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 11:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 10:39 PM)Retroview1955 Wrote:  Alabama players are clearly on PEDs and Clemson is the best overall football program?

Let's me honest here. Alabama destroys everybody. There is something clearly not legit with that.

Attack me as you wish, I don't care, because I'll bet you don't know what's really going on inside the Tide's football program either!

They had to pee in the cup the same as Clemson and came up clean.

I don't see any particular reason to believe that Bama or Clemson are cheating any more than anybody else at a high level program ...

... but that said, Lance Armstrong peed in a lot of cups on the way to a lot of drug-assisted Yellow Jerseys at the Tour de France.
01-01-2019 01:08 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 03:59 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 03:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I absolutely agree with this. Now let's carry it to another step. Why? Both Saban and Swinney are developing the talent they get. But Saban has a slight advantage and it's not money. Saban does a fantastic assessment of the teachability of the prospective recruits. He will take a teachable kid with slightly less talent over a head case all day long.

Most of those other top 25 coaches don't want alums breathing down their neck on signing day so they go for the flashy kids with the most stars by their name so that the rating services will tell their boosters how great they've done. But those head cases aren't developed, frequently cause dissension on the team, and leave when they don't get their way causing more issues.

In the case of most of these coaches they plug the stars into a system that is never fully explained, or grasped, and rely on their raw talent to win. Fundamentals of the position, of how to read a developing play, and team concept get lost in the shuffle. The result are losses.

Snyder and Petersen have won getting a lot more out of the 3 star kids than many of the rest of the top 25 schools. Had Snyder coached at Ohio State, or Petersen at Texas the results might have been 2 more rivals for Saban and Swinney. BTW Swinney is a pretty good evaluator as well.

True.

Saban doesn't put up with crap from anyone. He's not going to put up with a prima donna. He's up front with recruits: they may hate the coaches while they're there, but they have a process to get them to the NFL, and if the players follow it, they have a good shot to get there. So, top prospects go to Bama, and if they do things Saban's way, things will work out for them. If a guy is a head case, he won't last in Tuscaloosa, even if he is a mega-5 star recruit.

Also, Bama has many, many big boosters, but they trust Saban to do his thing and leave him alone.

Dabo's strength is that he knows what his strengths and weaknesses are. He is not an X's and O's coach as much as he is an administrator and recruiter. He knows how to recruit, and he knows how to make boosters happy. He can relate to players, and knows how to obtain what he needs to provide the best facilities possible. He is also not threatened by others who are better offensive and defensive minds. He gives his assistant coaches the tools they need to succeed, and provides an environment in which players and coaches want to stay. Clemson always had the resources and the recruiting territory. They now have a guy that can connect all the dots and have everyone pull on the same rope. I also don't think Dabo could go home to Alabama and have the same success. He fits best where he is.

If you recruit the best players, then give them the tools they need to succeed at this level, you will win big. Alabama and Clemson are the best at this. The rest of us need to beat them.

I saw him put a player back in after hitting a coach in the title game last year. So him not putting up with stuff is bs. He’s a great coach because he keeps a bunch of college kids on an even keel.
01-01-2019 01:49 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
And Saban recruits the best players. Just look at the recruiting rankings the last ten years
01-01-2019 01:51 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
There has also been a large pile up of 1st & 2nd round NFL talent choosing Alabama especially, a little less Ohio State, and recently coming up at Clemson.

Saban is not a great coach, and really was shown up for below average mediocrity in the NFL where talent is much more balanced. Nobody runs a Saban offense or defense(ditto Dabo). But what these guys have, and the edge I think they have over Urban Meyer's almost equal NFL talent, is superior organizational skills.

Saban brought corporate football to Alabama and is ahead of the game, with everyone else playing catch up. Those 25 schools you list are the ones with the resources to catch up. But it will take a decade for a balanced field. Clemson, especially if Swinney resists the NFL, is the first one to catch up. Others may match Alabama in staffers, but they are not as well organized yet.

I do wonder if the playoffs were expanded to 8 instead of 4 if the talent might distribute more balanced among those 25 schools. That would mean choosing Michigan or Oregon or Florida instead of Clemson or Alabama, your chances of making a serious title run would not be too dramatically different, as more opportunity would be available.

This wont of course close the organizational gap, but like the NFL it's a copy cat league, and everyone is learning as fast as they can how to build a Tuscaloosa type of corporate organization. In short what we see now, with two schools dominating, may not hold true in five years, we could be seeing again 8 or 9 schools competing.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2019 02:32 AM by Stugray2.)
01-01-2019 02:31 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
I’m slowly working through a Paul Brown biography.
In general he seemed to never particularly enjoy winning except for championship games. In a regular game he was more bothered by what went wrong in a win than able to enjoy what went right.

His work was practice, planning, training, in-game play calling.

Losses hurt him deeply because he saw it as a failure in his process. Whether calling the wrong play, having the wrong guy on the field or failing to train the players to not screw his game up.

I think most coaches judge Wednesday’s practice vs Tuesday’s practice instead of perfection. A guy like Saban doesn’t go into a game looking to outwit the opponent with great play calls but rather having great players who don’t screw up.
01-01-2019 05:16 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(01-01-2019 02:31 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There has also been a large pile up of 1st & 2nd round NFL talent choosing Alabama especially, a little less Ohio State, and recently coming up at Clemson.

Saban is not a great coach, and really was shown up for below average mediocrity in the NFL where talent is much more balanced. Nobody runs a Saban offense or defense(ditto Dabo). But what these guys have, and the edge I think they have over Urban Meyer's almost equal NFL talent, is superior organizational skills.

Saban brought corporate football to Alabama and is ahead of the game, with everyone else playing catch up. Those 25 schools you list are the ones with the resources to catch up. But it will take a decade for a balanced field. Clemson, especially if Swinney resists the NFL, is the first one to catch up. Others may match Alabama in staffers, but they are not as well organized yet.

I do wonder if the playoffs were expanded to 8 instead of 4 if the talent might distribute more balanced among those 25 schools. That would mean choosing Michigan or Oregon or Florida instead of Clemson or Alabama, your chances of making a serious title run would not be too dramatically different, as more opportunity would be available.

This wont of course close the organizational gap, but like the NFL it's a copy cat league, and everyone is learning as fast as they can how to build a Tuscaloosa type of corporate organization. In short what we see now, with two schools dominating, may not hold true in five years, we could be seeing again 8 or 9 schools competing.

It goes without saying that everyone tries to copy the most successful regardless of what sport, industry or even charity that we may focus on. That's the end of the similarity between CFB and the NFL. I think the obvious lack of parity (even limited parity) in the game is terrible. I'm amazed that the game is as popular as it is given the fact that year over year success at the top levels is more or less limited to the top 25 - 30 revenue generating schools in all FBS. Expanding the CFP by 4 more or even 12 more really doesn't do much for the game to address imbalances; however, it sure as hell will generate more interest in the end from those fans whose own juggernauts happened to fall short. In the end, you'll see more of the top 25 revenue generators in the playoffs annually while a couple of token slots will be thrown to the unwashed masses...

Saban has a structural advantage that very few schools will ever be able to copy. It's a sad state of affairs when the primary reason for why college athletics were created falls by the wayside in order to emulate the minor leagues of a professional sport.
01-01-2019 08:23 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(12-31-2018 11:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 10:39 PM)Retroview1955 Wrote:  Alabama players are clearly on PEDs and Clemson is the best overall football program?
Let's me honest here. Alabama destroys everybody. There is something clearly not legit with that.
Attack me as you wish, I don't care, because I'll bet you don't know what's really going on inside the Tide's football program either!

They had to pee in the cup the same as Clemson and came up clean.

Now, JR, you KNOW Saban has an army of "analysts" to pee for them!!!
01-01-2019 08:29 AM
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RE: This is why we are getting Clemson-Bama for the 4th year in a row
(01-01-2019 08:23 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I think the obvious lack of parity (even limited parity) in the game is terrible. I'm amazed that the game is as popular as it is given the fact that year over year success at the top levels is more or less limited to the top 25 - 30 revenue generating schools in all FBS.

This is the attitude that fans of striver-G5 programs have that IMO reflects a lack of understanding of mainstream college football culture. Fans of schools like Memphis, Houston, Boise, USF, etc. that are trying to 'break in to the club' think its awful that the powers that be haven't created a diamond-lined red carpet for their schools to stroll in to the club, but it's really not that hard to understand: I've been following major college football for 50 years, and it has always been the way you describe it as 'awful', namely dominance by a few programs. In the 1970s, you could set your watch by Notre Dame and USC and Alabama being powerful, Oklahoma and Nebraska vying for the Big 8 title, Texas in the SWC, and Bo vs Woody battling for the Big 10. With independents Pitt and Penn State in the east fighting their way into the mix (they were the *original* independent outsider to crash the club).

The history of college football, kind of like of MLB, is a history of dominant programs and dynasties. And, the great bulk of football fans like it that way. That's why the sport became a major sport and has a 130 year legacy.

And it is a pattern not uncommon in other sports. E.g., college hoops and the NBA both became truly major in the 1960s, a time when the Celtics and UCLA were winning almost every year. People like dymasties and dominant historic programs.

The model that G5 fans prefer, a model that results in a "levelling" of sorts where schools like Memphis and ECU and San Diego State eventually rise up while schools like Michigan and USC and Alabama lose *relative* power is undesired by everyone but fans of those striver schools. I think it would result in the decline of college football as a whole.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2019 08:58 AM by quo vadis.)
01-01-2019 08:45 AM
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