(12-27-2018 04:11 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:28 AM)tcountytigerfan Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:09 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(12-26-2018 11:00 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  I liked TW but I never tagged him as a hero for his parting speech. The program was turning and his personal life was also. He had the same opp as the coaches that came before him and up until recently. Never enough but it was reality from the day he was hired.

I'm the same. No, we weren't doing enough for football. But everyone knew it and his speech struck me as excuses and sour grapes. That speech did not contribute to turning the tide for football. A realization of being left behind in the expansion race (with the money lost), and some aggressive booster involvement did - as well as the departures of Raines, RC, and Cal.

I liked TW too. I was also at that New Orleans Bowl and count it as one of the best Tigers experiences I've ever had. And I know it was frustrating the way the department was being run. But he quit trying and just started cashing checks.

That's flat-out wrong. I agree with your other points, but that speech was the watershed moment for the turn-around. To say that it did not contribute is grossly inaccurate. Tommy said what many fans felt. That speech was picked up by national media. The folks on Normal still fumbled around (Larry Porter), but that speech was the tipping point for the changes ahead.

You don’t follow watershed momements by hiring Larry Porter. That was a no confidence, zero commitment hire.

Letting TW have a mic was a no leadership screwup.

TW with the mic was emotional diarrhea not an attempt to bolster support for the program. He hurt the program that and before then lost the momentum he benefited from with Rips players. TW needed to look inward before he embarrassed the university on a national stage.

Just because TW said some things that rang close to true, things that were well known to the average fan, doesn’t mean he gets credit for some positive things a few years later.

In his last five years he had 2 seasons above .500, barely, and two seasons that were 2-10 for a overall record of 24-38. Losing record at UT-Chat, 31-28 at Clemson, losing record at Memphis, losing record overall as a head coach. 15 years of history in three different leagues is a good sampling to confirm TW was no better than an average coach regardless of resources.

Dude, you are high. He was COMPLETELY right. And without him saying it in such a public manor, we would have gotten the same-o-same-o from the Shirley Raines RC machine that was running the show at the time. Larry Porter was a good-faith effort that failed, but that was the first time in my life that Tiger Football was set as a priority.

(12-27-2018 10:28 AM)tcountytigerfan Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:09 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(12-26-2018 11:00 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  I liked TW but I never tagged him as a hero for his parting speech. The program was turning and his personal life was also. He had the same opp as the coaches that came before him and up until recently. Never enough but it was reality from the day he was hired.

I'm the same. No, we weren't doing enough for football. But everyone knew it and his speech struck me as excuses and sour grapes. That speech did not contribute to turning the tide for football. A realization of being left behind in the expansion race (with the money lost), and some aggressive booster involvement did - as well as the departures of Raines, RC, and Cal.

I liked TW too. I was also at that New Orleans Bowl and count it as one of the best Tigers experiences I've ever had. And I know it was frustrating the way the department was being run. But he quit trying and just started cashing checks.

That's flat-out wrong. I agree with your other points, but that speech was the watershed moment for the turn-around. To say that it did not contribute is grossly inaccurate. Tommy said what many fans felt. That speech was picked up by national media. The folks on Normal still fumbled around (Larry Porter), but that speech was the tipping point for the changes ahead.

I just disagree with you.

The proof to me is what happened after the speech...nothing. We bumbled around and hired Porter. The budget didn't change. Revenue didn't change. We missed the next wave of conference expansion. We even missed the next wave of Big East expansion, seeing other CUSA programs taken before us.

The speech got a lot of play because it was good drama for the ESPN folks. It may have opened some eyes of folks who weren't close to the situation. But I just don't see anything tangible resulting from it.

The exit of RC, Raines, and Cal; the ensuing involvement of Fred, Alan, Brad; and the additions of Rudd, Bowen, Fuente - those are the keys to the turnaround. That speech was not really an impetus for any of that. I don't think there was a single catalyst or watershed moment. Instead it was a realization of being left behind, and aligning resources to do something about it.

If someone made me choose a single moment, I'd say it's when Cal left. That had the impact of freeing up resources (upon which he had a stranglehold), along with exposing RC. Then the NCAA probation came, RC was retired, and Fred/Alan/Brad (not to mention Bill) all got much more involved.

I side with 87.

West said some incredibly raw and truthy things that day, but we still woke up the next morning not wanting to do a damned thing about it. After a couple of days, it was a non-story and we were still very much lost in the wilderness.

The institutional changes came well after West's final day on the job.

Basically I've adopted the Norse religion, it helps with being a tiger fan.

Basically be the best you can be, then if you die honorably you get to go to heaven and party with the rest of the good people. Until the Ice Giants attack all of you- and in that an all out final battle you and your good people lose. After you loose the earth and heaven will be destroyed and you and everything you know and love will be lost to oblivion.

When you look at our bowl game vs that alternative... it ain't that bad a game really.

(12-25-2018 10:56 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  

(12-23-2018 10:28 AM)memphisike Wrote:  Maybe Tommy will take the D. C. Job
He did well with Ripp's recruits, so well he was named H.C. after one season
Ripp played a tough OOC SCHEDULE and was landing decent recruits and after he left
The CUPCAKES a staple on the menu, because we needed to go to meaningless bowl games
And we actually lost money

You also forgot that Rip was fired because he never had a single winning season and Coach West took us to a bowl game for the first time in three decades.

We might've lost money as far as the specific bowl, but the overall program benefited, even though our administration didn't really care that much about football.

Why keep saying that FO,,,,,,

Of course the administration cared.

Calipari was the Tigers' #1 football fan and tried to tell the brass how to do it right.

As long as RC and Shirley were here football was gonna suffer.

(12-27-2018 04:19 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 04:11 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:28 AM)tcountytigerfan Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:09 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(12-26-2018 11:00 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  I liked TW but I never tagged him as a hero for his parting speech. The program was turning and his personal life was also. He had the same opp as the coaches that came before him and up until recently. Never enough but it was reality from the day he was hired.

I'm the same. No, we weren't doing enough for football. But everyone knew it and his speech struck me as excuses and sour grapes. That speech did not contribute to turning the tide for football. A realization of being left behind in the expansion race (with the money lost), and some aggressive booster involvement did - as well as the departures of Raines, RC, and Cal.

I liked TW too. I was also at that New Orleans Bowl and count it as one of the best Tigers experiences I've ever had. And I know it was frustrating the way the department was being run. But he quit trying and just started cashing checks.

That's flat-out wrong. I agree with your other points, but that speech was the watershed moment for the turn-around. To say that it did not contribute is grossly inaccurate. Tommy said what many fans felt. That speech was picked up by national media. The folks on Normal still fumbled around (Larry Porter), but that speech was the tipping point for the changes ahead.

You don’t follow watershed momements by hiring Larry Porter. That was a no confidence, zero commitment hire.

Letting TW have a mic was a no leadership screwup.

TW with the mic was emotional diarrhea not an attempt to bolster support for the program. He hurt the program that and before then lost the momentum he benefited from with Rips players. TW needed to look inward before he embarrassed the university on a national stage.

Just because TW said some things that rang close to true, things that were well known to the average fan, doesn’t mean he gets credit for some positive things a few years later.

In his last five years he had 2 seasons above .500, barely, and two seasons that were 2-10 for a overall record of 24-38. Losing record at UT-Chat, 31-28 at Clemson, losing record at Memphis, losing record overall as a head coach. 15 years of history in three different leagues is a good sampling to confirm TW was no better than an average coach regardless of resources.

Dude, you are high. He was COMPLETELY right. And without him saying it in such a public manor, we would have gotten the same-o-same-o from the Shirley Raines RC machine that was running the show at the time. Larry Porter was a good-faith effort that failed, but that the first time in my life that Tiger Football was set as a priority.

No, not high. Not in a very long time. Larry was a what, 5th or 6th choice. A Tiger who had been a recruiter but little else. Not sure I would call that a good faith effort. In 2012, Bowen was a football guy, a football hire. A Shirley Raines hire I believe. SR retired in 2013 and Rudd was hired in 2014. A good hire. A football positive hire.

SR absolutely made an academics over athletics decision in her leadership. Many of the projects that have been finished and started or soon to start were SR plans. She doesn’t get enough credit for that but athletics was not on the front burner.

Now here is what I think made football a priority;
1. Justin Fuente hired as coach in 2012 by that tired old SR administration.
1A. Raines hired Bowen in 2012, a FB guy,
2. Brad Martin in 2013 was named interim president, a BB and FB guy,
3. David Rudd in 2014 was hired as president, a guy that said academics and athletics can prosper,
4. Between Martin and Rudd, the BoV, Fred Smith and a small group of big money people stepped forward. They laid the plans and began carrying them out.

You want to give TW credit for all of that? Go ahead. I don’t. I don’t think Tommy West to a high degree influenced any of those people who are all successful without his input. In fact I can tell you one person on that list thought what TW did was unprofessional and immature, my words but I won’t use the language they used.

I think I recall it was not Shirley Raines nor RC that were responsible for any of those hires you cited, but a search committee made up of boosters and BoV, or something to that effect. It is all rather hazy in my mind now, seems like a lifetime ago. All I know is, I was on top of it back then, and I don't EVER remember saying "okay SR... okay RC.... good hire. Way to go." I'm sure there are those who were closer to the sitch that could recite it by verse.

(12-27-2018 10:55 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  I think I recall it was not Shirley Raines nor RC that were responsible for any of those hires you cited, but a search committee made up of boosters and BoV, or something to that effect. It is all rather hazy in my mind now, seems like a lifetime ago. All I know is, I was on top of it back then, and I don't EVER remember saying "okay SR... okay RC.... good hire. Way to go." I'm sure there are those who were closer to the sitch that could recite it by verse.

They were definitely responsible. They were in charge. Sports didn’t mean that much to Shirley and RC was just.... well, he was just RC.

I'm talking about the hires Tigerx3 listed.

(12-27-2018 08:51 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 04:19 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 04:11 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:28 AM)tcountytigerfan Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:09 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  I'm the same. No, we weren't doing enough for football. But everyone knew it and his speech struck me as excuses and sour grapes. That speech did not contribute to turning the tide for football. A realization of being left behind in the expansion race (with the money lost), and some aggressive booster involvement did - as well as the departures of Raines, RC, and Cal.

I liked TW too. I was also at that New Orleans Bowl and count it as one of the best Tigers experiences I've ever had. And I know it was frustrating the way the department was being run. But he quit trying and just started cashing checks.

That's flat-out wrong. I agree with your other points, but that speech was the watershed moment for the turn-around. To say that it did not contribute is grossly inaccurate. Tommy said what many fans felt. That speech was picked up by national media. The folks on Normal still fumbled around (Larry Porter), but that speech was the tipping point for the changes ahead.

You don’t follow watershed momements by hiring Larry Porter. That was a no confidence, zero commitment hire.

Letting TW have a mic was a no leadership screwup.

TW with the mic was emotional diarrhea not an attempt to bolster support for the program. He hurt the program that and before then lost the momentum he benefited from with Rips players. TW needed to look inward before he embarrassed the university on a national stage.

Just because TW said some things that rang close to true, things that were well known to the average fan, doesn’t mean he gets credit for some positive things a few years later.

In his last five years he had 2 seasons above .500, barely, and two seasons that were 2-10 for a overall record of 24-38. Losing record at UT-Chat, 31-28 at Clemson, losing record at Memphis, losing record overall as a head coach. 15 years of history in three different leagues is a good sampling to confirm TW was no better than an average coach regardless of resources.

Dude, you are high. He was COMPLETELY right. And without him saying it in such a public manor, we would have gotten the same-o-same-o from the Shirley Raines RC machine that was running the show at the time. Larry Porter was a good-faith effort that failed, but that the first time in my life that Tiger Football was set as a priority.

No, not high. Not in a very long time. Larry was a what, 5th or 6th choice. A Tiger who had been a recruiter but little else. Not sure I would call that a good faith effort. In 2012, Bowen was a football guy, a football hire. A Shirley Raines hire I believe. SR retired in 2013 and Rudd was hired in 2014. A good hire. A football positive hire.

SR absolutely made an academics over athletics decision in her leadership. Many of the projects that have been finished and started or soon to start were SR plans. She doesn’t get enough credit for that but athletics was not on the front burner.

Now here is what I think made football a priority;
1. Justin Fuente hired as coach in 2012 by that tired old SR administration.
1A. Raines hired Bowen in 2012, a FB guy,
2. Brad Martin in 2013 was named interim president, a BB and FB guy,
3. David Rudd in 2014 was hired as president, a guy that said academics and athletics can prosper,
4. Between Martin and Rudd, the BoV, Fred Smith and a small group of big money people stepped forward. They laid the plans and began carrying them out.

You want to give TW credit for all of that? Go ahead. I don’t. I don’t think Tommy West to a high degree influenced any of those people who are all successful without his input. In fact I can tell you one person on that list thought what TW did was unprofessional and immature, my words but I won’t use the language they used.

Make no mistake, Alan Graf hired Tom Bowen. Fuente was found by a search firm, and I believe that search firm was reporting to Graf as well, but I could be wrong on that one.

Raines - like her entire tenure at Memphis - was hands off on athletics, delegating the hires. Plus, it was pretty obvious to all involved that she would be retiring very soon.

That's what I was thinking.

(12-25-2018 10:49 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  

(12-23-2018 10:20 AM)memphisike Wrote:  Ditching the CUPCAKES will add a couple of losses, but eventually we will add better recruits and if we play
Wake, Nebraska, Minnesota, Indiana, Illinois Rutgers Maryland, all teams we could of certainly hung with
This yr I think it only helps in recruiting and hopefully puts fans in the seats.
As I recall we had a great crowd for ucla last yr, plus 11.00 a.m. game with temps in the 90's
BTW, we won that game and found ourselves in the Liberty bowl. I wonder if there was a attempt to
Schedule Iowa state after that thriller.
I doubt it

We had the best recruiting class in our history and best in G5. You statement has absolutely no basis in fact. It's an opinion with nothing really to back it up.

Last year we had great crowds against SIU and ECU as well. Crowds deal more with our wins than anything else. We also play two G5s (although one was cancelled) and a FCS last year as well... oh wait, the same format as this season.

As far as Iowa State, since their coach was the only one that didn't give Memphis a vote in the poll after Championship week and remarked that he didn't even know who we were, I could care less about playing them.

We're not attempting to just compete with G5s, we want to be attractive to the B12 - but you know that, right? Also, it is factual that we had our best attendance against UCLA that season, an 11AM start. And our best attendance historically has been against P5 schools (yes Louisville was once an exception as a big rivalry game, just like UCF & UH draw well). We also do OK, attendance-wise against most anyone as an opener but we do best against a P5. Relative to ISU, who cares what their coach says, the LB was full & we desperately need games against schools to bring fans. We need to avg 40K-45k & we won't do that unless we win & also schedule stronger opponents.

(12-27-2018 10:55 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  I think I recall it was not Shirley Raines nor RC that were responsible for any of those hires you cited, but a search committee made up of boosters and BoV, or something to that effect. It is all rather hazy in my mind now, seems like a lifetime ago. All I know is, I was on top of it back then, and I don't EVER remember saying "okay SR... okay RC.... good hire. Way to go." I'm sure there are those who were closer to the sitch that could recite it by verse.

I knew that one was coming. My answer is if you blame somebody for things not going the way you want when they are in charge you have to give them credit when they empower people to do the things you like when they are in charge. A good leader empowers people to do a good job with tasks they have been given. If you’ve ever been in a leadership/ decision-making position you know that as well as I do.

Why don’t you just leave it with the understanding we disagree.

(12-28-2018 12:38 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:55 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  I think I recall it was not Shirley Raines nor RC that were responsible for any of those hires you cited, but a search committee made up of boosters and BoV, or something to that effect. It is all rather hazy in my mind now, seems like a lifetime ago. All I know is, I was on top of it back then, and I don't EVER remember saying "okay SR... okay RC.... good hire. Way to go." I'm sure there are those who were closer to the sitch that could recite it by verse.

I knew that one was coming. My answer is if you blame somebody for things not going the way you want when they are in charge you have to give them credit when they empower people to do the things you like when they are in charge. A good leader empowers people to do a good job with tasks they have been given. If you’ve ever been in a leadership/ decision-making position you know that as well as I do.

Why don’t you just leave it with the understanding we disagree.

I'd rather get to the bottom of... do we disagree, or are we being disagreeable. I'm just saying what I remember to be the case. It appears Tiger87 has backed me up on my memory. I'm not a fan of revisionist history. Tommy was fighting the administration on the daily, that much I DO remember.

(12-28-2018 06:33 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  

(12-28-2018 12:38 PM)Tigerx3 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 10:55 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  I think I recall it was not Shirley Raines nor RC that were responsible for any of those hires you cited, but a search committee made up of boosters and BoV, or something to that effect. It is all rather hazy in my mind now, seems like a lifetime ago. All I know is, I was on top of it back then, and I don't EVER remember saying "okay SR... okay RC.... good hire. Way to go." I'm sure there are those who were closer to the sitch that could recite it by verse.

I knew that one was coming. My answer is if you blame somebody for things not going the way you want when they are in charge you have to give them credit when they empower people to do the things you like when they are in charge. A good leader empowers people to do a good job with tasks they have been given. If you’ve ever been in a leadership/ decision-making position you know that as well as I do.

Why don’t you just leave it with the understanding we disagree.

I'd rather get to the bottom of... do we disagree, or are we being disagreeable. I'm just saying what I remember to be the case. It appears Tiger87 has backed me up on my memory. I'm not a fan of revisionist history. Tommy was fighting the administration on the daily, that much I DO remember.

RC hired Porter, period! And it was because boosters were starting to get involved and he wanted to exercise his power.

The search committee gave them five coaches, Fuente was NOT hired by a search firm.

Coach West gave up because he had a totally inept AD that was in the back pocket of a basketball coach that publicly said things, but privately threatened to quit if football got any increase in budgets. Yes, Coach West blew a gasket when he had a recruit in his office that commented to his dad about how bad the offices looked and how they couldn't hear Coach West over the noise of them laying down the new hardwood floors in the basketball offices overhead.

(12-27-2018 07:34 PM)k2tigers Wrote:  

(12-25-2018 10:56 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  

(12-23-2018 10:28 AM)memphisike Wrote:  Maybe Tommy will take the D. C. Job
He did well with Ripp's recruits, so well he was named H.C. after one season
Ripp played a tough OOC SCHEDULE and was landing decent recruits and after he left
The CUPCAKES a staple on the menu, because we needed to go to meaningless bowl games
And we actually lost money

You also forgot that Rip was fired because he never had a single winning season and Coach West took us to a bowl game for the first time in three decades.

We might've lost money as far as the specific bowl, but the overall program benefited, even though our administration didn't really care that much about football.

Why keep saying that FO,,,,,,

Of course the administration cared.

Calipari was the Tigers' #1 football fan and tried to tell the brass how to do it right.

Winner for the funniest post I have EVER read on this forum!!!

(12-29-2018 12:32 AM)tigernole79 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 07:34 PM)k2tigers Wrote:  

(12-25-2018 10:56 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  

(12-23-2018 10:28 AM)memphisike Wrote:  Maybe Tommy will take the D. C. Job
He did well with Ripp's recruits, so well he was named H.C. after one season
Ripp played a tough OOC SCHEDULE and was landing decent recruits and after he left
The CUPCAKES a staple on the menu, because we needed to go to meaningless bowl games
And we actually lost money

You also forgot that Rip was fired because he never had a single winning season and Coach West took us to a bowl game for the first time in three decades.

We might've lost money as far as the specific bowl, but the overall program benefited, even though our administration didn't really care that much about football.

Why keep saying that FO,,,,,,

Of course the administration cared.

Calipari was the Tigers' #1 football fan and tried to tell the brass how to do it right.

Winner for the funniest post I have EVER read on this forum!!!

What's so funny, FO?

Well, if nobody else is gonna do it, I will....