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A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
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atsKnight Offline
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Post: #241
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 03:46 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  But just a friendly piece of advice....if you thought Tang was mean earlier you'd be best served to hold your tongue.

I always do my best.
12-27-2018 08:30 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #242
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:27 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-27-2018 03:56 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  However, when the exact same phraseology (and usually word for word) is used that the mainstream media/pundits/late night "comedians" used then it's just parroting a talking point.

Not necessarily. I hear the same things on here over and over. That doesn't mean everyone is in cahoots.

I keep being told over and over again about how people aren't huge fans of Trump but Hillary was a terrible candidate. If y'all heard the liberal equivalent of that, you would shout, "NPC! NPC!".

I just figured that y'all have enough people here that are trying to get you to say that you regret voting for Trump that it's easier to just have a canned response ready. Doesn't mean Fox News told you to say it.

The difference is you don't hear the strawman you are propping up from all conservatives here. For example, I've never said anything close to what you said. The only Democrat in the race I would have even remotely considered voting for was Webb. Clinton had a grand total of zero positions that were aligned with mine, and there's no way in hell I would ever vote for a socialist.

But I admire your spirited defense of the board leftists from such an avowed "centrist" like you. Like my Grandaddy always said: "Show me someone who calls themselves a centrist and I'll show you someone who's too ashamed to admit he's a democrat."
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2018 08:38 PM by Kaplony.)
12-27-2018 08:37 PM
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Post: #243
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:27 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-27-2018 03:56 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  However, when the exact same phraseology (and usually word for word) is used that the mainstream media/pundits/late night "comedians" used then it's just parroting a talking point.
Not necessarily. I hear the same things on here over and over. That doesn't mean everyone is in cahoots.
I keep being told over and over again about how people aren't huge fans of Trump but Hillary was a terrible candidate. If y'all heard the liberal equivalent of that, you would shout, "NPC! NPC!".
I just figured that y'all have enough people here that are trying to get you to say that you regret voting for Trump that it's easier to just have a canned response ready. Doesn't mean Fox News told you to say it.

I don't regret voting for Trump because I didn't vote for him. I registered democrat, punting local elections, and voted for Hillary in the primary because I thought stopping Bernie was absolutely critical. I had voted for her in the 2008 primary for the same reason. I voted for Gary Johnson in the general because 1) my vote didn't matter in Texas (and if it did matter in Texas, it sure as hell was not going to matter nationally), and 2) I found myself not agreeing with either Hillary or Trump on more than about 10-20% of what either stood for. So far, Trump has been better than I expected.

I really don't understand the visceral, emotional, irrational hatred that the right had for all things Clinton, just as I don't understand the visceral, emotional, irrational hatred that the left has for all things Trump. I think the country would be a whole lot better off if both extremes got rid of those hatreds, but I don't see it happening.
12-27-2018 08:39 PM
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atsKnight Offline
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Post: #244
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 04:03 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The vast majority of your contributions here are accusing everyone else of arguing in bad faith, and saying what you aren't saying. This is how you got Trump. 07-coffee3

There could be other reasons Trump won, though. Right?

(12-27-2018 04:03 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  There is difference in media coverage based on who the intended victim is..... and it's really not debatable.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. But my guess is that whatever you're saying is debatable and half the country would debate it.
12-27-2018 08:40 PM
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atsKnight Offline
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Post: #245
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 04:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  I rarely have a discussion with a republican friend where you don’t hear. “I wish he wouldn’t tweet so much. A lot of people don’t like him. They approve of the job (excepting the tweets!)

If that were the case, his favorables would be low, but job approval high. They're both historically high among Republicans compared to other presidents at the same point in their administration.
12-27-2018 08:43 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #246
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:43 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-27-2018 04:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  I rarely have a discussion with a republican friend where you don’t hear. “I wish he wouldn’t tweet so much. A lot of people don’t like him. They approve of the job (excepting the tweets!)
If that were the case, his favorables would be low, but job approval high. They're both historically high among Republicans compared to other presidents at the same point in their administration.

Every time the likes of Bernie or Fauxcohontas Warren or Kamala Harris opens his/her mouth, Trump looks better to conservatives.

I would say that, for example, evangelical conservatives saw the 2016 election as a contest between a terrible sinner and the devil personified. I don't agree that Hillary is the devil personified. But I would say that Bernie and Warren and Harris come pretty close.

That's what I think you are not getting--just how extreme democrats have moved in the last 10 years or so, and just how much conservatives hate that. Hillary, Obama, and Biden were on the left wing of the democrats in 2008. Now Hillary is on the right wing, and Obama and Biden are in the middle.
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2018 08:50 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-27-2018 08:47 PM
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atsKnight Offline
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Post: #247
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 06:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think our OP has succumbed to the notion that people support Trump because they like him. They don't. They support him because the alternative is Hillary or Pelosi or Schumer or Bernie or Fauxcohontas Warren or Kamala Harris or Robert O'Rourke.

I do believe that people support Trump because they like him. There are two well-documented ways that pollsters rate politicians: job approval and favorability.

These ratings aren't a zero sum game. They don't have to say they like Trump because they don't like Schumer. Look at the election. Trump was the most disliked candidate since they started asking the question. Hillary was the second most disliked.

If people just supported Trump, he would have high job approval but low favorability. I haven't seen a poll that says that. Every poll I've seen says that SINCE THE ELECTION, the majority of Republicans say they like what he's doing AND they feel at least above average about him. On both, a higher percentage than previous Republican presidents (if you take W's pre-911 numbers).

If you can show me some polls that say otherwise, great. But right now, the only evidence I'm hearing that Republicans support but don't like Trump is anecdotal evidence from this board.
12-27-2018 08:56 PM
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atsKnight Offline
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Post: #248
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Every time the likes of Bernie or Fauxcohontas Warren or Kamala Harris opens his/her mouth, Trump looks better to conservatives.

I would say that, for example, evangelical conservatives saw the 2016 election as a contest between a terrible sinner and the devil personified. I don't agree that Hillary is the devil personified. But I would say that Bernie and Warren and Harris come pretty close.

That's what I think you are not getting--just how extreme democrats have moved in the last 10 years or so, and just how much conservatives hate that. Hillary, Obama, and Biden were on the left wing of the democrats in 2008. Now Hillary is on the right wing, and Obama and Biden are in the middle.

If that were the case, wouldn't the favorables be up for all Republicans?
12-27-2018 08:57 PM
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atsKnight Offline
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RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:39 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I really don't understand the visceral, emotional, irrational hatred that the right had for all things Clinton, just as I don't understand the visceral, emotional, irrational hatred that the left has for all things Trump. I think the country would be a whole lot better off if both extremes got rid of those hatreds, but I don't see it happening.

Agreed
12-27-2018 08:58 PM
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RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 02:14 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  If the Democrats wanted to play a sure win, they would pivot center. The current Democratic Party doesnt have that ability currently. The current cast is a sharp veer leftwards from Hillary; and they to a tee broadcast the same message of identity politics and an absolute disdain for anything that isnt in their narrow view of 'Rule by Judicial Fiat via Living Constitution'.

None of Harris, Booker, Biden, and any of the other supposed runners seem to even think to 'center' their party -- they are running a Chinese fire drill to see who can get the leftest the fastest.

Agreed
12-27-2018 08:59 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #251
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:59 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-27-2018 02:14 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  If the Democrats wanted to play a sure win, they would pivot center. The current Democratic Party doesnt have that ability currently. The current cast is a sharp veer leftwards from Hillary; and they to a tee broadcast the same message of identity politics and an absolute disdain for anything that isnt in their narrow view of 'Rule by Judicial Fiat via Living Constitution'.
None of Harris, Booker, Biden, and any of the other supposed runners seem to even think to 'center' their party -- they are running a Chinese fire drill to see who can get the leftest the fastest.
Agreed

Exactly.
12-27-2018 11:24 PM
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RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-22-2018 09:39 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-22-2018 09:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-22-2018 09:01 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  I've tried to make this point before, but it's fallen on deaf ears. I'll try again, for some reason.
No one is blaming conservatives for voting for Trump anymore.
Trump's election was a surprise, but not a massive one. They were the two most disliked candidates ever, one rising above the other isn't shocking.
What is shocking is how closely conservatives have grown to Trump. How vehemently they defend him. They seem to harbor secret reservations, but seem to have only the ability to whisper them (from my perspective).
How the people that thought Hilary's email server and Bill Clinton meeting Loretta Lynch on a plane were historical scandals but became so laid back about Trump's many, many, far worse transgressions is a mystery to anyone not in that 40% that always loves him no matter what.
I didn't start this thread to pick a fight about Trump. I truly wanted to figure out what philosophy could bend and support people as varied as GWB, Paul Ryan, Mattis, and Trump (who seem like they're from different planets to me).
But I understand that it's tough to evaluate yourself and I don't regret trying.

I think most conservatives I know are not nearly so enamored of Trump as they are totally disgusted with what the democrats have on offer. He is far more an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of president then one that conservatives actually like. I don't care for Trump and did not vote for him. But if he is what is standing between me and the likes of Bernie Sanders or Fauxcohontas Warren or Kamala Harris or Cory Booker or Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi or Robert O'Rourke or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, then hell yes, I'm going to support him. And the likes of Boehner and McConnell and Ryan and McCain have done a piss-poor job of standing up to those folks, so it's his time somebody did.

As far as Trump's "many, many far worse transgressions," if back when I had my TS clearance, I had done what James Comey stated publicly that Hillary did, I would have gotten 20 to 40 in Leavenworth--and deserved it. I'm not sure Trump as done anything far worse, or even somewhat worse, than that, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't done many, many things that were. I think your statement reflects somewhat upon the eye of the beholder. One thing I have noted is that there is a huge divide in the thinking about Hillary's behavior between those who have held security clearances in the past and those who haven't. Those who have pretty much instantly grasp the seriousness of her mistakes, while those who aren't generally don't. I will say this, I like her better than any other democrat in the field at this point. I registered as a democrat to vote for her in the 2008 and 2016 primaries, as the lesser of evils both times, and if she's around in 2020 against the current field, I'll do the same again.

The philosophy that "could bend and support people as varied as GWB, Paul Ryan, Mattis, and Trump" is very simple. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I just wish my enemy had more competent enemies.

So why do conservatives see liberals as enemies so much more than they did in the past? I can't say that I see that level of vitriol on the other side. Liberals think conservatives are stupid and short-sighted, but I don't see the pleasure in the pain that I see on the conservative side.

People have anger management issues and what has happened is the talk news outlets, internet ect. have helped to link that anger with talking points.

Its mostly people who are 50, 60, 70 years old that are interested in jibber-jabbering politics. They see the grey hair politicians on the screen and they see it as something they can relate to.

Very few of these people are the types that had an A on their constitutional law exam in high school but because of their nature of having to be a responsible adult have learned how to express opinions and ideas.

I think the people who are liberals tend to prefer watching a series on Netflix over consuming news. They like to put labels on something say like the if they hear about border mistreatment, assume Trump is doing a terrible job and move on to the next TV show.

So yes I do think there is a personality component to it as its casual liberal compared to serious conservative. Its a person who likes to view things generally vs. someone who likes to rattle off the details.
12-28-2018 12:18 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #253
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-22-2018 09:39 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-22-2018 09:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-22-2018 09:01 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  I've tried to make this point before, but it's fallen on deaf ears. I'll try again, for some reason.
No one is blaming conservatives for voting for Trump anymore.
Trump's election was a surprise, but not a massive one. They were the two most disliked candidates ever, one rising above the other isn't shocking.
What is shocking is how closely conservatives have grown to Trump. How vehemently they defend him. They seem to harbor secret reservations, but seem to have only the ability to whisper them (from my perspective).
How the people that thought Hilary's email server and Bill Clinton meeting Loretta Lynch on a plane were historical scandals but became so laid back about Trump's many, many, far worse transgressions is a mystery to anyone not in that 40% that always loves him no matter what.
I didn't start this thread to pick a fight about Trump. I truly wanted to figure out what philosophy could bend and support people as varied as GWB, Paul Ryan, Mattis, and Trump (who seem like they're from different planets to me).
But I understand that it's tough to evaluate yourself and I don't regret trying.
I think most conservatives I know are not nearly so enamored of Trump as they are totally disgusted with what the democrats have on offer. He is far more an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of president then one that conservatives actually like. I don't care for Trump and did not vote for him. But if he is what is standing between me and the likes of Bernie Sanders or Fauxcohontas Warren or Kamala Harris or Cory Booker or Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi or Robert O'Rourke or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, then hell yes, I'm going to support him. And the likes of Boehner and McConnell and Ryan and McCain have done a piss-poor job of standing up to those folks, so it's his time somebody did.
As far as Trump's "many, many far worse transgressions," if back when I had my TS clearance, I had done what James Comey stated publicly that Hillary did, I would have gotten 20 to 40 in Leavenworth--and deserved it. I'm not sure Trump as done anything far worse, or even somewhat worse, than that, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't done many, many things that were. I think your statement reflects somewhat upon the eye of the beholder. One thing I have noted is that there is a huge divide in the thinking about Hillary's behavior between those who have held security clearances in the past and those who haven't. Those who have pretty much instantly grasp the seriousness of her mistakes, while those who aren't generally don't. I will say this, I like her better than any other democrat in the field at this point. I registered as a democrat to vote for her in the 2008 and 2016 primaries, as the lesser of evils both times, and if she's around in 2020 against the current field, I'll do the same again.
The philosophy that "could bend and support people as varied as GWB, Paul Ryan, Mattis, and Trump" is very simple. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I just wish my enemy had more competent enemies.
So why do conservatives see liberals as enemies so much more than they did in the past? I can't say that I see that level of vitriol on the other side. Liberals think conservatives are stupid and short-sighted, but I don't see the pleasure in the pain that I see on the conservative side.

If you don't see the vitriol from the left, I don't know how to help you, except to say it's there, believe me. I think it may be a perception thing. "Deplorable" may have cost Hillary the white house.

I think the left has moved further left than the right has moved right. That may be a perception thing, but look at the issues. A "conservative" position on drugs or gay rights was basically middle of the road a generation ago. The left now criticizes things as "radical" that were centrist positions in the 1960s or 1970s. The right hasn't moved, the center has, pulled by the further leftward movement of the left. As the left has moved left, conservatives have become more opposed.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018 12:35 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-28-2018 12:33 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #254
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-23-2018 11:01 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-23-2018 10:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'll tell you what's at the center of the diagram for me. It's the sincere belief that the democrats have gone stark raving collectivist/redistributionist nuts, and my resulting inclination to see anything else as better.

You may disagree with my underlying premise, but I sincerely believe it, and not without substantial evidence to support it.

The left likes to say that Ronald Reagan couldn't get the republican nomination today. Well, I think he'd come a damn sight closer than JFK would to getting the democrat nomination, and possibly even closer than Bill Clinton.

I don't disagree, for the most part. There has been a massive leftward shift in Europe over the past several decades and there has been a lot of leftward movement in Democrats wanting to emulate the things they like about more socialist nations.

I wouldn't say that it's nuts, though. The world around us changed and some want to adopt those changes and some want to reject the changes. That seems like a historically normal argument to have as a nation.

JFK might have a shot now that the Democrats got whupped in 2016. Democrats will probably go more progressive, but there's a chance they might go more moderate and make a play for the middle/Midwest.

Its natural for people to want to solve problems and to show dedication to improving society.

The left has evolved into a lot of permutations from where it was 100 years ago. Social services, green technology, direct action marches ect. so I think that complexity has a lots of people in different niches constantly pushing for positive changes.

The corporate world has embraced liberal and left ideas and products. They want to be able to recruit from as diverse workforce as possible because talent is limited. They want a global market for their services.

There are ideas out there like a green new deal which if the democrats could gain back the presidency they could try. Trump put a pro fossil fuel guy in at the head of the EPA to try and loosen regulations which of course doesn't sit well with any in the environmental block.
12-28-2018 01:15 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-28-2018 01:15 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(12-23-2018 11:01 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-23-2018 10:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'll tell you what's at the center of the diagram for me. It's the sincere belief that the democrats have gone stark raving collectivist/redistributionist nuts, and my resulting inclination to see anything else as better.

You may disagree with my underlying premise, but I sincerely believe it, and not without substantial evidence to support it.

The left likes to say that Ronald Reagan couldn't get the republican nomination today. Well, I think he'd come a damn sight closer than JFK would to getting the democrat nomination, and possibly even closer than Bill Clinton.

I don't disagree, for the most part. There has been a massive leftward shift in Europe over the past several decades and there has been a lot of leftward movement in Democrats wanting to emulate the things they like about more socialist nations.

I wouldn't say that it's nuts, though. The world around us changed and some want to adopt those changes and some want to reject the changes. That seems like a historically normal argument to have as a nation.

JFK might have a shot now that the Democrats got whupped in 2016. Democrats will probably go more progressive, but there's a chance they might go more moderate and make a play for the middle/Midwest.

Its natural for people to want to solve problems and to show dedication to improving society.

The left has evolved into a lot of permutations from where it was 100 years ago. Social services, green technology, direct action marches ect. so I think that complexity has a lots of people in different niches constantly pushing for positive changes.

The corporate world has embraced liberal and left ideas and products. They want to be able to recruit from as diverse workforce as possible because talent is limited. They want a global market for their services.

There are ideas out there like a green new deal which if the democrats could gain back the presidency they could try. Trump put a pro fossil fuel guy in at the head of the EPA to try and loosen regulations which of course doesn't sit well with any in the environmental block.

If you wish to define embrace as 'adopt or face the wrath of boycott' you might be correct. I mean, if political-viewpoint based boycotting or political-based purchasing were made into an Olympic sport the progressives would be a lock for the gold, silver, and bronze medals for the next millennium.

Corporate hiring isnt a result of political stances -- corporate hiring for the absolute most part is amazingly agnostic when left alone. It is easy-peasy without all the additional overhead 'built into the system *due* to politics: hire the best person for the job. Your rationale in the two sentences that follow is absolutely spot on -- good workers and profits *are* the goal of any entity.

But your basis for those two sentences that 'adopting leftward viewpoints' results in those is pretty much pablum.
12-28-2018 09:15 AM
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RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
Big corporations see big government as the ultimate customer. Hiring has nothing to do with anything.
12-28-2018 11:49 AM
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Post: #257
RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-27-2018 08:57 PM)atsKnight Wrote:  
(12-27-2018 08:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Every time the likes of Bernie or Fauxcohontas Warren or Kamala Harris opens his/her mouth, Trump looks better to conservatives.

I would say that, for example, evangelical conservatives saw the 2016 election as a contest between a terrible sinner and the devil personified. I don't agree that Hillary is the devil personified. But I would say that Bernie and Warren and Harris come pretty close.

That's what I think you are not getting--just how extreme democrats have moved in the last 10 years or so, and just how much conservatives hate that. Hillary, Obama, and Biden were on the left wing of the democrats in 2008. Now Hillary is on the right wing, and Obama and Biden are in the middle.

If that were the case, wouldn't the favorables be up for all Republicans?

No, because large swaths of the population lean hard left (said simply, government is the answer)... All this does is explain Trumps popularity within those who think government is the problem (Conservatives said simply) despite the fact that he doesn't really represent their individual priorities well.... which was your original premise.

The more/further left Democrats go, the more Conservatives align behind Trump. This was the lesson of Ross Perot, which ironically was somewhat lost on the Democrats with Bernie.... though they've obviously firmly aligned behind 'not Trump'. That's why Republicans had a dozen candidates, but then all aligned behind perhaps the LEAST 'republican' of them all. He wasn't and still isn't their choice, but he is better than letting the left win.
12-28-2018 02:31 PM
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RE: A new theory for why Republicans and Democrats see the world differently
(12-28-2018 11:49 AM)Claw Wrote:  Big corporations see big government as the ultimate customer. Hiring has nothing to do with anything.

Yes... because big government means big contracts and nobody counting the pennies. 4.6billion, 4.7 billion, who cares?
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2018 02:35 PM by Hambone10.)
12-28-2018 02:32 PM
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