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The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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Post: #481
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 01:36 PM)esayem Wrote:  We have improved upon the eye test that has ALWAYS existed.

No you haven't.

We've gone from 65 people (AP Poll) determining who could be the mythical national champion to 13 people (CFP) determining who could be the mythical national champion.

Back then, it was more democratic and didn't have to lie.

Now, it is a political beauty contest between washed up blowhards in some boardroom somewhere lying to the people about the process being a playoff for a real national championship.

Either drop the charade and go back to the pre-BCS Bowl days, or grow up and start a real, inclusive playoff to determine a true national champion where the participants are decided on the freakin' field.
01-02-2019 02:48 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #482
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 02:48 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 01:36 PM)esayem Wrote:  We have improved upon the eye test that has ALWAYS existed.

No you haven't.

We've gone from 65 people (AP Poll) determining who could be the mythical national champion to 13 people (CFP) determining who could be the mythical national champion.

Back then, it was more democratic and didn't have to lie.

Now, it is a political beauty contest between washed up blowhards in some boardroom somewhere lying to the people about the process being a playoff for a real national championship.

Either drop the charade and go back to the pre-BCS Bowl days, or grow up and start a real, inclusive playoff to determine a true national champion where the participants are decided on the freakin' field.

Don't forget the blowhards on TV acting like it's a real playoff.
01-02-2019 02:57 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #483
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 02:48 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 01:36 PM)esayem Wrote:  We have improved upon the eye test that has ALWAYS existed.

No you haven't.

We've gone from 65 people (AP Poll) determining who could be the mythical national champion to 13 people (CFP) determining who could be the mythical national champion.

Back then, it was more democratic and didn't have to lie.

Now, it is a political beauty contest between washed up blowhards in some boardroom somewhere lying to the people about the process being a playoff for a real national championship.

Either drop the charade and go back to the pre-BCS Bowl days, or grow up and start a real, inclusive playoff to determine a true national champion where the participants are decided on the freakin' field.

The CFP is clearly an improvement as it ensures we won't have a split champion. The last tine we had that was 15 years ago with LSU and USC.

With the CFP, whoever wins the playoffs will obviously have the strongest resume and be #1
.
Remember, winning the CFP can be harder than winning the ncaa hoops event. Alabama beat more top teams to win the CFP last year than Villanova did to win hoops.
01-02-2019 03:43 PM
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CAJUNNATION Offline
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Post: #484
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 03:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  With the CFP, whoever wins the playoffs will obviously have the strongest resume and be #1 ....


Question.

Why doesn't the NFL throw away their playoff format, and use an NFL Playoff committee to pick the 4 most deserving teams to be in the NFL Playoffs?

They must ensure that only the best win the championship, right?
01-02-2019 03:53 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #485
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 03:53 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 03:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  With the CFP, whoever wins the playoffs will obviously have the strongest resume and be #1 ....


Question.

Why doesn't the NFL throw away their playoff format, and use an NFL Playoff committee to pick the 4 most deserving teams to be in the NFL Playoffs?

They must ensure that only the best win the championship, right?

If they wanted to copy FBS college football, the NFL would only have the top 3% of teams getting into the playoff. That is, 1 team.
01-02-2019 03:57 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #486
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 03:53 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 03:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  With the CFP, whoever wins the playoffs will obviously have the strongest resume and be #1 ....


Question.

Why doesn't the NFL throw away their playoff format, and use an NFL Playoff committee to pick the 4 most deserving teams to be in the NFL Playoffs?

They must ensure that only the best win the championship, right?


Because its a stupid way to crown a championship.
01-02-2019 03:58 PM
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toddjnsn Offline
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
Quote:No, mine is numerically accurate - 19/20.

You're counting every conference each year if they make it, over the past 5 years. It gives the illusion of "better". It's that 1 out of the past 5 years, Not All made it. And 5 out of the last 10 years, Not All Made it. What I am saying is 100% accurate, too. Yours is, but you're shortening it to just the last 5 years which makes it look better either way, and counting all Teams within conferences each year to jump up the #s to make it not seem that bad.

Again, whether I was more on your side or not, I'm taking the perspective of the P5 Commissioners. Their focus is going to be "How can we maximize that we ALL get in?" With 8 teams, that's what they figure would solve (most of) that. That's what's drawing them to it -- not just mere fans more wanting a Real Playoff (8+ teams). 5 out of 10 years, NOT all P5 Champs would make it in by a straight-8. You're just looking at the last 5 years.

Quote:And as i explained, there is zero evidence from 1890 to 2018 that the major conferences consider autobids for their champs as an ideal end goal.

Of course it has. It got you to the Rose Bowl for the B10 & PAC10/12. Especially when you don't have a playoff (until very very very recently), that was the main goal. Get rid of Conf Champ auto-bids to Big Bowls. See how that works out.

Quote:In fact, we've had a 'playoff' for 20 years - two team and now four team. It's really not complicated.

2 team is not really a playoff anymore than the P12 vs B1G Champs in a Rose Bowl for the who's-better. Or any Conf Championship game. They're not calling Conf Championship games like, "The PAC 12 Playoff" for a reason.

The current 4-team is instead letting the winners of the top 2 bowls play an extra battle for the Nat Champ. This is a playoff, yes. It's not really much of a system, but a snickers bar to feed the hungry, for now. Some P5 heads are getting a bit hungry now (hence the news, discussion, etc).

Quote:In other words, college football is slowly being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century. They have a ways to go.

Pretty much. If you were to say in the 90s that we'd be shifting the bowls around where the Rose Bowl wouldn't have B10 vs P12 Champ every year, and instead would sometimes be designated as Top 2 bowls, where the Top 4 Ranked would be placed and winners would play for a post-bowl Nat Champ -- all while almost ALL teams 6-6 or better would get into Bowls, including low-end General Conference teams -- many would LAUGH and say NO WAY is that happening. Granted, part of their argument would be valid -- why something weird like that? Why not, like an 8-team playoff if you're going to ruin the eliteness of bowls anyway and allow everyone and their cat into them? My response would be: It's a transition, and CFB likes to keep as many fingers in the jars of tradition as much as possible, even if the combination of old & new looks silly at the time.

I say throw out nostalgia (it's for nostrils), don't rely on "tradition" as the end-all-be-all argument. It's already outside of "tradition" anyway. Mine as well make the Playoff system most ideal.

Quote:Why doesn't the NFL throw away their playoff format, and use an NFL Playoff committee to pick the 4 most deserving teams to be in the NFL Playoffs?

Yeah, Only have the two best Ranked in the AFC play, and two best Ranked in the NFC play, and winners go to Super Bowl. Ya already played WAY More games VS # of teams in the league than CFB does! Just cut to the chase, right?? I think that's the argument that those who scoff hard at an 8-team playoff idea Should have! :)
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2019 09:41 PM by toddjnsn.)
01-02-2019 04:29 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #488
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(12-30-2018 07:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-29-2018 10:13 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
Quote:And you can't say "well that's because those were two and four team playoffs that made it mathematically impossible", because if that value was so darn strong, they wouldn't have created a BCS and then CFP systems in the first place, they would have instituted a playoff system large enough to include all conference champs 20 years ago, instead of the BCS. So that suggests it isn't that strong a priority for the big conferences.

Change is gradual. What we have is a evolution from the old bowl system, not a clean break.

To me, the conference champs get an autobid to a bowl analogy doesn't support the concept of autobids to playoffs, because in an 8 team playoff a conference champ that doesn't make the playoffs could still be guaranteed a bowl spot somewhere. ...

But back in the day, before the BCS, that autobid into the bowl was the last chance for a high ranking team to make a statement win and move up the rankings to the top spot. And last chance for the top ranking school at the end of the regular season to trip up and surrender that spot.

That autobid lost that status with the BCS, when it dropped down to be an opportunity to move into the two spot at best ... eg, for when Notre Dame is picked at the second best team in the country on the basis of a weak schedule but lots of wins.

... and now has evolved into being a consolation prize ... eg, for when Notre Dame is picked as one of the four best teams in the country on the basis of a weak schedule but lots of wins.

Up to best six FBS champions ranked 12 or higher, and the rest the best remaining at-large, is not going to leave out the number two that is unfortunately in the same conference as the number one. It would be an interesting exercise to see how often it would not include all four top four teams ranked post BCS / CFP games during the championship game season.
01-03-2019 04:24 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #489
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 03:53 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 03:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  With the CFP, whoever wins the playoffs will obviously have the strongest resume and be #1 ....


Question.

Why doesn't the NFL throw away their playoff format, and use an NFL Playoff committee to pick the 4 most deserving teams to be in the NFL Playoffs?

They must ensure that only the best win the championship, right?

The NFL playoff format is driven by money, not by competitive validity. Every time the NFL playoffs has expanded, it has been because of a belief it will bring in more money.

If expanding the playoffs to 8 teams will bring in more money for the A5, it will happen too, so don't fret about it. 07-coffee3
01-03-2019 09:46 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #490
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 04:29 PM)toddjnsn Wrote:  Of course it has. It got you to the Rose Bowl for the B10 & PAC10/12.

For bowls, not playoffs.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2019 09:49 AM by quo vadis.)
01-03-2019 09:49 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-03-2019 04:24 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  ... and now has evolved into being a consolation prize ... eg, for when Notre Dame is picked as one of the four best teams in the country on the basis of a weak schedule but lots of wins.

Notre Dame was also ranked in the top 4 by the massey composite as well.

It's amazing watching ND get dumped on when we've had many conference champs get blown out in the CFP too. Oklahoma was down 28-0 before I'd settled in to my chair the other day.
01-03-2019 09:52 AM
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Post: #492
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
If you have 8 teams and an AQ for the top G5 team, possibly with a restriction on being ranked at a certain level, I don't care how the P5 teams do it. They could maybe have an AQ for the top 2 conference winners so the OOC still matters? Then again, top teams that play an OOC of an FCS school, 2 bad G5 teams and one mid-level P5 team at a neutral site don't really tell you very much anyway.

Wouldn't happen but I can dream.
01-03-2019 10:46 AM
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Post: #493
RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 03:53 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 03:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  With the CFP, whoever wins the playoffs will obviously have the strongest resume and be #1 ....


Question.

Why doesn't the NFL throw away their playoff format, and use an NFL Playoff committee to pick the 4 most deserving teams to be in the NFL Playoffs?

They must ensure that only the best win the championship, right?
Precisely. Only a moron thinks what we have or what we had is better than a real playoff. No more qualifying heats in the Olympics. Just have everyone sign up and a committee of old, rich dudes pick the two that look the fastest. Perfect!!
01-03-2019 04:55 PM
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 01:28 PM)ArQ Wrote:  
(12-30-2018 11:21 AM)OrangeDude Wrote:  
(12-29-2018 01:39 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(12-28-2018 06:02 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ...With Auto-bids, every P5 champ will be in and the top G5 champ will be in. So, in what sport do division or conference champs NOT get in. Rank is subjective. Making the right play, at the right time, and winning when its all on the line is literally the definition of a conference champion. There would still be two wildcards to give high ranking deserving teams a SECOND chance to get in after they FAILED to win their conference championship. Nobody is going care if a team is left out because they couldnt even prove they were the best team in their own conference (or even division in some cases)--and then FAILED to convince the even the ice skating judges that they were one of the 2 best teams not automatically in the playoff.

This is a critical point that too many people miss. By definition there can ONLY be one undefeated team per conference (at most), and by definition that team WILL be the champion. So all of this talk of "more deserving at-large teams" really applies to the runners-up, second-place (or worse) teams. Why would those teams deserve more sympathy than the conference champ who lost a couple of upsets early in the season - then won when it mattered most (i.e. the championship game)?

It's hard to justify calling any team best in the nation if we know for a fact they aren't even the best in their own conference... isn't their conference in the nation?

No matter what the system, no one is going to be satisfied. Let's say this year's Syracuse beat Clemson as a result of us knocking Trevor Lawrence out of the game early. We still lose to Pitt and ND so Clemson is 11-1 and we are 10-2 but we hold the conference tie-breaker against Clemson so we get to play in the ACCCG while they don't. Everything else stays the same. We get revenge on Pitt in that game to get to 11-2 and are the auto-bid or Pitt beats us again and finishes the season 8-5 and gets the auto-bid. Are we truly getting "the best team in the conference"? I'd still believe the Tigers were the best team in the conference, but a fluke in one game allowed us to play in the ACCCG and left Clemson out when it should have been Clemson vs Syracuse all along in this alternate reality.

This is why I only want auto-bids for conference champions IF the conferences devise a system where the top two teams play each other in that game. Right now this only happens in the Big 12.

Of course then, depending upon what criteria the conference develops, someone will still complain. 05-stirthepot

Cheers,
Neil

As many people have pointed out, championship game should pair the best two teams (according to rankings) instead of two division champions. Problem solved. Also in your scenario, Syracuse and Clemson will meet in the conference championship game, not Pittsburgh and somebody.

But you don't know who the two best teams are if you don't play everybody. CCGs pairing the top two without a round robin are little better than another beauty contest. You will need all kinds of tiebreaks. Bad, bad idea.
01-03-2019 05:12 PM
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-02-2019 01:36 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-02-2019 01:17 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  There is no right answer because there are no rules. It's one big "eye test". This entire endeavor is nothing more than a giant self-pleasuring popularity contest.

THIS is killing college football.

No, it's not. In 1993, the voted "champion" finished with the same one-loss record as the only team to beat them because bowl games didn't believe in postseason rematches.

We have improved upon the eye test that has ALWAYS existed.

CFP is far better than BCS. BCS was far better than bowl alliance. Bowl alliance was better than what came before.

And when 8 finally comes, it will be definitely better than 4.
01-03-2019 05:16 PM
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
Each change to the system has been for the better and I think an 8 team playoff would be optimal in terms of:

Accessibility to Champs of the P5
Accessibility to the top G5 Champ
Accessibility for two at large teams from deep conferences
Encouraging strong OOC schedules--big games are no longer national title run killers but resume builders
Incorporating the old bowl system--4 of the NY6 are quarterfinals and 2 are semifinals on a rotating basis (the semifinal Bowls can also host a game at New Year's too)
Making money for the television partners and the conferences
01-03-2019 05:43 PM
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1845 Bear Offline
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Post: #497
The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
If we define “deserves a shot” as either-

- A Power Conference team that has an equal or fewer number of losses to the top two teams in either the selection committee (2014-2018), the BCS (1998-2013), or the AP poll prior to that.

- Any unbeaten team

Eight teams solves all but two years of the last 30.

Expand to 8 and 90+% of the teams with serious arguments get slotted
01-03-2019 06:01 PM
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-03-2019 06:01 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  If we define “deserves a shot” as either-

- A Power Conference team that has an equal or fewer number of losses to the top two teams in either the selection committee (2014-2018), the BCS (1998-2013), or the AP poll prior to that.

- Any unbeaten team

Eight teams solves all but two years of the last 30.

Expand to 8 and 90+% of the teams with serious arguments get slotted

It's called bracket creep and it never ends.
01-03-2019 06:06 PM
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1845 Bear Offline
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The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-03-2019 06:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-03-2019 06:01 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  If we define “deserves a shot” as either-

- A Power Conference team that has an equal or fewer number of losses to the top two teams in either the selection committee (2014-2018), the BCS (1998-2013), or the AP poll prior to that.

- Any unbeaten team

Eight teams solves all but two years of the last 30.

Expand to 8 and 90+% of the teams with serious arguments get slotted

It's called bracket creep and it never ends.


When it’s no longer unbeatens and one loss teams that realistically have an argument being left out it will end enough that any real expansion momentum will end. You’ll have two and three loss schools arguing most of the time and it won’t carry nearly the fervor.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2019 06:26 PM by 1845 Bear.)
01-03-2019 06:24 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: The Athletic: college football power brokers pushing for 8 team playoff
(01-03-2019 06:24 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  
(01-03-2019 06:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-03-2019 06:01 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  If we define “deserves a shot” as either-

- A Power Conference team that has an equal or fewer number of losses to the top two teams in either the selection committee (2014-2018), the BCS (1998-2013), or the AP poll prior to that.

- Any unbeaten team

Eight teams solves all but two years of the last 30.

Expand to 8 and 90+% of the teams with serious arguments get slotted

It's called bracket creep and it never ends.


When it’s no longer unbeatens and one loss teams that realistically have an argument being left out it will end enough that any real expansion momentum will end. You’ll have two and three loss schools arguing most of the time and it won’t carry nearly the fervor.

Thing is, there's no "fervor" now. There really never has been. Maybe the only close example was TCU being left out in favor of Ohio State the very first year, but Ohio State shut that up by winning the damn thing.

By and large, the great bulk of everyone agrees with the teams chosen by the CFP. The major polls, the computers, etc.
01-03-2019 07:15 PM
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