(11-13-2018 07:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 07:24 PM)gdunn Wrote:  Fire the ones involved, strip them of their benefits, and make sure they never work in government again would be punishment enough.

No, they need to die in prison. Otherwise there will be others who think they won't get caught, or that the rewards of not getting caught outweigh the penalties for getting caught. Make the penalties for getting caught something that nobody wants to risk.

There have to be consequences. We have a generation that hasn't had enough consequences.

(11-14-2018 08:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm not going to go back and search the threads because frankly it's not worth my time. YOU said... so you ghot collusion but you don't have conspiracy. Something very close to that. The semantics doesn't matter to the argument. Without a shred of doubt we have collusiuon. Trump Jr. met on the condition to get dirt on Hillary. That meeting happened. That is collusion.

So much fail here. No. A meeting is a meeting. The meeting was with a private lawyer—not a foriegn State.

(11-13-2018 09:26 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:09 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:00 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 08:13 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  You guys already have them convicted... Geez.

I expect a volcanic meltdown IF the recount shows that Broward Counties inept ballot design wasn't read properly by some of the election tabulation machines and it turns out that Nelson won.

Being inept does not mean that someone is criminal.

"How does that shoe feel on the other foot? Kind of sucks to be considered guilty rather than innocent until proven guilty now doesn't it?"
— Justice Bret Kavanaugh

The difference is....

An election isn't for life. And all we're looking to do is count all the votes.

The duration of effect or outcome should have no bearing.
Traffic ticket, jaywalking, robbing a bank, premeditated murder in cold blood, everyone should have the benefit of innocence unless guilt is proven.

"The convoluted wording of legalisms grew up around the necessity to hide from ourselves the violence we intend toward each other. Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. You have done violence to him, consumed his energy."
-Frank Herbert

(11-14-2018 03:16 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-14-2018 12:37 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-14-2018 12:01 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:09 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:00 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  "How does that shoe feel on the other foot? Kind of sucks to be considered guilty rather than innocent until proven guilty now doesn't it?"
— Justice Bret Kavanaugh

The difference is....

An election isn't for life. And all we're looking to do is count all the votes.

No sir! What we are looking to do is to count all of the legal votes of valid voters. In Broward you have documented cases of people voting twice and of people who have been dead for over 100 years whose names are still on the voter role. It's beyond ridiculous and inept. That much disarray only happens when it is needed to cover up criminality. And there is enough there to at least get an indictment.

Who voted twice? Please source that.

Lots of dead people on voter rolls. That doesn't mean they get to vote.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/browar...ers-votes/

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/...ults-fraud

That's all I found with a google search of "voted twice Broward" on google

and a youtube video from an individual named Goodman that I didn't watch.

BTW, I did sincerely try to find your accusations myself before asking for sources. I hate when people don't at least try first.

The double voters have already been documented in another thread here Tom.

Enough of the nonsense. Gross mishandling of ballots is a crime. Opening ballots in a private setting is a criminal offense. Transporting ballots in a private vehicle is an offense. The violations are legion. So cut the damn spin on this.

Fulton and Gwinnett where the election officials opened the polls late claiming they lost the computer power cords, and then petitioned to stay open late well past the close of the polls are easier to claim as incompetence than what has happened in Broward.

The real shame here is that voting and electing our leadership is the probably the most sacred of rights in our nation and these kinds of issues shouldn't be tolerated in one election, let alone over two decades of them as they have been in Broward. We ought to have Federal Election officials who can arrive the same day as any report of impropriety at the polls to oversee with the state personnel the handling of the ballots , identification procedures, and counts. Their presence should be mandatory during the polling on election day at sites with a previous history of issues.

Both parties should benefit from integrity at the polling place and excuse making for the most egregious I find inexcusable. And by the way in most places where folks long departed are left on voter rolls, ballots have been cast in their name. The recently dead is understandable. Those dead for decades? Please!

It is unreasonable for someone to search through thousands of posts to find something, especially if its in a link that might not be clearly labelled. I sincerely tried to look up the claim, and couldn't find squat on it. If someone has dealt with it, then fine, but I'm asking them to show me WHERE they found it. If you're making the claim, and its not something that's going to show up in a google search, then it is reasonable to ask for a source. A google search term that would throw up the claims would suffice. A link to an outside source would suffice. A link to the post or thread where it was dealt would suffice.

I loathe it when people ask for proof of the obvious. So I try to do my own research BEFORE I ask for a source.

Here's a link on ballotpedia about dead people voting. It notes one case where 2 dead people votes were discovered, and that it was caught by post election review. https://ballotpedia.org/Dead_people_voting Hardly an epidemic here.

NC did an exhaustive study and found that 41 whole ineligible people voted illegally in North Carolina. Out of 5 million or so votes. Not all were dead voters.

In Alaska, they found that 7 people on their db that were dead asked for absentee ballots. And of course it was caught. And sometimes the state can get their voter registrations mixed up. And even have someone alive listed as dead.

This isn't an epidemic guys. This is just noise. There's a reason why it isn't a systematic way of ballot stuffing....its really easy to get caught doing it.

(11-14-2018 08:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  and collusion is not illegal. Conspiracy is.....

That’s correct.

By the way, how about answering my question. How open minded are you to the possibility that no evidence will be found?

And what will you do if that possibility is realized?

(11-14-2018 08:23 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm not going to go back and search the threads because frankly it's not worth my time. YOU said... so you ghot collusion but you don't have conspiracy. Something very close to that. The semantics doesn't matter to the argument. Without a shred of doubt we have collusiuon. Trump Jr. met on the condition to get dirt on Hillary. That meeting happened. That is collusion.

I don't think I've ever said or intended to say that you might have collusion, but I may have mistyped or misspoke. I've certainly never seen anything that constitutes proof of collusion, not that it really matters because collusion without conspiracy is not criminal.

Here is a summary.

If they met but did not reach any agreement, that is not collusion.
If they met and reached agreement but did nothing in furtherance of that agreement, that is collusion but not conspiracy and is not criminal.
If they met, agreed, and then completed one or more acts in furtherance of whatever they agreed, that is conspiracy, and that is criminal.

Why do you think they go to such great lengths to prove criminal conspiracy when they have a case of it? They have to get it all nailed down by the numbers.

The goal is to prove obstruction because of collusion.