(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that wasn't the extent of your point. You also contended that the stated criticisms of Ford's allegations are illegitimate, because they match criticisms that your wife has told you are often incorrect in the case of known victims. The implication of that contention is that since those criticisms are often (according to your wife) inaccurate among known victims, they should be presumed inaccurate with respect to Ford as a claimed victim, and therefore Ford's claim must be believed.

And that's not a logical proposition. Of course the criticisms of ACTUAL victims are inaccurate, just as the alibis of ACTUAL murderers are untrue. But that does not mean that criticism of a CLAIMED victim is inaccurate, any more than we would presume that the alibi of an ACCUSED murderer is untrue. To say otherwise is to presume the truth or falsehood of the very hypothesis which is to be proved/disproved.

(11-13-2018 10:25 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that wasn't the extent of your point. You also contended that the stated criticisms of Ford's allegations are illegitimate, because they match criticisms that your wife has told you are often incorrect in the case of known victims. The implication of that contention is that since those criticisms are often (according to your wife) inaccurate among known victims, they should be presumed inaccurate with respect to Ford as a claimed victim, and therefore Ford's claim must be believed.

And that's not a logical proposition. Of course the criticisms of ACTUAL victims are inaccurate, just as the alibis of ACTUAL murderers are untrue. But that does not mean that criticism of a CLAIMED victim is inaccurate, any more than we would presume that the alibi of an ACCUSED murderer is untrue. To say otherwise is to presume the truth or falsehood of the very hypothesis which is to be proved/disproved.

That's not really what I stated, or meant to at least. But I don't care to debate it.

(11-13-2018 12:39 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 10:25 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that wasn't the extent of your point. You also contended that the stated criticisms of Ford's allegations are illegitimate, because they match criticisms that your wife has told you are often incorrect in the case of known victims. The implication of that contention is that since those criticisms are often (according to your wife) inaccurate among known victims, they should be presumed inaccurate with respect to Ford as a claimed victim, and therefore Ford's claim must be believed.

And that's not a logical proposition. Of course the criticisms of ACTUAL victims are inaccurate, just as the alibis of ACTUAL murderers are untrue. But that does not mean that criticism of a CLAIMED victim is inaccurate, any more than we would presume that the alibi of an ACCUSED murderer is untrue. To say otherwise is to presume the truth or falsehood of the very hypothesis which is to be proved/disproved.

That's not really what I stated, or meant to at least. But I don't care to debate it.

I don't think I have mischaracterized this comment:

(11-07-2018 10:00 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  My wife does a lot of volunteer work for SAFE Place. It's not unusual for people to forget details like the ones Ford forgot. It is highly unusual for the victim to misidentify the assailant, especially when they are known to each other.

In other words, this "report" just causes eye rolling from people who actually know about this stuff and work to help victims of sexual assault.

(11-13-2018 01:17 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 12:39 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 10:25 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that wasn't the extent of your point. You also contended that the stated criticisms of Ford's allegations are illegitimate, because they match criticisms that your wife has told you are often incorrect in the case of known victims. The implication of that contention is that since those criticisms are often (according to your wife) inaccurate among known victims, they should be presumed inaccurate with respect to Ford as a claimed victim, and therefore Ford's claim must be believed.

And that's not a logical proposition. Of course the criticisms of ACTUAL victims are inaccurate, just as the alibis of ACTUAL murderers are untrue. But that does not mean that criticism of a CLAIMED victim is inaccurate, any more than we would presume that the alibi of an ACCUSED murderer is untrue. To say otherwise is to presume the truth or falsehood of the very hypothesis which is to be proved/disproved.

That's not really what I stated, or meant to at least. But I don't care to debate it.

I don't think I have mischaracterized this comment:

(11-07-2018 10:00 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  My wife does a lot of volunteer work for SAFE Place. It's not unusual for people to forget details like the ones Ford forgot. It is highly unusual for the victim to misidentify the assailant, especially when they are known to each other.

In other words, this "report" just causes eye rolling from people who actually know about this stuff and work to help victims of sexual assault.

JAAO's comment is one of two things.

a) it is just what George has described; or
b) it is a complete non-sequitur that has no bearing on the issue at hand at all.

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

Not really surprising. Can’t really prove anything with anecdotes. My point was just that I was surprised how many women did not immediately assume she was telling the truth.

Quote:

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that has no bearing on whether Ford was telling the truth or not.

(11-13-2018 05:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

Not really surprising. Can’t really prove anything with anecdotes. My point was just that I was surprised how many women did not immediately assume she was telling the truth.

Quote:

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that has no bearing on whether Ford was telling the truth or not.

Be careful saying that about anecdotal evidence! I’ve got two posters on this board that won’t let me forget that I’ve dared suggest anecdotal evidence isn’t a strong foundation to make a case on...

(11-13-2018 06:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 05:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

Not really surprising. Can’t really prove anything with anecdotes. My point was just that I was surprised how many women did not immediately assume she was telling the truth.

Quote:

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that has no bearing on whether Ford was telling the truth or not.

Be careful saying that about anecdotal evidence! I’ve got two posters on this board that won’t let me forget that I’ve dared suggest anecdotal evidence isn’t a strong foundation to make a case on...

I need a citation to a study before I can accept that number...

Seriously, lad, my 70 years experience with illegals should count for something. Maybe you could interview me, put the results in a table, publish it somewhere, and then we could cite it as fact.

(Aside) My freshman year, I took Bio 101 from Dr. Davies, who would sometimes interrupt his lectures by waving his arms and shouting Anecdote!! Anecdote!!! This was the signal that we could put our pens down, as the anecdote had nothing to do with our studies.

(11-13-2018 06:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 06:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 05:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I know several women who were sexually assaulted. I’ve spoken with some of them about this. They all told me that they did not believe Ford. She just did not come across to them as genuine.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

Not really surprising. Can’t really prove anything with anecdotes. My point was just that I was surprised how many women did not immediately assume she was telling the truth.

Quote:

(11-08-2018 04:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I’m not quite following your logic in the last paragraph. You seem to be saying that sexual assault is common, therefore we must believe Ford. If that is a mischaracterization of your statement, then perhaps you can clarify.

No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that has no bearing on whether Ford was telling the truth or not.

Be careful saying that about anecdotal evidence! I’ve got two posters on this board that won’t let me forget that I’ve dared suggest anecdotal evidence isn’t a strong foundation to make a case on...

I need a citation to a study before I can accept that number...

Seriously, lad, my 70 years experience with illegals should count for something. Maybe you could interview me, put the results in a table, publish it somewhere, and then we could cite it as fact.

(Aside) My freshman year, I took Bio 101 from Dr. Davies, who would sometimes interrupt his lectures by waving his arms and shouting Anecdote!! Anecdote!!! This was the signal that we could put our pens down, as the anecdote had nothing to do with our studies.

It does count for something - that you have 70 years of experience. But it doesn’t count for much when describing the entire illegal immigration population...

(11-13-2018 06:36 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 06:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 06:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 05:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2018 09:27 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience.

Not really surprising. Can’t really prove anything with anecdotes. My point was just that I was surprised how many women did not immediately assume she was telling the truth.

Quote:No, my point was, even if, for arguments sake, Ford completely made it up, sexual assault is still much more common than most of us realize(d) and waaaaaay under-reported and prosecuted.

But that has no bearing on whether Ford was telling the truth or not.

Be careful saying that about anecdotal evidence! I’ve got two posters on this board that won’t let me forget that I’ve dared suggest anecdotal evidence isn’t a strong foundation to make a case on...

I need a citation to a study before I can accept that number...

Seriously, lad, my 70 years experience with illegals should count for something. Maybe you could interview me, put the results in a table, publish it somewhere, and then we could cite it as fact.

(Aside) My freshman year, I took Bio 101 from Dr. Davies, who would sometimes interrupt his lectures by waving his arms and shouting Anecdote!! Anecdote!!! This was the signal that we could put our pens down, as the anecdote had nothing to do with our studies.

It does count for something - that you have 70 years of experience. But it doesn’t count for much when describing the entire illegal immigration population...

I didn't try to do that, and you know it. Neither of us can. I am bothered when some on your side characterize all the illegals as just wanting a better life for their families, as though that described the entire illegal immigrant population. Yes, they are noble, sure. One and all.

I can tell you that the illegals wading the river or paying coyotes are not college graduates - no engineers, no registered nurse, no pharmacists, etc. Most of them have little or no education and little or no skills. Now show me why I am wrong.

The people who resort to these measures are the ones who cannot qualify for jobs where they are. Usually they dropped out of school early. Some never went at all.

Like poor people everywhere, they will do what they have to do, and that includes criminal activity.

Of course, some are fine people. Some are terrible. If only there was some way we could let the best ones in and not all of them indiscriminately... Oh, yeah, that would be immigration control. ICE.