(11-01-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 07:43 AM)Momus Wrote:  Don’t ever buy into the right-wing lies that they love America, believe in the Constitution, or are true “patriots”. They hate American ideals such as equality. They hate the idea that we are a nation of immigrants. They reject America as a melting pot. They are motivated not by love of country or love of American ideals, but by fear and hate. Trump knows that his base is racist and cowardly, so he’s going full tilt on immigrant caravans, “invaders”, and birthright citizenship this election to play on their racism and fear. He knows his base and what motivates them.

I'm conservative and I love America.

I support the original intent of the constitution.

I'm a patriot.

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome.

I disagree that we're a nation of immigrants. We're a nation of conquerors. Once we conquered, we became a nation. That nation was comprised of those people who are already here (meaning, they didn't immigrate).

America is a melting pot -- of people who wish to assimilate.

I am motivated by love of America (again, patriot) and American ideals. I will defend her against this radical reinterpretation of what America is.


You're entire post is poppycock.

What???

Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US

4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.

3 million Germans immigrated to the US

the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.

These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

(11-02-2018 12:50 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 07:43 AM)Momus Wrote:  Don’t ever buy into the right-wing lies that they love America, believe in the Constitution, or are true “patriots”. They hate American ideals such as equality. They hate the idea that we are a nation of immigrants. They reject America as a melting pot. They are motivated not by love of country or love of American ideals, but by fear and hate. Trump knows that his base is racist and cowardly, so he’s going full tilt on immigrant caravans, “invaders”, and birthright citizenship this election to play on their racism and fear. He knows his base and what motivates them.

I'm conservative and I love America.

I support the original intent of the constitution.

I'm a patriot.

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome.

I disagree that we're a nation of immigrants. We're a nation of conquerors. Once we conquered, we became a nation. That nation was comprised of those people who are already here (meaning, they didn't immigrate).

America is a melting pot -- of people who wish to assimilate.

I am motivated by love of America (again, patriot) and American ideals. I will defend her against this radical reinterpretation of what America is.


You're entire post is poppycock.

What???

Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US

4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.

3 million Germans immigrated to the US

the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.

These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

You missed the point.

I was specifically referencing the radleft talking point: "unless you're a native American you're an immigrant."

That's patently false.

The order was not:
1. The United States is founded
2. Then settler came over.

The order was:
1. Settlers came over
2. The United States was founded by people who already lived on this soil.

Thus, those people who were already here were not migrants; rather, they were conquerors. They had to win battles and wars to be able to start this nation.

(11-02-2018 12:50 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 07:43 AM)Momus Wrote:  Don’t ever buy into the right-wing lies that they love America, believe in the Constitution, or are true “patriots”. They hate American ideals such as equality. They hate the idea that we are a nation of immigrants. They reject America as a melting pot. They are motivated not by love of country or love of American ideals, but by fear and hate. Trump knows that his base is racist and cowardly, so he’s going full tilt on immigrant caravans, “invaders”, and birthright citizenship this election to play on their racism and fear. He knows his base and what motivates them.

I'm conservative and I love America.

I support the original intent of the constitution.

I'm a patriot.

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome.

I disagree that we're a nation of immigrants. We're a nation of conquerors. Once we conquered, we became a nation. That nation was comprised of those people who are already here (meaning, they didn't immigrate).

America is a melting pot -- of people who wish to assimilate.

I am motivated by love of America (again, patriot) and American ideals. I will defend her against this radical reinterpretation of what America is.


You're entire post is poppycock.

What???

Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US

4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.

3 million Germans immigrated to the US

the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.

These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

Curious... what do you mean by "morally wrong"?

(11-02-2018 12:50 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  What???
Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US
4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.
3 million Germans immigrated to the US
the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.
These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

They also came LEGALLY.

Somehow insisting upon complying with the law is "spewing hate"? Really? Seriously?

The fact is the United States, at over $300 MILLION, doesn't need the current LEGAL immigration numbers we are getting at 1.18 M a YEAR! That's more than an entire congressional district worth of people annually that actually come here legally. Tolerating Illegal immigration under those conditions makes no sense what so ever.

(11-02-2018 12:50 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 07:43 AM)Momus Wrote:  Don’t ever buy into the right-wing lies that they love America, believe in the Constitution, or are true “patriots”. They hate American ideals such as equality. They hate the idea that we are a nation of immigrants. They reject America as a melting pot. They are motivated not by love of country or love of American ideals, but by fear and hate. Trump knows that his base is racist and cowardly, so he’s going full tilt on immigrant caravans, “invaders”, and birthright citizenship this election to play on their racism and fear. He knows his base and what motivates them.

I'm conservative and I love America.

I support the original intent of the constitution.

I'm a patriot.

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome.

I disagree that we're a nation of immigrants. We're a nation of conquerors. Once we conquered, we became a nation. That nation was comprised of those people who are already here (meaning, they didn't immigrate).

America is a melting pot -- of people who wish to assimilate.

I am motivated by love of America (again, patriot) and American ideals. I will defend her against this radical reinterpretation of what America is.


You're entire post is poppycock.

What???

Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US

4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.

3 million Germans immigrated to the US

the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.

These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

They also went out built their own houses, made their own way, and there was no government umbilical cord to hook to. Hard to compare the illegal immigrants of today to the legal immigrants of that day and time.

(11-02-2018 12:50 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 07:43 AM)Momus Wrote:  Don’t ever buy into the right-wing lies that they love America, believe in the Constitution, or are true “patriots”. They hate American ideals such as equality. They hate the idea that we are a nation of immigrants. They reject America as a melting pot. They are motivated not by love of country or love of American ideals, but by fear and hate. Trump knows that his base is racist and cowardly, so he’s going full tilt on immigrant caravans, “invaders”, and birthright citizenship this election to play on their racism and fear. He knows his base and what motivates them.

I'm conservative and I love America.

I support the original intent of the constitution.

I'm a patriot.

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome.

I disagree that we're a nation of immigrants. We're a nation of conquerors. Once we conquered, we became a nation. That nation was comprised of those people who are already here (meaning, they didn't immigrate).

America is a melting pot -- of people who wish to assimilate.

I am motivated by love of America (again, patriot) and American ideals. I will defend her against this radical reinterpretation of what America is.


You're entire post is poppycock.

What???

Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US

4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.

3 million Germans immigrated to the US

the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.

These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

Legal immigration...lets repeat for our liberals friends...legal immigration...massive difference and that is what we are all fighting about...legal immigration is great...illegal immigration is not great...it's illegal and should be dealt with as such...now, it will be, thanks to this President

In addition to the numerous correct statements made to counter the ridiculous ones...

I'm wondering if you would support immigration, legal or otherwise... that doubled our population today?

If not, then you admit that things are different today than they were... ignoring the obvious that our 4 million square miles for 9, or even 18 million people is VASTLY different from our same 4 million square miles for 350 million, much less 700 million people.

There is nothing morally wrong about secure borders and limits to immigration. There is something pretty obviously wrong about illegal immigration... beginning with, it is illegal.

If you support open borders... that's fine. Go talk to Mexico or Europe about buying property there using a government insured mortgage as we have in this country... or about getting assistance... I could go on.

(11-02-2018 04:16 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(11-02-2018 12:50 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 07:43 AM)Momus Wrote:  Don’t ever buy into the right-wing lies that they love America, believe in the Constitution, or are true “patriots”. They hate American ideals such as equality. They hate the idea that we are a nation of immigrants. They reject America as a melting pot. They are motivated not by love of country or love of American ideals, but by fear and hate. Trump knows that his base is racist and cowardly, so he’s going full tilt on immigrant caravans, “invaders”, and birthright citizenship this election to play on their racism and fear. He knows his base and what motivates them.

I'm conservative and I love America.

I support the original intent of the constitution.

I'm a patriot.

I support equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome.

I disagree that we're a nation of immigrants. We're a nation of conquerors. Once we conquered, we became a nation. That nation was comprised of those people who are already here (meaning, they didn't immigrate).

America is a melting pot -- of people who wish to assimilate.

I am motivated by love of America (again, patriot) and American ideals. I will defend her against this radical reinterpretation of what America is.


You're entire post is poppycock.

What???

Between the mid-1800's and early 1900's
4 million Italians immigrated to the US

4.5 million Irish-Catholics immigrated...which is crazy because Ireland only had a total population of 8 million in 1840.

3 million Germans immigrated to the US

the total population of the US was only 9 million in 1820... so these immigrants are largely responsible for doubling the size of the country.

These were not conquerors and they were not people who were required to take citizenship tests or wait months to become naturalized citizens. These were people who came to this country to escape disease, discrimination and poverty, just like the immigrants coming from central America. The hate being spewed by the right is short-sighted and its morally wrong.

Legal immigration...lets repeat for our liberals friends...legal immigration...massive difference and that is what we are all fighting about...legal immigration is great...illegal immigration is not great...it's illegal and should be dealt with as such...now, it will be, thanks to this President

They entered this country in caravans just like the people from central America. The difference is there really were no immigration laws in place until the 1920’s. Immigration laws and quotas were put into place to keep certain groups out... originally, it was Asians.

(11-02-2018 08:57 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 04:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 02:50 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(11-01-2018 02:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(10-31-2018 11:04 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  The 14th was included, in part, as a buttress to the Civil Rights Act of 1866 which focused on ensuring blacks were honored as citizens of the US.

One can, at least, make an argument that the clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" requires the parents of US born children to be in the US under legal circumstances.

The only real Supreme Court case (Wong Kim) dealt with a child of Chinese parents who were in the US legally under a type of official work visa.

Certainly, any case involving children born in the US to foreign parents not here legally in the US is distinguishable, at least from the facts in the Wong Kim case.

There was, in fact, another case. The Supreme Court had held in Elk v. Wilkins (1884) that birthplace by itself was not sufficient to grant citizenship to a Native American.

But that case wouldn't really have any precedential value as it solely focused on the "Indian nation" within the US and the Federal laws that only applied to indians.

There is some decent dicta in the opinion but the holding has little to no value with respect to Trump's proposed EO.

And the difference between a citizen of an 'Indian nation' (a sovereign, mind you) and a citizen of Guatemala is..... what exactly?

The thing that is absolutely clear in the case is that a birth on US soil is not dispositive for citizenship under the Constitution (i.e. birthright citizenship). If the dispositive test was 'birth on US soil' birthright citizenship, then Elk *had* to be decided contrary to the actual decision. In that respect, Elk definitely is precedential.

No, because it relied upon the constitutionality of a federal law dealing with indians.

A very narrow case applied to a specific federal law.

Again, some decent dicta, but a narrow ruling.

With big implications on the interpretation of the 14th.

*If* the test is "birth on soil == US citizenship" as a matter of law via the 14th, Elk *had* to be decided in manner contrary to how is *was* decided. It was not, it was decided as a matter not of the 14th amendment but as a matter of statute, *and* in a manner that went contrary to the rule as stated above.

Elk is very much precedent that birthright citizenship is not ipso facto a matter of the 14th Amendment.

(11-02-2018 04:47 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  They entered this country in caravans just like the people from central America. The difference is there really were no immigration laws in place until the 1920’s. Immigration laws and quotas were put into place to keep certain groups out... originally, it was Asians.

First, the Chinese exclusion act was 1882.... and Democrats were the party of racists... Do you really want to talk about things having not changed in the past 100 years?

If this is so important to the left, why didn't Obama and the Congress your party controlled fix this and eliminate borders, Immigration laws etc etc etc? Why wasn't ANY institutionalized racism addressed? Why wasn't gun control addressed?

You guys talk a whole lot, but it's telling when almost the ONLY thing you passed when you had total control was a crappy healthcare reform bill. I'm not talking about 55/45 control where you still need some Republicans to go along... I mean where you can't be stopped.

You had that power, and you gave away free healthcare and phones... and billions to Wall Street. Just so I could see them put up or shut up (and I'd bet it would be shut up)... I'd like for Republicans to have 60% and see what they actually prioritize when they don't have to compromise. We suspect Republicans are hypocrites, but we have PROOF that Democrats are (the parties)

All this talk about how we should open our borders to everyone overlooks one important fact. It is not a zero cost option. There are any number of costs, some of them financial, if we do not have some sort of orderly immigration process. I am all for legal immigration, more of it, as a matter of fact. But I am equally in favor of taking steps to stop the flow of illegal immigrants.

Take a look at most other countries. You don't just show up at the border and come in until they figure out what to do with you. They don't have "catch and release." You follow the proper procedures, and you have a visa when you show up, or you don't get in.

And yes, I know the numeric majority of our illegals are folks who overstayed their visa rather than snuck in. We need to get control of that too.

We simply do not have a sensible immigration policy at this point, and as long as both parties would rather use it as a political issue rather than fix the problem, we are not going to. The one person I've seen make an attempt to fix the problem is Donald Trump--who has put forth the only thing like a reasonable compromise proposal.

(11-02-2018 05:02 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  If this is so important to the left, why didn't Obama and the Congress your party controlled fix this and eliminate borders, Immigration laws etc etc etc? Why wasn't ANY institutionalized racism addressed? Why wasn't gun control addressed?

Because they'd rather have a political issue than solve the problem.