(10-19-2018 07:30 PM)solohawks Wrote:  [quote='DavidSt' pid='15590529' dateline='1539993484']

Quote: We have not gotten to the point where an Independent team could challenge the rule.

It's not a rule, it's a contractual agreement. If I have a contract to give a prize to best poster among usfffan, ken d, brucemcf, stever20, and quo basis, David St cannot win that prize

^ No matter what he considers himself or a third party classifies him as. It’s irrelevant as far as the contract is concerned.

(10-19-2018 07:00 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 06:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

Quote:Independents like BYU are not considered part of the Group of Five and thus are not guaranteed access.

The issue here is that BYU also considers themselves as part of the P5.

Now, the last part also make it that there is a chance of an unbeaten BYU could go to the access bowl or a NY 6 bowl. If the conference champs of the G5 have 2 or more losses while BYU have none? BYU gets the spot. The (GUARANTEED) part in the rules still gives the Independents a chance to get the access spot. We have not gotten to the point where an Independent team could challenge the rule.

BYU, UMass, NMSU, Army, Notre Dame can get a CFP or New Year's At-Large.

They can not get the G5 spot.

Exactly. There are three bowls with conference contracts in place for the two years out of three they are not semi-final hosts, Orange, Sugar and Rose, and three bowls with At-Large spots, Cotton, Fiesta and Peach. The Go5 spot is a guarantee to be included among the available At-Large spots.

One At-Large spot is set aside for the best of the Go5 champions, and the Go5 conferences as a group divide up the equivalent of one A5 conference share of the CFP payout.

For any FBS Independent, the formal path into the spot set aside for the Go5 is in the first instance about convincing one of the Go5 conferences to choose them as the conference champion, instead of one of the conferences own members. This will never happen.

Then in the second instance a successful rule challenge to the rule that the school selected as conference champion has to be a school competing in the competition organized by that conference ... and there is no reason for such a silly challenge to succeed.

Only after surmounting an impossibility and an extreme unlikelihood do they even get to the point where the CFP committee's ranking of that school's team even matters.

And if they are that adept at making impossible and unlikely things happen, they should just get the CFP committee to rank them high enough to take one of the other At-Large spots. There's always at least one available, no matter where we are in the semi-final bowl rotation.

(10-19-2018 07:00 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 06:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

Quote:Independents like BYU are not considered part of the Group of Five and thus are not guaranteed access.

The issue here is that BYU also considers themselves as part of the P5.

Now, the last part also make it that there is a chance of an unbeaten BYU could go to the access bowl or a NY 6 bowl. If the conference champs of the G5 have 2 or more losses while BYU have none? BYU gets the spot. The (GUARANTEED) part in the rules still gives the Independents a chance to get the access spot. We have not gotten to the point where an Independent team could challenge the rule.

BYU, UMass, NMSU, Army, Notre Dame can get a CFP or New Year's At-Large.

They can not get the G5 spot.

Almost correct. Notre Dame is also contractually eligible for the Orange Bowl in years when it is not a playoff bowl, subject to certain constraints related to the B1G and SEC.

For example, this year the OB is a playoff game so it doesn't apply, but next year when it isn't, Notre Dame would play in the Orange Bowl if it isn't in the playoffs and is ranked higher than the highest available SEC and B1G teams, where 'highest available' would mean among B1G and SEC teams that aren't in the playoffs or the Sugar and Rose bowls, respectively, as those bowls have first dibs over the OB on the highest-rated SEC and B1G teams.

One possible exception - if the highest rated SEC/B1G/Notre Dame team would create a rematch in the OB with the ACC opponent, a situation quite possible given Notre Dame's scheduling arrangement with the ACC, the Orange Bowl has the option of passing over that highest rated team and selecting the next-highest, with the highest-rated team passed over likely going to an Access Bowl though that is not assured.

Note that this contract does give Notre Dame another back-door way into an Access Bowl as well: In years like this one, where the Orange Bowl is a playoff bowl, if Notre Dame is not in the playoffs but is the highest ranked available team compared to the available SEC and B1G teams, such that they would have gone to the Orange Bowl if it was not a playoff bowl, then Notre Dame IS guaranteed a spot in an Access Bowl, even if they otherwise wouldn't be based on their ranking compared to teams from other conferences. In that case Notre Dame would leap a higher-ranked team from the Big 12, PAC, ACC, or G5 who otherwise would have qualified for an at-large Access spot.

To give an example of how this could work:

Playoffs: #1 Alabama (SEC Champ), #2 Clemson (ACC Champ), #3 Oklahoma (Big 12 Champ), #4 Ohio State (B1G Champ). These occupy the Orange and Cotton Bowls.

Rose Bowl: #10 Stanford (PAC champ) vs #5 Michigan (next-highest B1G team).

Sugar Bowl: #6 Georgia (next-highest SEC team) vs #7 Texas (next-highest Big 12 team).

Peach Bowl: #8 UCF (top-ranked G5 champ) vs #9 NC State (at-large, next-highest ranked team, placed here for geographical reasons)

Fiesta Bowl:

Now let's say that the next-highest ranked teams are ... #11 Oregon, #12 Cincinnati, #13 Notre Dame

Ordinarily, the Fiesta would have two at-large spots, and the game would match #11 Oregon vs #12 Cincinnati as those are the next-highest ranked teams, but, because if the Orange Bowl had not been a playoff bowl, Notre Dame would have qualified for it**, they would leap-frog Cincinnati and play Oregon in the Fiesta Bowl. Cincy would be left out of the NY6.

** E.g., had the playoffs been the Peach and Fiesta Bowls, Alabama and Clemson would have played in those games, while Michigan and Georgia would have played in the Rose and Sugar bowls, thus making Notre Dame the highest-ranked team available to play the ACC in the Orange Bowl.

My G5 ranking system uses a blend of AP, Coaches, Sagarin, Colley, ESPN FPI, SP+ and Massey Composite And has 15 teams registering going into today’s games...

*Total points in ( )

1. UCF (67)
2. Cincy (48)
2. Fres (48)
4. App (44)
5. USU (38)
6. USF (32)
7. SDS (26)
8. Hou (19)
9. BSU (18)
10.Mem (14)
11.UNT (10)
12.Buff (9)
13.UAB (4)
13.GASO(4)
15.Temp (2)

(10-20-2018 05:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 07:00 PM)dbackjon ' Wrote:  BYU, UMass, NMSU, Army, Notre Dame can get a CFP or New Year's At-Large.

They can not get the G5 spot.

Almost correct. Notre Dame is also contractually eligible for the Orange Bowl in years when it is not a playoff bowl, subject to certain constraints related to the B1G and SEC. ...

To be fair to quo vadis, while what he said was incomplete, it was totally correct as far as it goes ... Notre Dame can indeed get an At-Large spot or a CFP spot, and can indeed not get the Go5 spot.

They can also, unlike the other four FBS independents, under certain circumstances, gain a Contract Bowl spot, and thanks for detailing those circumstances, since I had a vague recollection that there where complexities of what happened depending on whether different Contract bowls are or are not hosting Semi-Finals when some Contract but didn't have time to wade through the weeds to work out what those details were.

Indeed, Notre Dame also, unlike the other four FBS Independents, are part of the Autonomy group, so to be perfectly precise, the "A5" is the A5+1.

(10-20-2018 05:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 07:00 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 06:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

Quote:Independents like BYU are not considered part of the Group of Five and thus are not guaranteed access.

The issue here is that BYU also considers themselves as part of the P5.

Now, the last part also make it that there is a chance of an unbeaten BYU could go to the access bowl or a NY 6 bowl. If the conference champs of the G5 have 2 or more losses while BYU have none? BYU gets the spot. The (GUARANTEED) part in the rules still gives the Independents a chance to get the access spot. We have not gotten to the point where an Independent team could challenge the rule.

BYU, UMass, NMSU, Army, Notre Dame can get a CFP or New Year's At-Large.

They can not get the G5 spot.

Almost correct. Notre Dame is also contractually eligible for the Orange Bowl in years when it is not a playoff bowl, subject to certain constraints related to the B1G and SEC.

For example, this year the OB is a playoff game so it doesn't apply, but next year when it isn't, Notre Dame would play in the Orange Bowl if it isn't in the playoffs and is ranked higher than the highest available SEC and B1G teams, where 'highest available' would mean among B1G and SEC teams that aren't in the playoffs or the Sugar and Rose bowls, respectively, as those bowls have first dibs over the OB on the highest-rated SEC and B1G teams.

One possible exception - if the highest rated SEC/B1G/Notre Dame team would create a rematch in the OB with the ACC opponent, a situation quite possible given Notre Dame's scheduling arrangement with the ACC, the Orange Bowl has the option of passing over that highest rated team and selecting the next-highest, with the highest-rated team passed over likely going to an Access Bowl though that is not assured.

Note that this contract does give Notre Dame another back-door way into an Access Bowl as well: In years like this one, where the Orange Bowl is a playoff bowl, if Notre Dame is not in the playoffs but is the highest ranked available team compared to the available SEC and B1G teams, such that they would have gone to the Orange Bowl if it was not a playoff bowl, then Notre Dame IS guaranteed a spot in an Access Bowl, even if they otherwise wouldn't be based on their ranking compared to teams from other conferences. In that case Notre Dame would leap a higher-ranked team from the Big 12, PAC, ACC, or G5 who otherwise would have qualified for an at-large Access spot.

To give an example of how this could work:

Playoffs: #1 Alabama (SEC Champ), #2 Clemson (ACC Champ), #3 Oklahoma (Big 12 Champ), #4 Ohio State (B1G Champ). These occupy the Orange and Cotton Bowls.

Rose Bowl: #10 Stanford (PAC champ) vs #5 Michigan (next-highest B1G team).

Sugar Bowl: #6 Georgia (next-highest SEC team) vs #7 Texas (next-highest Big 12 team).

Peach Bowl: #8 UCF (top-ranked G5 champ) vs #9 NC State (at-large, next-highest ranked team, placed here for geographical reasons)

Fiesta Bowl:

Now let's say that the next-highest ranked teams are ... #11 Oregon, #12 Cincinnati, #13 Notre Dame

Ordinarily, the Fiesta would have two at-large spots, and the game would match #11 Oregon vs #12 Cincinnati as those are the next-highest ranked teams, but, because if the Orange Bowl had not been a playoff bowl, Notre Dame would have qualified for it**, they would leap-frog Cincinnati and play Oregon in the Fiesta Bowl. Cincy would be left out of the NY6.

** E.g., had the playoffs been the Peach and Fiesta Bowls, Alabama and Clemson would have played in those games, while Michigan and Georgia would have played in the Rose and Sugar bowls, thus making Notre Dame the highest-ranked team available to play the ACC in the Orange Bowl.

I do not think you are correct with Notre Dame and situation like this year where Orange Bowl doesn't host their regular game but rather is semifinal. The ACC team as a displaced champion would be guaranteed in an access bowl should they not make the playoff. But Notre Dame/SEC/Big Ten team isn't considered a conference champion.....

BYU thinks they are P5 but they are not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(10-20-2018 10:37 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-20-2018 05:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 07:00 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-19-2018 06:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

Quote:Independents like BYU are not considered part of the Group of Five and thus are not guaranteed access.

The issue here is that BYU also considers themselves as part of the P5.

Now, the last part also make it that there is a chance of an unbeaten BYU could go to the access bowl or a NY 6 bowl. If the conference champs of the G5 have 2 or more losses while BYU have none? BYU gets the spot. The (GUARANTEED) part in the rules still gives the Independents a chance to get the access spot. We have not gotten to the point where an Independent team could challenge the rule.

BYU, UMass, NMSU, Army, Notre Dame can get a CFP or New Year's At-Large.

They can not get the G5 spot.

Almost correct. Notre Dame is also contractually eligible for the Orange Bowl in years when it is not a playoff bowl, subject to certain constraints related to the B1G and SEC.

For example, this year the OB is a playoff game so it doesn't apply, but next year when it isn't, Notre Dame would play in the Orange Bowl if it isn't in the playoffs and is ranked higher than the highest available SEC and B1G teams, where 'highest available' would mean among B1G and SEC teams that aren't in the playoffs or the Sugar and Rose bowls, respectively, as those bowls have first dibs over the OB on the highest-rated SEC and B1G teams.

One possible exception - if the highest rated SEC/B1G/Notre Dame team would create a rematch in the OB with the ACC opponent, a situation quite possible given Notre Dame's scheduling arrangement with the ACC, the Orange Bowl has the option of passing over that highest rated team and selecting the next-highest, with the highest-rated team passed over likely going to an Access Bowl though that is not assured.

Note that this contract does give Notre Dame another back-door way into an Access Bowl as well: In years like this one, where the Orange Bowl is a playoff bowl, if Notre Dame is not in the playoffs but is the highest ranked available team compared to the available SEC and B1G teams, such that they would have gone to the Orange Bowl if it was not a playoff bowl, then Notre Dame IS guaranteed a spot in an Access Bowl, even if they otherwise wouldn't be based on their ranking compared to teams from other conferences. In that case Notre Dame would leap a higher-ranked team from the Big 12, PAC, ACC, or G5 who otherwise would have qualified for an at-large Access spot.

To give an example of how this could work:

Playoffs: #1 Alabama (SEC Champ), #2 Clemson (ACC Champ), #3 Oklahoma (Big 12 Champ), #4 Ohio State (B1G Champ). These occupy the Orange and Cotton Bowls.

Rose Bowl: #10 Stanford (PAC champ) vs #5 Michigan (next-highest B1G team).

Sugar Bowl: #6 Georgia (next-highest SEC team) vs #7 Texas (next-highest Big 12 team).

Peach Bowl: #8 UCF (top-ranked G5 champ) vs #9 NC State (at-large, next-highest ranked team, placed here for geographical reasons)

Fiesta Bowl:

Now let's say that the next-highest ranked teams are ... #11 Oregon, #12 Cincinnati, #13 Notre Dame

Ordinarily, the Fiesta would have two at-large spots, and the game would match #11 Oregon vs #12 Cincinnati as those are the next-highest ranked teams, but, because if the Orange Bowl had not been a playoff bowl, Notre Dame would have qualified for it**, they would leap-frog Cincinnati and play Oregon in the Fiesta Bowl. Cincy would be left out of the NY6.

** E.g., had the playoffs been the Peach and Fiesta Bowls, Alabama and Clemson would have played in those games, while Michigan and Georgia would have played in the Rose and Sugar bowls, thus making Notre Dame the highest-ranked team available to play the ACC in the Orange Bowl.

I do not think you are correct with Notre Dame and situation like this year where Orange Bowl doesn't host their regular game but rather is semifinal. The ACC team as a displaced champion would be guaranteed in an access bowl should they not make the playoff. But Notre Dame/SEC/Big Ten team isn't considered a conference champion.....

It comes from this article:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...-agreement

"When the Orange Bowl hosts the national semifinals, the ACC champion and the highest-ranked available team from Notre Dame, the Big Ten or the SEC will be placed in an access bowl instead."

Note that as my example indicates, it does work mathematically, that is, giving ND that Access spot does not conflict with any of the other contracts. And, it makes sense, because even though ND (or the B1G or SEC team, had they been the Orange Bowl team) aren't conference champs, they are contract teams being displaced.

north Texas lost their 2nd game.
Memphis lost their 3rd game. They are eliminated.
Cincinnati lost their 1st game.
USF nearly choke to UConn.
San Diego State nearly lost to San Jose State.

Buffalo, Fresno State, UAB, UCF, Georgia Southern, Appalachian State, La. Tech, FIU, Marshall, W. Michigan, Utah State, Hawaii, and Troy are the better teams this week.

Even USF and San Diego State won? They nearly lost to the cellar dwellers of their conferences.

1. UCF 6-0 (AAC)
2. USF 7-0 (AAC)
3. Fresno St (6-1) MWC)
4. San Diego St (6-1) (MWC)
5. Utah St (6-1) (MWC)
6. Houston (6-1) (AAC)
7. Cincinnati (6-1) (AAC)
8. App (6-1) (SB)
9. Boise (5-2) (MWC)
10. Buffalo (6-1) (MAC)
10. UAB (6-1) (CUSA)

(10-21-2018 08:07 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  north Texas lost their 2nd game.
Memphis lost their 3rd game. They are eliminated.
Cincinnati lost their 1st game.
USF nearly choke to UConn.
San Diego State nearly lost to San Jose State.

Buffalo, Fresno State, UAB, UCF, Georgia Southern, Appalachian State, La. Tech, FIU, Marshall, W. Michigan, Utah State, Hawaii, and Troy are the better teams this week.

Even USF and San Diego State won? They nearly lost to the cellar dwellers of their conferences.

Hawaii was destroyed by Nevada.

you know what's funny- Hawaii has a really good shot of not even being bowl eligible. They need 1 more win from Fresno St, Utah St, UNLV, and San Diego St.

(10-21-2018 08:52 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCF 6-0 (AAC)
2. USF 7-0 (AAC)
3. Fresno St (6-1) MWC)
4. San Diego St (6-1) (MWC)
5. Utah St (6-1) (MWC)
6. Houston (6-1) (AAC)
7. Cincinnati (6-1) (AAC)
8. App (6-1) (SB)
9. Boise (5-2) (MWC)
10. Buffalo (6-1) (MAC)
10. UAB (6-1) (CUSA)

Just curious but who has Fresno or SDSU, or even Utah state beat that would make you believe that they're better that Houston or Cincy. Honestly not trolling but I don't understand why so many people are trying so hard to push the narrative of the mwc being on the same level as the AAC.

(10-21-2018 08:52 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCF 6-0 (AAC)
2. USF 7-0 (AAC)
3. Fresno St (6-1) MWC)
4. San Diego St (6-1) (MWC)
5. Utah St (6-1) (MWC)
6. Houston (6-1) (AAC)
7. Cincinnati (6-1) (AAC)
8. App (6-1) (SB)
9. Boise (5-2) (MWC)
10. Buffalo (6-1) (MAC)
10. UAB (6-1) (CUSA)

Flip Cincy and App

(10-21-2018 10:14 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  

(10-21-2018 08:52 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCF 6-0 (AAC)
2. USF 7-0 (AAC)
3. Fresno St (6-1) MWC)
4. San Diego St (6-1) (MWC)
5. Utah St (6-1) (MWC)
6. Houston (6-1) (AAC)
7. Cincinnati (6-1) (AAC)
8. App (6-1) (SB)
9. Boise (5-2) (MWC)
10. Buffalo (6-1) (MAC)
10. UAB (6-1) (CUSA)

Just curious but who has Fresno or SDSU, or even Utah state beat that would make you believe that they're better that Houston or Cincy. Honestly not trolling but I don't understand why so many people are trying so hard to push the narrative of the mwc being on the same level as the AAC.

Fresno blew out UCLA at UCLA. (Cinci won a close one)
SDSU beat AZ St and Boise.
Utah St blew out BYU at BYU.
Essentially 3-7 could be all ranked 3 though.
As for “so many people trying to push the narrative of the MWC being on the same level,of the AAC.”—? I’m just ranking the best teams IMO. Those are my top 11.

(10-21-2018 10:14 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  

(10-21-2018 08:52 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCF 6-0 (AAC)
2. USF 7-0 (AAC)
3. Fresno St (6-1) MWC)
4. San Diego St (6-1) (MWC)
5. Utah St (6-1) (MWC)
6. Houston (6-1) (AAC)
7. Cincinnati (6-1) (AAC)
8. App (6-1) (SB)
9. Boise (5-2) (MWC)
10. Buffalo (6-1) (MAC)
10. UAB (6-1) (CUSA)

Just curious but who has Fresno or SDSU, or even Utah state beat that would make you believe that they're better that Houston or Cincy. Honestly not trolling but I don't understand why so many people are trying so hard to push the narrative of the mwc being on the same level as the AAC.

Well SDSU barely beat 0-7 SJSU in San Diego, so there is that. SDSU also beat overrated Boise State in Boise.

UCF has not beaten a team with a winning record.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

(10-21-2018 10:04 AM)stever20 Wrote:  you know what's funny- Hawaii has a really good shot of not even being bowl eligible. They need 1 more win from Fresno St, Utah St, UNLV, and San Diego St.

Hawaii will pummel UNLV. They will be bowl eligible.

(10-19-2018 06:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

Quote:Independents like BYU are not considered part of the Group of Five and thus are not guaranteed access.

The issue here is that BYU also considers themselves as part of the P5.

Now, the last part also make it that there is a chance of an unbeaten BYU could go to the access bowl or a NY 6 bowl. If the conference champs of the G5 have 2 or more losses while BYU have none? BYU gets the spot. The (GUARANTEED) part in the rules still gives the Independents a chance to get the access spot. We have not gotten to the point where an Independent team could challenge the rule.

You are one stubborn man Daveyst

(10-21-2018 10:14 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  

(10-21-2018 08:52 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCF 6-0 (AAC)
2. USF 7-0 (AAC)
3. Fresno St (6-1) MWC)
4. San Diego St (6-1) (MWC)
5. Utah St (6-1) (MWC)
6. Houston (6-1) (AAC)
7. Cincinnati (6-1) (AAC)
8. App (6-1) (SB)
9. Boise (5-2) (MWC)
10. Buffalo (6-1) (MAC)
10. UAB (6-1) (CUSA)

Just curious but who has Fresno or SDSU, or even Utah state beat that would make you believe that they're better that Houston or Cincy. Honestly not trolling but I don't understand why so many people are trying so hard to push the narrative of the mwc being on the same level as the AAC.

Essentially this same Fresno team beat Houston in the bowl game last year and Fresno destroyed UCLA while Cincy barely got by UCLA. Boise destroyed UConn who just hung tough with USF. Granted we don't have many head to head data points this year but we do have some indicators.