Since we have other counterfactuals going on let's go further back in time. If Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M would have stuck with the SWC what changes? Would LSU have joined before the creation of the SEC? Oh what might have been...

Phillips and Southwestern were members as well.

(09-25-2018 11:00 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Phillips and Southwestern were members as well.

I'm well aware. But this is my counterfactual and I don't want to talk about them at all.

What would have happened if David St’s parents never met?


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(09-25-2018 10:50 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Since we have other counterfactuals going on let's go further back in time. If Oklahoma and Oklahoma A&M would have stuck with the SWC what changes? Would LSU have joined before the creation of the SEC? Oh what might have been...

You would have ask Huey Long. He would have made that decision and I suspect he would have kept LSU in the Southern Conference, and then the SEC.

(09-25-2018 11:00 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Phillips and Southwestern were members as well.

They are a moot issue. They still ind up being to small and poor to compete and drop out.

If the Oklahoma schools never leave the SWC then the conference still exists today.

A conference of Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Arkansas, Baylor, TCU, SMU, and Rice eventually grows to include Texas Tech and Houston.

Meanwhile in the Plains States, the critical loss of those schools pushes the MVC/Big 7 to the brink. I venture to say that Missouri, Kansas, Iowa St, and Nebraska reach out the Big Ten to try and creat a Big 14.

If that fails their options are to look to the Rockies or the Ohio/Mississippi River. Options include Colorado, Colorado St, Wyoming, BYU, and Utah or Memphis, Louisville, and Cincinnati.

(09-25-2018 04:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Meanwhile in the Plains States, the critical loss of those schools pushes the MVC/Big 7 to the brink.

OU and Ok St were not in the MVIAA before joining the SWC. They left the SWC to join the MVIAA, which later split into the Big 6 (7/8) and the MVC.

After OU and Ok St left, the SWC membership (starting in 1926) was Arkansas, Baylor, Rice, SMU, TCU, TAMU, and UT. I agree that if OU and Ok St had never left this group, it could have survived even with four private schools; today's ACC has five, or six including Notre Dame.

If OU and Ok St had never joined the MVIAA, then maybe the public/private split of the MVIAA doesn't happen, and maybe the MVIAA public universities (Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa State) eventually join up with the larger universities (BYU, Colorado, Colorado State, Utah, Utah State, Wyoming) in the Mountain States Conference, the conference that Colorado left in 1947 to join the Big 6.

If Oklahoma and Oklahoma State (née Oklahoma A&M) never join the Big 8, you wonder if the modern day Missouri Valley Conference even exists.

Things would have been unchanged until 1928 when Washington (Saint Louis), Drake, and Grinnell left, pushing the MVIAA (Big 6/7/8) down to five schools. Colorado did not join until 1947. All those schools left the MVIAA to form the MVC, in 1928. Creighton and Butler joined the MVC in 1928 and 1932, and Tulsa replaces Butler in 1934. Washburn and Saint Louis would join the MVC later in the 1930s.

Of course it’s also possible the MVC is the survivor and the MVIAA/Big 8 is not. If you look strictly at current FBS schools in the MVC (including the era claimed by both the Big 8 and MVC), you have the following:

Iowa (left 1911)
Iowa State
Kansas
Missouri
Nebraska
Kansas State
Tulsa
Houston (1951-60)
Cincinnati (1957-70)
North Texas (1957-75)
Louisville (1963-75)
Memphis (1968-73)
New Mexico State (1970-83)

Obviously the MVC wouldn’t have been able to keep anyone from defecting to the ACC, SEC, or Big 10. Houston would probably also be a goner when the SWC came calling in 1972. So by 1972 MVC football looks like this:

Colorado
Drake (dropped after 1974 season)
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Louisville
Memphis
Missouri
Nebraska
New Mexico State
North Texas
Tulsa
West Texas A&M
Wichita State

That might have held together when the real life MVC did not. It’s also possible Cincinnati would have stayed.

This also would have likely prevented C-USA from sponsoring football, as Louisville, Memphis, Houston, and likely Cincinnati would be off the table. Big West football likely would have been gone as well unless if Southern Miss and Tulane joined the other four (Boise State, Idaho, Nevada, and Utah State) as affiliates.

Assuming West Texas A&M still drops down, and Wichita State still drops football, and three schools still bolt for P4 conferences, it would be hard pressed for the MVC to be a power confercne today:

Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Memphis
Missouri
New Mexico State
North Texas
Tulsa

Assuming the SEC expands from 10 to 14 in 2012 with Arkansas and Texas A&M, South Carolina, and West Virginia, the SWC adds Kansas and Missouri. The SWC then expands from nine to ten with Memphis.

The Big 8 and Big East, both desperate to retain power conference status, work out a deal where the remaining Big East football teams join the Big 8:

Iowa State
Kansas State
Navy (football only, plays one conference home game in Texas every other year)
New Mexico State
North Texas
Tulsa

Central Florida
Cincinnati
Connecticut
East Carolina
South Florida
Temple

Creighton, of course, joins the Big East. Tulane remains in Conference USA, bumping UTSA to the Sun Belt.

The 1975-1994 additions to the real life MVC would have pr Baby gravitated to what is now the Horizon League.

I think the SWC survives. When Houston joins, they add a 12th out of Tulane, Kansas or Colorado.

Its possible the Pac adds CU and doesn't add Arizona and Arizona St.

(09-26-2018 07:29 AM)bullet Wrote:  I think the SWC survives. When Houston joins, they add a 12th out of Tulane, Kansas or Colorado.

I think Tulane in this case. Great market, good recruiting, terrific academics (Rice peer), and next door to Texas.

I put this out awhile back in the Alternative history thread and think it still plausible:

(08-05-2017 07:29 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  Alternative SWC:

When formed in 1914, the original SWC looked like this:

Texas A&M

UT-Austin

Arkansas

Baylor

Rice

Oklahoma

Oklahoma A&M (later OSU)


(Southwestern was also part of the original 1915 group but would only be a member for one year so I'm ignoring them)

Invitations were also issued to LSU and Ole Miss but they declined. In this scenario they accept and the Oklahoma schools stay as members. SMU and TCU also both join by 1923 like in real life.

So in 1924 the conference looks like this:

Texas A&M
TCU
UT-Austin
SMU
Baylor
Rice
Arkansas
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
LSU
Ole Miss

Nebraska and then Kansas, Missouri are later added to form a 14 team super SWC that looks like this today (with permanent opposite division opponent in parenthesis)



Texas A&M (Nebraska)
UT-Austin (Oklahoma)
Arkansas (LSU)
SMU (Ole Miss)
TCU (Oklahoma State)
Baylor (Missouri)
Rice (Kansas)

(09-26-2018 07:30 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its possible the Pac adds CU and doesn't add Arizona and Arizona St.

Anything's possible, but it would have been a huge blunder if the Arizona schools were never added. The Phoenix media market was already larger than Denver's market, and almost as large as Seattle's market, on the day the Arizona schools joined the Pac, and it's become a much larger market since then. The Phoenix metro population has almost tripled between 1980 and today.

I think some time lines need to be looked at on this:

Oklahoma joined SWC in 1915, left in 1919. So only 4 years.
Oklahoma A&M/State joined the SWC in 1915 and left after 1925 to join the MVC along with the rest.

So they were in SWC longer. Also Oklahoma State didn't get to join the Big 8 until 1957.

LSU went to the 1914 meeting to form the SWC but didn't join the conference.

Never heard about Ole Miss and the SEC.

Very interesting. In my opinion, possible scenarios if OU and OSU never left the Southwest Conference:

• The Big 5 of the MVIAA would have stayed together as long as possible.
• Not sure if they would have taken a private school such as Drake, Washington of St. Louis, or Tulsa in those days to expand conference numbers.
• Big 5 takes Colorado to make 6. It is possible that they also take Colorado State and Wyoming to go to 8. Until its dying day, one thing the Big 8 took pride in was that it was the "nation's oldest conference made up solely of public universities". The old Big 8 was created by and for flagship and land-grant schools.
• Meanwhile, the SWC stays with 9 members until Texas Tech is added in 1960. Since conferences didn't go above 10 members until the 90's, Houston is on the outside looking in at this point. In 1960, Texas Tech exercised more political pull and were able to get into the SWC.
• The scandals of the 80's still happen. OU and OSU were recruiting the same players as the SWC schools, and were penalized severely.
• Therefore, Arkansas takes advantage of the situation and accepts the offer to go to the SEC in 1992.
• The issue that led to the formation of the Big 12 would still exist: lack of television sets in the Plains states. They needed the TV markets in Texas to obtain a larger TV contract.
• The SWC would be in a slightly stronger position with OU and OSU on their side, with the conference in two states instead of one (after Arkansas left for the SEC). After Arkansas left the SWC, one of the strikes against it was that all of their teams were in one state.
• From that position of strength, the Texas seven (UT, A&M, Tech, SMU, TCU, Baylor, and Rice), OU, and OSU invite Nebraska, Kansas, and Missouri to go to 12. Houston is snubbed again. Rice continues to play at the highest level possible.
• Colorado and Utah are invited to the Pac 10.
• This version of the SWC would have still disintegrated, as A&M and Mizzou would still have gone to the SEC when they did, and Nebraska would have gone to the B1G when they did.
• Houston moves into the SWC as a replacement for A&M. At that time, 12 teams were needed for a football championship game. Kansas State and Iowa State would be brought in as teams 11 and 12.

These are crazy scenarios. It could have gone any number of ways. You can blow holes in all of them. It really impacts every school between the West Coast and the Mississippi River, as the WAC and later MWC may have looked different.

One huge difference is that if OU and OSU had stayed in the SWC for their entire history, the SWC would have had the upper hand in organizing what we know as the Big 12. The private schools of the SWC could have landed in the new conference. Instead, all of the former Big 8 schools had spots in the new conference, and SWC schools were left behind. In this scenario, I leave SMU in the SWC through the death penalty years, just as it happened. They would not have been kicked out.

Another alternate scenario: What if OU moves to the Missouri Valley/Big 6 in 1919, but Oklahoma A&M stays in the SWC? From 1925 to 1958, OAMC was part of the MVC. They were blocked from the group that formed the Big 6, until they were approved in 1957. (1958 is the year that they became Oklahoma State University, but that is irrelevant to their conference affiliation) The Cowboys spent the 30's, 40's, and 50's playing the likes of Drake, Tulsa, and Wichita(State). With 6 Texas schools, Arkansas, and OAMC, the SWC can take Texas Tech and eventually Houston, as they did. OSU remaining in the SWC leads to all sorts of other alternate history.

My brain hurts.

(09-27-2018 06:46 PM)johnintx Wrote:  [*]Meanwhile, the SWC stays with 9 members until Texas Tech is added in 1960. Since conferences didn't go above 10 members until the 90's, Houston is on the outside looking in at this point. In 1960, Texas Tech exercised more political pull and were able to get into the SWC.

Just to this point, conferences absolutely went above 10 before the '90s. Think of the old SoCon, as well as the SEC at its formation. There was also the Rocky Mountain Conference in the '20s and '30s.

(09-27-2018 07:20 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 06:46 PM)johnintx Wrote:  [*]Meanwhile, the SWC stays with 9 members until Texas Tech is added in 1960. Since conferences didn't go above 10 members until the 90's, Houston is on the outside looking in at this point. In 1960, Texas Tech exercised more political pull and were able to get into the SWC.

Just to this point, conferences absolutely went above 10 before the '90s. Think of the old SoCon, as well as the SEC at its formation. There was also the Rocky Mountain Conference and even the MVIAA in its last few years.

I forgot about that..especially the SEC, who had 12 members until Tulane and Georgia Tech left. My apologies.

I'm still not sure if the SWC would have gone above 10 without a championship game, but I could be wrong. Texas politicians tend to get their way.

I'm curious as to what interest the Big Ten would have had in Missouri, Kansas, Iowa St, and Nebraska circa 1928. These 4 could have beven added, creating the Big 14. Kansas St wouldn't have the academics to get in so they get stuck with the little schools.

I just don't see anyone else in that region with a high caliber team in the 20s when they would have been trying to build the MVIAA.