(09-27-2018 06:23 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-26-2018 08:04 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-26-2018 06:22 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The current Big East is not the same as the old Big East. The old Big East was doomed at the start as they prioritized basketball over football. They denied Penn St and refused to change priorities. This is why the ACC survived, they adapted and added FSU when they realized they needed to do so

The Big East was founded as a basketball-first league that had only two members who played the then-equivalent of FBS football, with Pitt later added as a third football-playing member early enough that I'll count them as basically original. The football was later tacked on with swelling membership as an accommodation to those original football-playing members, but it was always a basketball conference and schools had been planning for an eventual split as early as the 90s. Remember that the whole thing was spearheaded by Providence's AD largely as a vehicle for those non-football schools, and I guarantee you Providence feels just fine about their choice to associate with Nova.

It's not hard to make the case that the current version of the Big East - 10 basketball-focused schools playing a double-round-robin yearly and a first-class tournament in MSG - is truer to the original intent of the conference than the eventuall-16-team football/basketball hybrid of the 90s and 00s. Hell, they're a UConn budget crunch away from still having 75% of the original 8 schools in the conference.

Despite what some would have you believe, the Big East is alive and well as originally envisioned.

Half the new Big East is in the central time zone. I dont think that was the vision. No denial from me that it is a successful basketball first conference, but what you see now is not what was envisioned or desired by the likes of Providence, Georgetown, and St John's.

Well, 3/10 are in the CTZ. Half are in the Midwest, though.

(09-27-2018 06:23 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Half the new Big East is in the central time zone. I dont think that was the vision. No denial from me that it is a successful basketball first conference, but what you see now is not what was envisioned or desired by the likes of Providence, Georgetown, and St John's.

That's just the reality of post-realignment college sports - the ACC stretches from the Canadian border down to south beach and out West into corn country. There's a non-zero chance their final member will be Texas. They failed to survive as originally intended as much as anyone. There are no more geographically compact major conferences.

(09-27-2018 08:37 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 06:23 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Half the new Big East is in the central time zone. I dont think that was the vision. No denial from me that it is a successful basketball first conference, but what you see now is not what was envisioned or desired by the likes of Providence, Georgetown, and St John's.

That's just the reality of post-realignment college sports - the ACC stretches from the Canadian border down to south beach and out West into corn country. There's a non-zero chance their final member will be Texas. They failed to survive as originally intended as much as anyone. There are no more geographically compact major conferences.

Right. The Big East (hoops) actually opened the wider-footprint door when they added Miami of Florida in 1991. This was mocked and ridiculed, but was actually a radical, genius move, totally breaking free of our footprint at the time.

Later, adding teams in Chicago and Milwaukee was ridiculed too, but it was a great move. We didn't limit ourselves for artificial reasons, or the weak reason the Marquette isn't in the East... just targeted excellent hoops.

(09-27-2018 09:53 AM)billyjack Wrote:  We didn't limit ourselves for artificial reasons, or the weak reason the Marquette isn't in the East... just targeted excellent hoops.

Also DePaul.

(09-27-2018 10:11 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 09:53 AM)billyjack Wrote:  We didn't limit ourselves for artificial reasons, or the weak reason the Marquette isn't in the East... just targeted excellent hoops.

Also DePaul.

Right but the Big East needed the 8 + 8 balance, and DePaul did fit in with Marquette and Notre Dame in that same part of the country.

(09-26-2018 09:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If you take the original Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 and add BC, Syracuse, and Temple you have your eastern all sports conference. VT and Miami get added eventually.

If the basketball isn't good enough I'm sure the football schools could have peeled away from the likes of Duquesne, UMass and George Washington for some better basketball schools.

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Syracuse
BC
Temple
Villanova
Georgetown
St John's

UConn, Seton Hall, and Providence seek out an alternative league

Step back to 1979.

Syracuse had a great program, but they grew into their current juggernaut status kind of in 4 or so stages:

1. Final Four in 75, but then soon lost their coach to Tulane which gives a sense of their place in college hoops back then.

2. Opening and filling the Carrier Dome in 1980.

3. Signing Pearl Washington for 1984 season.

4. Finally breaking through in 1987 beyond the Sweet-16 under Boeheim. At the end of the 86 season, SU had 10 seasons under Boeheim, never got past the Sweet-16, had Pearl turn pro a year early, and Addison and Alexis were graduating, and SU had just lost in the NCAA's at the Carrier Dome, against Navy of all teams (no one going into this SU-Navy game had ever heard of David Robinson). And Pearl's replacement was a 5-11 guy no one had heard of at that point (Sherman Douglas), and Seikaly was still in his awkward giraffe-on-roller-skates phase.

Going into 87 with a ton of question marks, it's amazing what the 87 team accomplished... a young Douglas, a young Stevie Thompson, a filler player in Howard Triche, a highly-regarded but a freshman in Derrick Coleman, and an awkward Seikaly.

1st 10 years of Boeheim had 3 eras really... the Louie-Bouie Show... then the young 81 BET winners of Santifer, Rautins and Tony "Red" Bruin... then the Pearl years.

Sorry for the long speil, but i'm spelling this all out because...

St John's and Louie Carnesecca would not have joined that Penn State league that you described.

Georgetown also would not have joined. Syracuse alone wasn't a big enough deal to move St John's, and BC wasn't anything special and was worse in hoops in New England than Holy Cross and Rhode Island and UConn (and PC) back then (1979-ish).

With Georgetown, John Thompson is a Providence alum and had a great relationship with Gavitt.

With St John's, they barely agreed to join the original Big East in the first place. They were by far (and still are) the top dog in NYC and "had a good little thing going" as Louie used to say.

To convince St John's to even just join the Big East, Gavitt sat with Louie on plane rides back and forth to Moscow as they were prepping for the 80 Olympics (Gavitt was going to be the 80 USA coach). After 20+ hours in the air, with Gavitt spelling out every detail of his Big East plans, finally Louie agreed, and a lot of his finally agreeing was the trust and friendship he had with Gavitt. Again, SJU would not give up their 1979 status quo for PSU and WVa, and Pitt, etc.

Sorry for the long post.
.

(09-27-2018 10:11 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 09:53 AM)billyjack Wrote:  We didn't limit ourselves for artificial reasons, or the weak reason the Marquette isn't in the East... just targeted excellent hoops.

Also DePaul.

Lol. Weird cuz they were still good through like 2006. Can't believe how far they've fallen.

(09-27-2018 10:58 AM)billyjack Wrote:  

(09-26-2018 09:14 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If you take the original Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 and add BC, Syracuse, and Temple you have your eastern all sports conference. VT and Miami get added eventually.

If the basketball isn't good enough I'm sure the football schools could have peeled away from the likes of Duquesne, UMass and George Washington for some better basketball schools.

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Syracuse
BC
Temple
Villanova
Georgetown
St John's

UConn, Seton Hall, and Providence seek out an alternative league

Step back to 1979.

Syracuse had a great program, but they grew into their current juggernaut status kind of in 4 or so stages:

1. Final Four in 75, but then soon lost their coach to Tulane which gives a sense of their place in college hoops back then.

2. Opening and filling the Carrier Dome in 1980.

3. Signing Pearl Washington for 1984 season.

4. Finally breaking through in 1987 beyond the Sweet-16 under Boeheim. At the end of the 86 season, SU had 10 seasons under Boeheim, never got past the Sweet-16, had Pearl turn pro a year early, and Addison and Alexis were graduating, and SU had just lost in the NCAA's at the Carrier Dome, against Navy of all teams (no one going into this SU-Navy game had ever heard of David Robinson). And Pearl's replacement was a 5-11 guy no one had heard of at that point (Sherman Douglas), and Seikaly was still in his awkward giraffe-on-roller-skates phase.

Going into 87 with a ton of question marks, it's amazing what the 87 team accomplished... a young Douglas, a young Stevie Thompson, a filler player in Howard Triche, a highly-regarded but a freshman in Derrick Coleman, and an awkward Seikaly.

1st 10 years of Boeheim had 3 eras really... the Louie-Bouie Show... then the young 81 BET winners of Santifer, Rautins and Tony "Red" Bruin... then the Pearl years.

Sorry for the long speil, but i'm spelling this all out because...

St John's and Louie Carnesecca would not have joined that Penn State league that you described.

Georgetown also would not have joined. Syracuse alone wasn't a big enough deal to move St John's, and BC wasn't anything special and was worse in hoops in New England than Holy Cross and Rhode Island and UConn (and PC) back then (1979-ish).

With Georgetown, John Thompson is a Providence alum and had a great relationship with Gavitt.

With St John's, they barely agreed to join the original Big East in the first place. They were by far (and still are) the top dog in NYC and "had a good little thing going" as Louie used to say.

To convince St John's to even just join the Big East, Gavitt sat with Louie on plane rides back and forth to Moscow as they were prepping for the 80 Olympics (Gavitt was going to be the 80 USA coach). After 20+ hours in the air, with Gavitt spelling out every detail of his Big East plans, finally Louie agreed, and a lot of his finally agreeing was the trust and friendship he had with Gavitt. Again, SJU would not give up their 1979 status quo for PSU and WVa, and Pitt, etc.

Sorry for the long post.
.

I've excerpted Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel's description of the founding of the Big East below from https://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history.aspx There obviously was no consideration of football, and Jake was a football guy. Until 1979, the NCAA has granted autobids to the winners of ECAC regional tournaments. To keep an autobid, these quasi conferences would have to schedule round robin play beginning with the 1979-80 season. The NCAA also expanded the tournament and eliminated the restriction on the number of bids from a single conference. St. John's choice would have been to go independent with no opportunity for an autobid and with scheduling challenges created by others joining conferences, join a strong eastern regional conference, or join a weak NYC-centric conference. Carnesecca may have pined for the days of eastern independent basketball, but it stopped existing as of the start of the 1979-80 season (Penn State was literally the one and only eastern independent in basketball that year).

Quote:In the Spring of 1978, only a few months after my arrival in Syracuse, Dave Gavitt, Jack Kaiser and Frank Rienzo, Athletics Directors at Providence, St. Johns and Georgetown respectively, gathered to discuss newly imposed NCAA men's basketball in-season scheduling requirements. These requirements forced independent institutions like the four of us to align and schedule schools with whom we had no interest or tradition. Self determination was far better than being told who your partners would be, and so the four of us met for countless hours in countless sessions to determine the make-up of our new conference to be. We considered the quality of men's basketball programs in the northeast, regional representation, significant media markets, etc. Boston College was invited over Holy Cross, UMass and Boston University. Connecticut was then added. Rutgers was extended an invitation but declined because it was aligned in the Atlantic 8 (now the Atlantic 10) along with Penn State. Rutgers didn't feel comfortable disassociating itself with Penn State. Seton Hall took Rutgers spot. Villanova was also in the Atlantic 8, but it joined up a year later over Temple and St. Josephs. Thus, in the first year of operation, 1979-80, we had seven active members which increased to eight in 1980-81.

(09-25-2018 06:27 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  If Rutgers accepted the Big East invite when first offered, then Seton Hall doesn't get offered and Seton Hall's no vote becomes a Rutgers yes vote.

seton hall didn't vote no

Essentially it all boils down to that Penn State, Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College never got on the same page to form an all-sports eastern league with football being the driver.

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(09-25-2018 06:27 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  If Rutgers accepted the Big East invite when first offered, then Seton Hall doesn't get offered and Seton Hall's no vote becomes a Rutgers yes vote.

seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

(09-27-2018 05:09 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(09-25-2018 06:27 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  If Rutgers accepted the Big East invite when first offered, then Seton Hall doesn't get offered and Seton Hall's no vote becomes a Rutgers yes vote.

seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

I'm pretty sure it was Georgetown.

With that being said, if BC and Cuse would have realized how important having a football conference was they could have threatened to leave, forcing a revote that would have been favorable to Penn St.

Truth be told, in 1982 the should have just blown up the Big East and the Eastern 8 and started from scratch.

I think there was some antagonism already there between BC/Cuse and Penn St.

1979--Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, and Syracuse invited Seton Hall, Connecticut (UConn), Holy Cross, Rutgers, Pitt, Villanova, and Boston College
1982--Penn State becomes #12 for all-sports.
Shortly after, they'd add Temple and WVU, to make 14 all-sports and 7 for football.
Shortly after, they'd add Miami and Virginia Tech...which would give them a solid 9 in football (8 conference games) and 16 for all-sports.

At that point, the conference would have been viable for the next decade, easily. If the bball/football imbalance became unwieldy, the football teams could have easily broken off...adding Florida State as #10 for football seems like a no-brainer.

No, I don't think Penn State would have left in 1993 for the Big Ten with a decade of success in the Big East.

When the "expansion" war came to a head in the early 2000s, the ACC would not have been able to poach from the Big East.

North
PSU
Syracuse
BC
Rutgers
Temple

South
Miami
VaTech
WVU
Pitt
FSU

The ACC's 8 teams would have Clemson as their football heavyweight...and not much else. If the ACC could survive being poached in the early 2000s themselves, they probably would have been devoured in 2011 by the Big Ten, Big East, and SEC.

(09-27-2018 05:09 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(09-25-2018 06:27 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  If Rutgers accepted the Big East invite when first offered, then Seton Hall doesn't get offered and Seton Hall's no vote becomes a Rutgers yes vote.

seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

it was Georgetown

(09-23-2018 04:08 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(09-23-2018 02:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  We've discussed Penn St and the Big East/Eastern All Sports League on here before.

I'm inclined to say that if Penn St gets an invite then that conference would still be playing and Penn St could very well still be in it, especially if the Hurricanes and Nittany Lions come to enjoy being top dogs in their own league.

If Penn St is in a viable Eastern-based football conference in the early 90s and they are the dominant program I'm not sure the Big Ten has the same appeal.

In 2004-2005 the ACC's ability to raid the Big East is highly questionable. VT would be the only school who would really see moving as advantageous.

In 2010-2012 I think it all depends on how convincing the Big Ten can be with their argument. If they can offer Penn St and some choice companions piles and piles of cash then maybe the break occurs. The ACC Then gets the pick of what's left.

If instead it's Penn St that remains steadfast, then the alternative scenario is that the Big Ten goes after a handful of old Big 8 programs, the SEC claims the best Texas schools, and the SEC and Big East potential pilfer an ACC that still has just 9 members.

I think the key would have been Florida State - had Florida State joined the Big East instead of the ACC, the pendulum will have swung the other way.

The Big Ten would have taken Nebraska and Missouri.

Assuming no one in the ACC is available, I could see the SEC taking Texas A&M and TCU. If the ACC is in play, I think North Carolina and Virginia are their first picks.

Big East
North - Boston College, UConn, Rutgers, Syracuse, Penn State, Pittsburgh
South - Miami (FL), Florida State, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, ???, ???
Non-football - Villanova, Georgetown, St. John’s, Seton Hall, Notre Dame, Marquette, DePaul, Providence

If the Big East went to 12 in football with North Carolina and Duke, it’s possible the entire 20-Team behemoth stays together. If UNC isn’t available I could see Clemson and Maryland here as well.

What’s left of the Big 12 likely takes in SMU if they lose TCU.

The ACC would depend on who was left, but I think it shakes out like this:

Louisville (replaced Miami)
Cincinnati (replaced Florida State)
South Florida (replaced Boston College)
Central Florida (replaced Virginia Tech)
Georgia Tech
Clemson
North Carolina
North Carolina State
Duke
Wake Forest
Virginia
Maryland

I think the bench for the ACC would run Temple, Memphis (if not in the Big 12), East Carolina (only if UNC leaves), and UMass. It’s quite possible the Big 12 could have added Louisville, Cincinnati, and Clemson or Georgia Tech

I don't think a Big 10 raid on the Big 12 occurs without PSU in the Big 10. I strongly suspect Delaney was really talking about potentially getting Big East schools like Pitt, Syracuse or Rutgers when he first talked about Big 10 expansion on 12/15/2009. I think Delaney never really considered the idea of a Big 12 team joining until the Missouri governor made comments about Big 10 vs Big 12 academics a few days later. Nebraska only joined the Big 10 because they were concerned about a Missouri exit destabilizing the Big 12.

Delaney probably never would have announced he was considering expansion in December 09 if PSU were in an Eastern conference, because then the Eastern conference would have been much harder to raid. Without that announcement, Big 12 teams never express interest in the Big 10.

(09-28-2018 04:14 PM)micahandme Wrote:  1979--Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, and Syracuse invited Seton Hall, Connecticut (UConn), Holy Cross, Rutgers, Pitt, Villanova, and Boston College
1982--Penn State becomes #12 for all-sports.
Shortly after, they'd add Temple and WVU, to make 14 all-sports and 7 for football.
Shortly after, they'd add Miami and Virginia Tech...which would give them a solid 9 in football (8 conference games) and 16 for all-sports.

At that point, the conference would have been viable for the next decade, easily. If the bball/football imbalance became unwieldy, the football teams could have easily broken off...adding Florida State as #10 for football seems like a no-brainer.

No, I don't think Penn State would have left in 1993 for the Big Ten with a decade of success in the Big East.

When the "expansion" war came to a head in the early 2000s, the ACC would not have been able to poach from the Big East.

North
PSU
Syracuse
BC
Rutgers
Temple

South
Miami
VaTech
WVU
Pitt
FSU

The ACC's 8 teams would have Clemson as their football heavyweight...and not much else. If the ACC could survive being poached in the early 2000s themselves, they probably would have been devoured in 2011 by the Big Ten, Big East, and SEC.

Bingo... the ACC would have had ZERO leverage to poach from the Big East had it been a stable, football-centric conference led by Penn State, a happy Miami and Va Tech, and Florida State. If anything, it might have gone the opposite way, with the BE trying to poach schools like Clemson, Maryland, Georgia Tech given that the ACC would have been by far the weakest major football conference in Division 1-A. With FSU and Miami in the BE, Clemson and GT probably take the offer. Alongside an addition of Louisville, you probably see BE football as:

North
PSU
Syracuse
BC
Rutgers
Temple
UConn
Pitt

South
WVU
Miami
Louisville
VaTech
FSU
Clemson
GTech

(09-27-2018 06:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 05:09 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(09-25-2018 06:27 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  If Rutgers accepted the Big East invite when first offered, then Seton Hall doesn't get offered and Seton Hall's no vote becomes a Rutgers yes vote.

seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

I'm pretty sure it was Georgetown.

With that being said, if BC and Cuse would have realized how important having a football conference was they could have threatened to leave, forcing a revote that would have been favorable to Penn St.

Truth be told, in 1982 the should have just blown up the Big East and the Eastern 8 and started from scratch.

I think there was some antagonism already there between BC/Cuse and Penn St.

That's an interesting what if.

If BC and Cuse had said bump this and left the Big East, taking the lead on forming an eastern centric football conference with basketball as a priority what would it have looked like.

I think BC and Cuse woud have invited the Big East Schools that voted yes - UConn, Providence, and let's say Seton Hall. Then they would have gotten Rutgers, Pitt, Temple, and WVU IF Penn State was on board. Let's assume they would have finally worked out the revenue sharing differences and Penn St was a yes. You have:
Penn St
Pitt
Temple
WVU
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC
Seton Hall*
UConn*
Providence*

This 10 team conference with 7 football playing members would have been perfect for the 1980's requirements and would have been a solid Bball league and well. I suspect that St John's and Georgetown would have been invited too after learning the error of their ways, while Villanova feels the other side of the Philly blackball

(09-30-2018 08:36 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 06:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 05:09 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(09-25-2018 06:27 PM)RutgersMike Wrote:  If Rutgers accepted the Big East invite when first offered, then Seton Hall doesn't get offered and Seton Hall's no vote becomes a Rutgers yes vote.

seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

I'm pretty sure it was Georgetown.

With that being said, if BC and Cuse would have realized how important having a football conference was they could have threatened to leave, forcing a revote that would have been favorable to Penn St.

Truth be told, in 1982 the should have just blown up the Big East and the Eastern 8 and started from scratch.

I think there was some antagonism already there between BC/Cuse and Penn St.

That's an interesting what if.

If BC and Cuse had said bump this and left the Big East, taking the lead on forming an eastern centric football conference with basketball as a priority what would it have looked like.

I think BC and Cuse woud have invited the Big East Schools that voted yes - UConn, Providence, and let's say Seton Hall. Then they would have gotten Rutgers, Pitt, Temple, and WVU IF Penn State was on board. Let's assume they would have finally worked out the revenue sharing differences and Penn St was a yes. You have:
Penn St
Pitt
Temple
WVU
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC
Seton Hall*
UConn*
Providence*

This 10 team conference with 7 football playing members would have been perfect for the 1980's requirements and would have been a solid Bball league and well. I suspect that St John's and Georgetown would have been invited too after learning the error of their ways, while Villanova feels the other side of the Philly blackball

I like your line of speculation, and I think you are right in that Georgetown and St John's would eventually get to join the league if Penn St was willing to look past their prior transgressions.

I think this group eventually tries recruiting Miami, VT, FSU etc.

(09-30-2018 01:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-30-2018 08:36 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 06:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 05:09 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

I'm pretty sure it was Georgetown.

With that being said, if BC and Cuse would have realized how important having a football conference was they could have threatened to leave, forcing a revote that would have been favorable to Penn St.

Truth be told, in 1982 the should have just blown up the Big East and the Eastern 8 and started from scratch.

I think there was some antagonism already there between BC/Cuse and Penn St.

That's an interesting what if.

If BC and Cuse had said bump this and left the Big East, taking the lead on forming an eastern centric football conference with basketball as a priority what would it have looked like.

I think BC and Cuse woud have invited the Big East Schools that voted yes - UConn, Providence, and let's say Seton Hall. Then they would have gotten Rutgers, Pitt, Temple, and WVU IF Penn State was on board. Let's assume they would have finally worked out the revenue sharing differences and Penn St was a yes. You have:
Penn St
Pitt
Temple
WVU
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC
Seton Hall*
UConn*
Providence*

This 10 team conference with 7 football playing members would have been perfect for the 1980's requirements and would have been a solid Bball league and well. I suspect that St John's and Georgetown would have been invited too after learning the error of their ways, while Villanova feels the other side of the Philly blackball

I like your line of speculation, and I think you are right in that Georgetown and St John's would eventually get to join the league if Penn St was willing to look past their prior transgressions.

I think this group eventually tries recruiting Miami, VT, FSU etc.

With the ACC being skeptical about expansion. I could definitely see this league blossoming to 14 with a compromise of St Johns and Georgetown being added for basketball and Va Tech and Miami for all sports. That would give this Eastern Conference 9 for all sports with 5 non football members, a perfect blend in the mid 90s and a healthy balance allowing for football to be top priority with a healthy respect for basketball.

From this point this league has a variety of options to get to 16 which depend on their desire to increase the number of non football members or football only members and if UConn adds FBS football in this scenario.

(09-30-2018 01:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-30-2018 08:36 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 06:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 05:09 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 04:23 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  seton hall didn't vote no

St. John's and Villanova voted no. It's not clear who the 3rd no vote was, although it's often rumored to be Seton Hall.

I'm pretty sure it was Georgetown.

With that being said, if BC and Cuse would have realized how important having a football conference was they could have threatened to leave, forcing a revote that would have been favorable to Penn St.

Truth be told, in 1982 the should have just blown up the Big East and the Eastern 8 and started from scratch.

I think there was some antagonism already there between BC/Cuse and Penn St.

That's an interesting what if.

If BC and Cuse had said bump this and left the Big East, taking the lead on forming an eastern centric football conference with basketball as a priority what would it have looked like.

I think BC and Cuse woud have invited the Big East Schools that voted yes - UConn, Providence, and let's say Seton Hall. Then they would have gotten Rutgers, Pitt, Temple, and WVU IF Penn State was on board. Let's assume they would have finally worked out the revenue sharing differences and Penn St was a yes. You have:
Penn St
Pitt
Temple
WVU
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC
Seton Hall*
UConn*
Providence*

This 10 team conference with 7 football playing members would have been perfect for the 1980's requirements and would have been a solid Bball league and well. I suspect that St John's and Georgetown would have been invited too after learning the error of their ways, while Villanova feels the other side of the Philly blackball

I like your line of speculation, and I think you are right in that Georgetown and St John's would eventually get to join the league if Penn St was willing to look past their prior transgressions.

I think this group eventually tries recruiting Miami, VT, FSU etc.

Fighting and Solo,
You're assigning way way way too much influence towards Penn State. And way too little understanding of how little the northeast basketball schools ever gave a sh-t about them, then or now. No way would Georgetown or St John's bend a knee to Paterno for the privilege of getting sh-t on by the guy.

Yes, Tranghese said the thing about "rue-ing the day PSU was voted down", but Tranghese (while a good guy) has always been a sad-sack dark-cloud overly-dramatic guy. The PSU down-vote was met by fans back in 1981 or so with indifference or relief.

In the group of 7 schools in your hypothetical football conference, Syracuse is the only team that the northeast hoops schools care about. And Providence, Seton Hall, and UConn aren't joining that PSU-7 group, and trading away Georgetown, Villanova and St John's, just to keep together with Syracuse.

What would've been the motivation for Providence or UConn or Georgetown for example to join a PSU dominated league back then with flights into Happy Valley and Morgantown?

Here's the PSU-7 you proposed for 1979, with nothing located in NYC or DC, and very little or no history with the Big East group:
- Penn St
- Pitt
- Temple
- WVU
- Rutgers
- Syracuse
- BC

Here's the Big East in 1979 without SU and BC:
- Georgetown.
- St John's.
- Villanova.
- Providence.
- UConn.
- Seton Hall.
then:
- St Bonaventure (trade a great program in Syracuse for a good 1970's Bonnies program, get Buffalo market).
- add one of the Boston or Mass schools (trade a program at BC with zero Final Fours and crappy attendance) for another nearby school with similar attendance but good potential... Boston U with Pitino, Northeastern with Jim Calhoun, Holy Cross with a ranked late-70's program and good attendance, or UMass as a 4th option.

- or go balls-out ground-breaking and try to convince Notre Dame, Marquette, DePaul and Dayton to join, and get to 10:

This could've happened (that PSU-7 clump of teams would not have happened):
Big East 10 for 1979:
Georgetown
St John's
Villanova
Providence
Seton Hall
UConn
Marquette
DePaul
Notre Dame
Dayton or a Boston school.