(10-02-2018 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:31 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 07:07 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I guess every single conservative who hopped on the “abolish the IRS” train a few years ago was actually arguing for abolishing all federal taxation.

Actually, many might. Duh.....

Thanks for making the cogent point against yourself.

I must have missed that train. Who was driving it - what candidate(s) ran on that platform?

We will always need tax collection enforcement. Even pure hearted liberals will dodge their taxes if they think they can get away with it. But various forms of tax reform can minimize or even eliminate the presence of the IRS in the lives of our citizens.

Rand Paul: http://abolishnow.com/

Ted Cruz: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ted-c...ng-the-irs

The Republican Study Committee: http://fortune.com/2016/05/02/congressio...h-the-irs/

Just like with Abolish ICE, if you dig past the sentence, the majority of the Reps calling for the abolishment of the IRS is because they want to simplify the federal tax code and a part of that would be abolishing the IRS (generally stated because it wouldn't be useful anymore).

So the Democrats have a plan in which ICE would not be useful anymore? What are the details and who are the advocates? The only one I have heard is no more deportations, no stopping people at the border.

I favor the Fair Tax, eliminating personal income taxes and replacing them with a national consumption tax. Under my plan, the IRS would be repurposed to auditing and enforcing the collectors of the consumption tax, exactly the same as is done now by the State Comptrollers office in collecting sales taxes.

But I NEVER, never, never called for the abolishment of the IRS.

I just sent you three links that propose abolishing the IRS...

My whole point is you can take a simple slogan at face value (Abolish the IRS or ICE) and think it sounds absurd. Or you can talk to the non-fringe politicians proposing it and realize that there is more to the plan.

(10-02-2018 09:49 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:43 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  He is trying to make the 'weaponization of the IRS' phrase into an example for that hill he wont climb down from for the 'Abolish ICE' issue.

Lol. You don't actually know this policy position well.

The call has primarily been correlated to a streamlining of the tax code, rendering the IRS mostly pointless.

Whatever dude. You are certainly beating the 'Abolish ICE' *doesnt* mean 'open borders' drum pretty frenetically this morning.

Look Lad, when the article *you* cite presents itself as such when you pull away the thumbnail deep veneer that you choose not to, it seems kind of Trumpish to claim that a major driving force behind the slogan isnt the open-borders crowd.

Your choice on what ill-thought out hill you want to die on I guess.

So tell me just for ***** and giggles. *What* simplification of the immigration policy would make ICE redundant or non-useful or superfluous? One comes immediately to mind. It correlates with all the other 'fun' policies set upon by the left that *are* explicitly anti-enforcement of immigration laws. Funny that.

(10-02-2018 10:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:49 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:43 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  He is trying to make the 'weaponization of the IRS' phrase into an example for that hill he wont climb down from for the 'Abolish ICE' issue.

Lol. You don't actually know this policy position well.

The call has primarily been correlated to a streamlining of the tax code, rendering the IRS mostly pointless.

Whatever dude. You are certainly beating the 'Abolish ICE' *doesnt* mean 'open borders' drum pretty frenetically this morning.

Look Lad, when the article *you* cite presents itself as such when you pull away the thumbnail deep veneer that you choose not to, it seems kind of Trumpish to claim that a major driving force behind the slogan isnt the open-borders crowd.

Your choice on what ill-thought out hill you want to die on I guess.

So tell me just for ***** and giggles. *What* simplification of the immigration policy would make ICE redundant or non-useful or superfluous? One comes immediately to mind. It correlates with all the other 'fun' policies set upon by the left that *are* explicitly anti-enforcement of immigration laws. Funny that.

I'm advocating that "Abolish ICE" isn't as simple as abolishing ICE. That the non-fringe actors have actual policy behind the slogan and that there is more involved than just abolishing the agency.

You may view some of those changes as resulting in "open borders," and that's your prerogative.

(10-02-2018 10:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:31 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Actually, many might. Duh.....

Thanks for making the cogent point against yourself.

I must have missed that train. Who was driving it - what candidate(s) ran on that platform?

We will always need tax collection enforcement. Even pure hearted liberals will dodge their taxes if they think they can get away with it. But various forms of tax reform can minimize or even eliminate the presence of the IRS in the lives of our citizens.

Rand Paul: http://abolishnow.com/

Ted Cruz: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ted-c...ng-the-irs

The Republican Study Committee: http://fortune.com/2016/05/02/congressio...h-the-irs/

Just like with Abolish ICE, if you dig past the sentence, the majority of the Reps calling for the abolishment of the IRS is because they want to simplify the federal tax code and a part of that would be abolishing the IRS (generally stated because it wouldn't be useful anymore).

So the Democrats have a plan in which ICE would not be useful anymore? What are the details and who are the advocates? The only one I have heard is no more deportations, no stopping people at the border.

I favor the Fair Tax, eliminating personal income taxes and replacing them with a national consumption tax. Under my plan, the IRS would be repurposed to auditing and enforcing the collectors of the consumption tax, exactly the same as is done now by the State Comptrollers office in collecting sales taxes.

But I NEVER, never, never called for the abolishment of the IRS.

I just sent you three links that propose abolishing the IRS...

My whole point is you can take a simple slogan at face value (Abolish the IRS or ICE) and think it sounds absurd. Or you can talk to the non-fringe politicians proposing it and realize that there is more to the plan.

and you said those would mainly be because IRS was useless after reform. do the Democrats have a plan that will make Immigration and Customs Enforcement obsolete? if not, the Abolish ICe just means Abolish Ice, just like Ocasio-cortez originally meant.

(10-02-2018 10:38 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 10:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:49 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 09:43 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  He is trying to make the 'weaponization of the IRS' phrase into an example for that hill he wont climb down from for the 'Abolish ICE' issue.

Lol. You don't actually know this policy position well.

The call has primarily been correlated to a streamlining of the tax code, rendering the IRS mostly pointless.

Whatever dude. You are certainly beating the 'Abolish ICE' *doesnt* mean 'open borders' drum pretty frenetically this morning.

Look Lad, when the article *you* cite presents itself as such when you pull away the thumbnail deep veneer that you choose not to, it seems kind of Trumpish to claim that a major driving force behind the slogan isnt the open-borders crowd.

Your choice on what ill-thought out hill you want to die on I guess.

So tell me just for ***** and giggles. *What* simplification of the immigration policy would make ICE redundant or non-useful or superfluous? One comes immediately to mind. It correlates with all the other 'fun' policies set upon by the left that *are* explicitly anti-enforcement of immigration laws. Funny that.

I'm advocating that "Abolish ICE" isn't as simple as abolishing ICE. That the non-fringe actors have actual policy behind the slogan and that there is more involved than just abolishing the agency.

You may view some of those changes as resulting in "open borders," and that's your prerogative.

When the rallying cry and statement (and purpose, mind you) is specifically and unequivocally 'less enforcement'.... do tell what else one should think? Or is it too 'nuanced' for a scumbag like me?

As an aside, that is going to be my rallying cry when I drink bourbon --- 'Abolish ice, damnit!'

Simplifying the tax code such that tens of thousands of employees are no longer needed to enforce all the various nooks and crannies is not a "fringe" idea. I would imagine support for that idea is quite broad. (Certainly there would remain the fundamental left-right disagreement over the level of taxation that should obtain after any such simplification.)

Shutting down all federal taxation would certainly be a fringe idea, but there are no actual officeholders or serious candidates advocating same.

"Creating a world in which there are no more deportations," which is the stated goal of the Abolish ICE movement, is also a fringe idea -- Lad's even acknowledged it as such -- but the Dems do have some actual politicians advancing that idea. That's been my point: Republicans do a better job of keeping fringe ideas confined to the fringe.

And the Dems also have plenty more serious politicians hemming, hawing, obfuscating, and dodging the question about what "Abolish ICE" "Restructure and Reorganize ICE" really means. If it means let's "simplify" immigration law to the point that it's basically impossible to either violate it or get caught violating it or face removal as a sanction for violating it, then that is simply advocating for open borders (a fringe idea) through the back door rather than the front.

I bet Brett Kavanaugh may want to abolish ice at this point.

(10-02-2018 02:59 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I bet Brett Kavanaugh may want to abolish ice at this point.

Probably breaking some UB40 cds as well.

(10-02-2018 01:35 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Simplifying the tax code such that tens of thousands of employees are no longer needed to enforce all the various nooks and crannies is not a "fringe" idea. I would imagine support for that idea is quite broad. (Certainly there would remain the fundamental left-right disagreement over the level of taxation that should obtain after any such simplification.)

Shutting down all federal taxation would certainly be a fringe idea, but there are no actual officeholders or serious candidates advocating same.

"Creating a world in which there are no more deportations," which is the stated goal of the Abolish ICE movement, is also a fringe idea -- Lad's even acknowledged it as such -- but the Dems do have some actual politicians advancing that idea. That's been my point: Republicans do a better job of keeping fringe ideas confined to the fringe.

And the Dems also have plenty more serious politicians hemming, hawing, obfuscating, and dodging the question about what "Abolish ICE" "Restructure and Reorganize ICE" really means. If it means let's "simplify" immigration law to the point that it's basically impossible to either violate it or get caught violating it or face removal as a sanction for violating it, then that is simply advocating for open borders (a fringe idea) through the back door rather than the front.

At some point, electing a reality TV star to be president was a fringe idea, and yet, here we are.

Much like at some point, electing an ex-Secretary of State who cobbled together a private email server to route her yoga schedule, daughter's wedding plans, and a fair enough amount of eyes only secret transmissions to was only an idea that a reality TV producer would come up, yet half the country voted for that person.

Potayto, potahto.

(10-02-2018 08:51 PM)OldOwlNewHeel2 Wrote:  

(10-02-2018 01:35 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Simplifying the tax code such that tens of thousands of employees are no longer needed to enforce all the various nooks and crannies is not a "fringe" idea. I would imagine support for that idea is quite broad. (Certainly there would remain the fundamental left-right disagreement over the level of taxation that should obtain after any such simplification.)

Shutting down all federal taxation would certainly be a fringe idea, but there are no actual officeholders or serious candidates advocating same.

"Creating a world in which there are no more deportations," which is the stated goal of the Abolish ICE movement, is also a fringe idea -- Lad's even acknowledged it as such -- but the Dems do have some actual politicians advancing that idea. That's been my point: Republicans do a better job of keeping fringe ideas confined to the fringe.

And the Dems also have plenty more serious politicians hemming, hawing, obfuscating, and dodging the question about what "Abolish ICE" "Restructure and Reorganize ICE" really means. If it means let's "simplify" immigration law to the point that it's basically impossible to either violate it or get caught violating it or face removal as a sanction for violating it, then that is simply advocating for open borders (a fringe idea) through the back door rather than the front.

At some point, electing a reality TV star to be president was a fringe idea, and yet, here we are.

How about electing an international businessman? It's not like we elected Jeff Probst. More akin to electing Ross Perot or George Washington than to electing the The Rent Is Too Damn High guy.

(10-02-2018 09:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Just like with Abolish ICE, if you dig past the sentence, the majority of the Reps calling for the abolishment of the IRS is because they want to simplify the federal tax code and a part of that would be abolishing the IRS (generally stated because it wouldn't be useful anymore).

You just demonstrated the difference

If you read past the headline, you see that the IRS would be redundant in the collection of taxes... but taxes would still be collected.

Most of those suggesting that we abolish ICE aren't suggesting that the deportation of people here illegally can be handled by another agency rendering ICE redundant... they're seeking to end the actions that ICE engages in and not replace them.

I've yet to meet one person who wants to abolish ICE who still wants people here illegally to be deported... some of them wouldn't even deport people here illegally, convicted of heinous crimes while here. That may or may not be the majority... but it's not a small percentage.

Are you aware of a 'Sanctuary City' that defies the IRS? I can show you all sorts of cities that defy ICE.

so your comparison is like comparing a peanut to a lug nut and saying they are both nuts.

Quote:A mass shooting at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday has left an astonishing total of 49 people dead, according to The Associated Press. The shooting was carried out by at least one gunman who posted on online “manifesto” stating white supremacist viewpoints and naming prominent Donald Trump supporter and right-wing American media personality Candace Owens as the person who most inspired him to commit acts of violence.

He also praised Trump himself “as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose.”

https://www.inquisitr.com/5343540/new-ze...manifesto/

I abhor racism of any kind, white on black, black on white, green on purple, whatever. It's the same thing. But I do seem to find the title of this thread more than a little bit racist in its apparent presumption. These days it seems the Left is working very hard to publicly corner the market on racism and racist behavior. It seems that is helping to incite some far-on-the-fringe people who seem to identify with the right though their views are not shared by the vast majority of freedom-loving conservative Americans who just want to get along and be left alone by the government to go about their business and their lives.

The media and the majority of the leadership on the left, Democrats and Progressives and whatnot, seem to have a much more vested interest in stoking racism instead of helping to promote a culture of getting along in freedom and solidarity. Apparently, it is the only way they feel they can hold any power. their policies by themselves, never stand up to reality or the test of time. So they throw in racism, while themselves exhibiting more of the same behavior they pretend to be against. Pathetic, and most Americans of all backgrounds can see clearly through the Democrat's fallacies. They have less than zero in common with the party of JFK.

(03-15-2019 12:33 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:A mass shooting at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday has left an astonishing total of 49 people dead, according to The Associated Press. The shooting was carried out by at least one gunman who posted on online “manifesto” stating white supremacist viewpoints and naming prominent Donald Trump supporter and right-wing American media personality Candace Owens as the person who most inspired him to commit acts of violence.

He also praised Trump himself “as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose.”

https://www.inquisitr.com/5343540/new-ze...manifesto/

Sounds to me like this guy bought into the false image of Trump presented by the left.

(03-15-2019 01:18 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  I abhor racism of any kind, white on black, black on white, green on purple, whatever. It's the same thing. But I do seem to find the title of this thread more than a little bit racist in its apparent presumption. These days it seems the Left is working very hard to publicly corner the market on racism and racist behavior. It seems that is helping to incite some far-on-the-fringe people who seem to identify with the right though their views are not shared by the vast majority of freedom-loving conservative Americans who just want to get along and be left alone by the government to go about their business and their lives.

The media and the majority of the leadership on the left, Democrats and Progressives and whatnot, seem to have a much more vested interest in stoking racism instead of helping to promote a culture of getting along in freedom and solidarity. Apparently, it is the only way they feel they can hold any power. their policies by themselves, never stand up to reality or the test of time. So they throw in racism, while themselves exhibiting more of the same behavior they pretend to be against. Pathetic, and most Americans of all backgrounds can see clearly through the Democrat's fallacies. They have less than zero in common with the party of JFK.

Well said.

(03-15-2019 02:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 12:33 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:A mass shooting at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday has left an astonishing total of 49 people dead, according to The Associated Press. The shooting was carried out by at least one gunman who posted on online “manifesto” stating white supremacist viewpoints and naming prominent Donald Trump supporter and right-wing American media personality Candace Owens as the person who most inspired him to commit acts of violence.

He also praised Trump himself “as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose.”

https://www.inquisitr.com/5343540/new-ze...manifesto/

Sounds to me like this guy bought into the false image of Trump presented by the left.

That's certainly an interesting way to spin it.

(03-15-2019 03:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 02:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 12:33 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:A mass shooting at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday has left an astonishing total of 49 people dead, according to The Associated Press. The shooting was carried out by at least one gunman who posted on online “manifesto” stating white supremacist viewpoints and naming prominent Donald Trump supporter and right-wing American media personality Candace Owens as the person who most inspired him to commit acts of violence.

He also praised Trump himself “as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose.”

https://www.inquisitr.com/5343540/new-ze...manifesto/

Sounds to me like this guy bought into the false image of Trump presented by the left.

That's certainly an interesting way to spin it.

Sounds like he's not the only one who buys it.

So tell me about the evidence for Trump as a white supremacist. Bonus points for doing it without quoting a left wing blog.

(03-15-2019 03:54 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 03:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 02:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 12:33 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:A mass shooting at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday has left an astonishing total of 49 people dead, according to The Associated Press. The shooting was carried out by at least one gunman who posted on online “manifesto” stating white supremacist viewpoints and naming prominent Donald Trump supporter and right-wing American media personality Candace Owens as the person who most inspired him to commit acts of violence.

He also praised Trump himself “as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose.”

https://www.inquisitr.com/5343540/new-ze...manifesto/

Sounds to me like this guy bought into the false image of Trump presented by the left.

That's certainly an interesting way to spin it.

Sounds like he's not the only one who buys it.

So tell me about the evidence for Trump as a white supremacist. Bonus points for doing it without quoting a left wing blog.

There is evidence that the language Trump uses and statements he makes inspire white supremacists and racists. He could change that if he wanted to.