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(09-20-2018 12:44 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 12:11 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Anyone who thinks kneeling during the anthem is protesting "the flag" is just a fool.

And if you think the kneeling is actually helping the worthy cause of those who are doing the kneeling, you are just as much a fool.

Using America's National Anthem as a form of protest, distorts and takes attention away from your cause. People do not see beyond the vehicle being used to protest, for better or worse.

The NFL got itself into a pickle when it did not address this immediately and let it fester (there is no freedom of speech in the workplace, during work hours). Trump's buffoonish involvement took-it-up a notch and turned it into a political issue where the anthem (vehicle) is the issue, not the cause. Problem is...nothing is being done to address the worthy cause because so much attention is being given to the vehicle.

Such a stupid waste of time, energy and emotion.

Stand for the anthem and WORK legitimately (stop posing) for the cause. It is always harder to bring people together than it is to push them apart. We r-e-a-l-l-y need to find ways to unify as a nation/society.

You aren't the one who gets to decide its cause.

Colin Kaepernick has donated over $1 million to these causes. So have other athletes.

Tell Freddie Gray, Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner and the dozens of other high profile cases in the past several months that this is all a stupid waste of time, energy, and emotion.

That's privilege.

You want to unify? Listen and be willing to understand their cause. Too many people like yourself want to make it about something that it is not. How can we unify if one side is completely unwilling to listen?

(09-20-2018 02:56 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 12:11 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Anyone who thinks kneeling during the anthem is protesting "the flag" is just a fool.

It isnt protesting the flag; it is outwardly disrespecting the symbol of American liberty, and those who we recognize and honor by standing at attention during the anthem, including those who risked their lives by declaring independence against a power who was limiting freedom, and all those who have defended the same principles thereafter, either by serving in the military or otherwise.

To suggest that this is a "good" way to protest is suggesting that the flag or the anthem are insignificant, or unworthy of being held in the high regard that, at least in my mind, they should be. Some things are sacred.

I would argue that they don't feel the power structures are living up to the ideals posited by the flag and anthem. This is their best - most visible - option.

Have you ever engaged one of the protesters? Asked them what they are doing and why?

You must know that Kaepernick chose to kneel (as opposed to sit) at the recommendation of a veteran. That kneeling shows reverence and isn't meant to disrespect.

It wasn't until FoxNews and Trump decided to make this an issue of patriotism that this became 'offensive'.

I won't defend some of Kaepernick's other choices (socks, statements about police), but have absolutely no problem with this form of protest. It hurts NOBODY.

(09-20-2018 03:06 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 02:56 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 12:11 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Anyone who thinks kneeling during the anthem is protesting "the flag" is just a fool.

It isnt protesting the flag; it is outwardly disrespecting the symbol of American liberty, and those who we recognize and honor by standing at attention during the anthem, including those who risked their lives by declaring independence against a power who was limiting freedom, and all those who have defended the same principles thereafter, either by serving in the military or otherwise.

To suggest that this is a "good" way to protest is suggesting that the flag or the anthem are insignificant, or unworthy of being held in the high regard that, at least in my mind, they should be. Some things are sacred.

I would argue that they don't feel the power structures are living up to the ideals posited by the flag and anthem. This is their best - most visible - option.

Have you ever engaged one of the protesters? Asked them what they are doing and why?

You must know that Kaepernick chose to kneel (as opposed to sit) at the recommendation of a veteran. That kneeling shows reverence and isn't meant to disrespect.

It wasn't until FoxNews and Trump decided to make this an issue of patriotism that this became 'offensive'.

I won't defend some of Kaepernick's other choices (socks, statements about police), but have absolutely no problem with this form of protest. It hurts NOBODY.

The problem is the significant distraction it has become to the cause. You highlighted it perfectly when you said people think he is protesting the flag or the anthem. Foolish, yes, but using the anthem as a means of protest is foolish as well because it distracts and divides. People do not realize, understand, or even care what you are attempting to achieve. They can't/won't see beyond the vehicle of protest.

And the issue was aflame well before Trump got involved, but it would have burned-out on its own within a matter of weeks/months. Moron that Trump is, he threw gasoline on it and made it more divisive than it should have been and gave it more attention then it merited.

Kapernick signed a big bucks deal with NIKE, who use sweat shops all over east asia so they don't have to pay the workers much. 20 cents/hour in Vietnam, that won't even buy you a days meals after their 10 hour days. Kappy is an avowed SOCIALIST though, he told us so. He couldn't lie straight in bed.

Somebody ought to toss a road flare into his oversize afro and videotape it the next time he feels the need to spout off, there is nothing that a-hole needs to say that I need to hear-but I'd LOVE seeing him run around looking for a toilet to put his flaming head into. And those of you who feel he's some kind of hero, you have pretty low expectations for your heroes.

(09-20-2018 03:06 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 02:56 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 12:11 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Anyone who thinks kneeling during the anthem is protesting "the flag" is just a fool.

It isnt protesting the flag; it is outwardly disrespecting the symbol of American liberty, and those who we recognize and honor by standing at attention during the anthem, including those who risked their lives by declaring independence against a power who was limiting freedom, and all those who have defended the same principles thereafter, either by serving in the military or otherwise.

To suggest that this is a "good" way to protest is suggesting that the flag or the anthem are insignificant, or unworthy of being held in the high regard that, at least in my mind, they should be. Some things are sacred.

I would argue that they don't feel the power structures are living up to the ideals posited by the flag and anthem. This is their best - most visible - option.

Have you ever engaged one of the protesters? Asked them what they are doing and why?

You must know that Kaepernick chose to kneel (as opposed to sit) at the recommendation of a veteran. That kneeling shows reverence and isn't meant to disrespect.

It wasn't until Fox News and Trump decided to make this an issue of patriotism that this became 'offensive'.

I won't defend some of Kaepernick's other choices (socks, statements about police), but have absolutely no problem with this form of protest. It hurts NOBODY.

I guess we have it all wrong. When its announced, "please stand for the singing of the National Anthem", we should instead kneel. Got it!

(09-20-2018 04:46 PM)WMUslappy1 Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 03:06 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 02:56 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(09-20-2018 12:11 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Anyone who thinks kneeling during the anthem is protesting "the flag" is just a fool.

It isnt protesting the flag; it is outwardly disrespecting the symbol of American liberty, and those who we recognize and honor by standing at attention during the anthem, including those who risked their lives by declaring independence against a power who was limiting freedom, and all those who have defended the same principles thereafter, either by serving in the military or otherwise.

To suggest that this is a "good" way to protest is suggesting that the flag or the anthem are insignificant, or unworthy of being held in the high regard that, at least in my mind, they should be. Some things are sacred.

I would argue that they don't feel the power structures are living up to the ideals posited by the flag and anthem. This is their best - most visible - option.

Have you ever engaged one of the protesters? Asked them what they are doing and why?

You must know that Kaepernick chose to kneel (as opposed to sit) at the recommendation of a veteran. That kneeling shows reverence and isn't meant to disrespect.

It wasn't until Fox News and Trump decided to make this an issue of patriotism that this became 'offensive'.

I won't defend some of Kaepernick's other choices (socks, statements about police), but have absolutely no problem with this form of protest. It hurts NOBODY.

I guess we have it all wrong. When its announced, "please stand for the singing of the National Anthem", we should instead kneel. Got it!

What gets lost in this... is that players weren’t even required to be on the sidelines for the anthem until 2009 when a defense department initiative paid the NFL to make players be present in some sort of effort to force a patriotic view. Before that players weren’t even on the sidelines for the anthem... which if I’m the NFL I just go back to that! Can’t cause an issue either way If they aren’t even on the field!

Actually, 20 cents an hour is from the mid-90s, spout out as the current amount. Don't trust what politicians tweet at their word; look stuff up to ensure/modify their claims. They're paid more. That said, there's that thing called inflation, too. They make between $0.61-$0.89/hr a couple years ago, based on working 48 hours a week (working 6 days a week not 5 @8hrs, apparently).

Mostly women work there @Nike, so I think it's one of the "female" or "lesser" jobs for even out there for supporting $$. Still, Nike should give more to the plant to say they'll play them $1.25 an hour to ensure it's a decent 'female' job. That'd be $260/mo -- which does carry you far in Vietnam compared to here. Not to support a family, but, neither would be working at a car lot, which is why I think chicks mainly work there.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nike-w...aepernick/

(09-20-2018 09:30 PM)toddjnsn Wrote:  Actually, 20 cents an hour is from the mid-90s, spout out as the current amount. Don't trust what politicians tweet at their word; look stuff up to ensure/modify their claims. They're paid more. That said, there's that thing called inflation, too. They make between $0.61-$0.89/hr a couple years ago, based on working 48 hours a week (working 6 days a week not 5 @8hrs, apparently).

Mostly women work there @Nike, so I think it's one of the "female" or "lesser" jobs for even out there for supporting $$. Still, Nike should give more to the plant to say they'll play them $1.25 an hour to ensure it's a decent 'female' job. That'd be $260/mo -- which does carry you far in Vietnam compared to here. Not to support a family, but, neither would be working at a car lot, which is why I think chicks mainly work there.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nike-w...aepernick/

Split hairs if you want to, the point being Kap-the self anointed 'socialist' is making heap big bling while sweat shop workers are making insufficient-for-living-wages. He's a phony and nothing but a phony, but he impresses Libtards because they're all phonies as well. And don't wave Snopes in front of me like Holy writ, because that site lost it's credibility to conservatives long ago. I heard it was partly supported by George Soros-which would not surprise me, if true.

(09-21-2018 12:34 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  Split hairs if you want to, the point being Kap-the self anointed 'socialist' is making heap big bling while sweat shop workers are making insufficient-for-living-wages. He's a phony and nothing but a phony, but he impresses Libtards because they're all phonies as well. And don't wave Snopes in front of me like Holy writ, because that site lost it's credibility to conservatives long ago. I heard it was partly supported by George Soros-which would not surprise me, if true.

OK, Mr. Bitterman, just curious about what you're doing to make the world a better place? Everyone but you a phony? "Split hairs" is your response when faced with facts, and anyone who disagrees with your view is a "libtard"? Snopes won't cut it for you but Breitbart will? Other than screaming at kids to get off your lawn, what are you accomplishing?


I'm retired and volunteer driving people who no longer can drive to medical appointments and grocery trips. Also working as a volunteer to register voters. I guess that makes me a "libtard".

I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Ok, so there are no young "minorities" who think using the National Anthem is an inappropriate medium to protest inequality?! You speak for all minorities?

Please.

(09-21-2018 01:22 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Ok, so there are no young "minorities" who think using the National Anthem is an inappropriate medium to protest inequality?! You speak for all minorities?

Please.

I would argue there's no more "appropriate" and effective medium than the national anthem at a nationally televised sports event. Soldiers don't fight for a flag. They fight for what it represents. If Kaep feels this country isn't living up to its values (i.e. what the flag actually represents), then why not use the National Anthem on a national stage as long as the protest continues in a peaceful and respectful manner?

Seriously... you conservatives are such snowflakes.

(09-21-2018 01:22 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Ok, so there are no young "minorities" who think using the National Anthem is an inappropriate medium to protest inequality?! You speak for all minorities?

Please.

Not on this board.

(09-21-2018 02:40 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 01:22 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Ok, so there are no young "minorities" who think using the National Anthem is an inappropriate medium to protest inequality?! You speak for all minorities?

Please.

I would argue there's no more "appropriate" and effective medium than the national anthem at a nationally televised sports event. Soldiers don't fight for a flag. They fight for what it represents. If Kaep feels this country isn't living up to its values (i.e. what the flag actually represents), then why not use the National Anthem on a national stage as long as the protest continues in a peaceful and respectful manner?

Seriously... you conservatives are such snowflakes.

Resorting to name calling?! You are deeper than that, I hope.

When the medium (vehicle) overshadows and proves counter-productive to the message, than maybe it is time to try a different medium...that's not conservative or Liberal (i.e. "Progressive") it's PR 101.

People aren't hearing the message and relating to the cause because they are too caught-up (right or wrong) in the way the message is being delivered.

Do we want to bring people together address the problem, or just pizz them off, and push them away with little to no resolution to the problem?

Think, stand, and extend a hand!

(09-21-2018 02:40 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 01:22 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Ok, so there are no young "minorities" who think using the National Anthem is an inappropriate medium to protest inequality?! You speak for all minorities?

Please.

I would argue there's no more "appropriate" and effective medium than the national anthem at a nationally televised sports event. Soldiers don't fight for a flag. They fight for what it represents. If Kaep feels this country isn't living up to its values (i.e. what the flag actually represents), then why not use the National Anthem on a national stage as long as the protest continues in a peaceful and respectful manner?

Seriously... you conservatives are such snowflakes.

Symbolically I agree, protesting the flag = protesting the freedoms the flag is suppose to represent that some people aren’t afforded. But here’s the sticking point for me and I am curious how others feel, Kaep isn’t just protesting on his employers’ time, but more importantly he is using his employers resources to promote his personal message. Collin didn’t pay abc or ESPN for TV time. Advertising like that costs $100k and up for 30 seconds. As far as I know, I don’t believe any players have been allowed to promote personal causes or non NFL affiliated business’. How can Kaep? It’s not really a passive protest. That would be staying in the locker room. It’s really an active protest at this point.

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Something tells me though if this were criticism of how the KKK makes its own protest at a civil rights rally you would be less inclined to disagree with the how, when and why.

BTW, the Supreme Court has itself repeatedly concluded that time, place and manner limitations on otherwise free speech are acceptable, because "all speech" isn't protected. Free speech issues are actually fantastic intellectual legal discussions. I have been involved in a few during my legal career, and always enjoyed the debate.

I thought this was a thread about the Lions. You guys have to ruin everything...

(09-21-2018 07:22 PM)ColinApocalypse Wrote:  I thought this was a thread about the Lions. You guys have to ruin everything...

Seriously? The Lions are about the most depressing thing we could talk about. Just trying to cheer things up a bit.

(09-21-2018 07:22 PM)ColinApocalypse Wrote:  I thought this was a thread about the Lions. You guys have to ruin everything...

Ha!

But the Lions have always had a way of ruining things by themselves and with the generous assistance of the league's rigged officiating crews.

(09-21-2018 06:09 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(09-21-2018 11:25 AM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I just love when old white men sit back and tell minorities how/when/why/where to protest inequality.

Something tells me though if this were criticism of how the KKK makes its own protest at a civil rights rally you would be less inclined to disagree with the how, when and why.

What the hell?

I'm pretty sure I would be more inclined to disagree with the MESSAGE.