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USNews Rankings: UC Drops to 147
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: USNews Rankings: UC Drops to 147
(10-16-2018 09:43 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  I have no issue with Miami (Enjoyed visiting a few times). Never got the sense of it being a rich kid school though. As far as I know it’s the school known for Chicago/Illinois kids who don’t get into Ivy League schools, then don’t get into schools like University of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Damn, Michigan, and recently now even schools like Illinois and OSU. Being from Cincy and knowing plenty of people who went there, I have never heard any of them refer to Miami as Public Ivy lol.

The whole public ivy term is nonsense to begin with. Ivy League has always connotated wealth, social prestige and and the Northeast establishment as much as it has a high quality education. To apply it to any public school--even a truly academically elite one like Berkeley or Michigan--is ridiculous. The Ivy League mentality is completely at odds with what a public university--even an elite and highly selective one--should strive to be.

Also, the University of Chicago has a higher median SAT score than Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford. So, it's clearly not a back up to anyone in the Ivies. In fact, unlike Stanford which has always craved it, Chicago has always shunned attempting to clone itself after the Ivies socially and chosen to celebrate its Chicagoness, which is why it has never considered legacy or development (i.e. Daddy is a billionaire or Senator) admissions.

As for Miami, you're right in that it is something of a safety school for the Chicago suburbs, but it's not kids who are just missing out on an Ivy or the level just below them. I'd say there's probably five or six quality levels of colleges between the Ivies and Miami of Ohio. As you said, it's kids who aren't getting into Illinois or Wisconsin. In Ohio, it's kids who aren't getting into OSU. And it's a very self-selecting pool. It's upper middle class, white, conservative kids who want to go off and join a frat and major in business surrounded by mostly other upper middle class, white, conservative, greek business majors.

And their students have always skewed heavily upper middle class. Here's some economic numbers.

The median family income of a student from Miami (Ohio) is $119,000, and 54% come from the top 20 percent.

OSU 104K/40%
Cincinnati 90K/38%
 
10-17-2018 09:23 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #42
RE: USNews Rankings: UC Drops to 147
(10-17-2018 09:23 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(10-16-2018 09:43 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  I have no issue with Miami (Enjoyed visiting a few times). Never got the sense of it being a rich kid school though. As far as I know it’s the school known for Chicago/Illinois kids who don’t get into Ivy League schools, then don’t get into schools like University of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Damn, Michigan, and recently now even schools like Illinois and OSU. Being from Cincy and knowing plenty of people who went there, I have never heard any of them refer to Miami as Public Ivy lol.

The whole public ivy term is nonsense to begin with. Ivy League has always connotated wealth, social prestige and and the Northeast establishment as much as it has a high quality education. To apply it to any public school--even a truly academically elite one like Berkeley or Michigan--is ridiculous. The Ivy League mentality is completely at odds with what a public university--even an elite and highly selective one--should strive to be.

Also, the University of Chicago has a higher median SAT score than Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford. So, it's clearly not a back up to anyone in the Ivies. In fact, unlike Stanford which has always craved it, Chicago has always shunned attempting to clone itself after the Ivies socially and chosen to celebrate its Chicagoness, which is why it has never considered legacy or development (i.e. Daddy is a billionaire or Senator) admissions.

As for Miami, you're right in that it is something of a safety school for the Chicago suburbs, but it's not kids who are just missing out on an Ivy or the level just below them. I'd say there's probably five or six quality levels of colleges between the Ivies and Miami of Ohio. As you said, it's kids who aren't getting into Illinois or Wisconsin. In Ohio, it's kids who aren't getting into OSU. And it's a very self-selecting pool. It's upper middle class, white, conservative kids who want to go off and join a frat and major in business surrounded by mostly other upper middle class, white, conservative, greek business majors.

And their students have always skewed heavily upper middle class. Here's some economic numbers.

The median family income of a student from Miami (Ohio) is $119,000, and 54% come from the top 20 percent.

OSU 104K/40%
Cincinnati 90K/38%

Excellent analysis that quantifies much of what I've felt intuitively about Miami through the years. The public ivy thing--while it's nonsense, has really stuck and Miami alumni and students love to brandish that sword. Many of their adherents have an almost cult-like devotion to the belief that they obtained a vastly superior education.

I have no idea where they stand on student diversity today, but I was told by someone else in higher education decades ago that Miami maintained a mostly "all white" campus not through admissions discrimination but through a highly controlled allocation of student housing. If true, that was a stinging indictment of discriminatory practices. A picture postcard campus with some unsettling practices under that veneer perhaps?

Bottom line, we have to be pleased with UC"s overall progress on the academic side. Despite this ratings blip, I think UC will continue to rise in student quantity (a little) and student quality (more so). And in basketball and football, the schools are now worlds apart. All this said, I still enjoy every hearing that Victory Bell rung every season by our guys in Red and Black.
 
10-17-2018 10:09 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: USNews Rankings: UC Drops to 147
(10-17-2018 10:09 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(10-17-2018 09:23 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(10-16-2018 09:43 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  I have no issue with Miami (Enjoyed visiting a few times). Never got the sense of it being a rich kid school though. As far as I know it’s the school known for Chicago/Illinois kids who don’t get into Ivy League schools, then don’t get into schools like University of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Damn, Michigan, and recently now even schools like Illinois and OSU. Being from Cincy and knowing plenty of people who went there, I have never heard any of them refer to Miami as Public Ivy lol.

The whole public ivy term is nonsense to begin with. Ivy League has always connotated wealth, social prestige and and the Northeast establishment as much as it has a high quality education. To apply it to any public school--even a truly academically elite one like Berkeley or Michigan--is ridiculous. The Ivy League mentality is completely at odds with what a public university--even an elite and highly selective one--should strive to be.

Also, the University of Chicago has a higher median SAT score than Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford. So, it's clearly not a back up to anyone in the Ivies. In fact, unlike Stanford which has always craved it, Chicago has always shunned attempting to clone itself after the Ivies socially and chosen to celebrate its Chicagoness, which is why it has never considered legacy or development (i.e. Daddy is a billionaire or Senator) admissions.

As for Miami, you're right in that it is something of a safety school for the Chicago suburbs, but it's not kids who are just missing out on an Ivy or the level just below them. I'd say there's probably five or six quality levels of colleges between the Ivies and Miami of Ohio. As you said, it's kids who aren't getting into Illinois or Wisconsin. In Ohio, it's kids who aren't getting into OSU. And it's a very self-selecting pool. It's upper middle class, white, conservative kids who want to go off and join a frat and major in business surrounded by mostly other upper middle class, white, conservative, greek business majors.

And their students have always skewed heavily upper middle class. Here's some economic numbers.

The median family income of a student from Miami (Ohio) is $119,000, and 54% come from the top 20 percent.

OSU 104K/40%
Cincinnati 90K/38%

Excellent analysis that quantifies much of what I've felt intuitively about Miami through the years. The public ivy thing--while it's nonsense, has really stuck and Miami alumni and students love to brandish that sword. Many of their adherents have an almost cult-like devotion to the belief that they obtained a vastly superior education.

I have no idea where they stand on student diversity today, but I was told by someone else in higher education decades ago that Miami maintained a mostly "all white" campus not through admissions discrimination but through a highly controlled allocation of student housing. If true, that was a stinging indictment of discriminatory practices. A picture postcard campus with some unsettling practices under that veneer perhaps?

Bottom line, we have to be pleased with UC"s overall progress on the academic side. Despite this ratings blip, I think UC will continue to rise in student quantity (a little) and student quality (more so). And in basketball and football, the schools are now worlds apart. All this said, I still enjoy every hearing that Victory Bell rung every season by our guys in Red and Black.

I know that housing is how they back-doored their way into selective admissions in the 60s. They were never explicitely granted a right to be selective nor named "Ohio's Honors Campus" which is blatantly untrue propaganda that I've heard them brandish. Essentially, the Chair of the Board of Regents was an ex-Miami President who didn't force them to build new dorms to accommodate the baby boom application bulge, so they were allowed to turn kids away based on not having enough dorm space. Conversely, he forced OSU to build enough dorm space to accommodate everyone--those tower dorms by their stadium being prime examples.

As for diversity, I still think they make Princeton Review's annual list of "Campuses Where Diversity Is Not Welcome." And it's not just race. A white, Young Republican business major can fit in and find his niche and social groups just fine at a Wisconsin or OSU, but so can the Democratic Socialist Astronomy major. The latter is very, very out of place to the point of isolation should they make the mistake of matriculating to Miami.

Miami is very good at filling a very tiny niche, but they are not a comprehensive university. They're a non-entity in the sciences and engineering. They have no research or doctoral programs to speak of, but neither are they anything resembling a liberal arts college. They're still a 18K student, public university where 70% of the student body majors in business or education. Their campus culture is a turnoff to more kids than it attracts. And once the state didn't force OSU to compete with one arm tied behind its back their role as the selective public school in Ohio evaporated; the admissions gap between them and OSU is fundamental at this point, and no amount of UofI rejects outside of Chicago is going to close it. They are on a fundamentally lower level of admissions selectivity than Ohio State, and there's nothing they can do about it at this point, which just goes to show how fleeting and artificial their role as a "public ivy" was. I just don't see where they go in the future. UC, on the other hand, has multiple avenues of improvement to move forward in. The recent USNWR drop sucks, but if we have some good leadership that makes the right decisions, I'm confident it can be reversed. If the Chicago Board of Trade had bets on such things, I'd gladly buy futures in UC over Miami.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2018 10:37 AM by Bearcat 1985.)
10-17-2018 10:24 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: USNews Rankings: UC Drops to 147
(10-17-2018 10:24 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(10-17-2018 10:09 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(10-17-2018 09:23 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(10-16-2018 09:43 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  I have no issue with Miami (Enjoyed visiting a few times). Never got the sense of it being a rich kid school though. As far as I know it’s the school known for Chicago/Illinois kids who don’t get into Ivy League schools, then don’t get into schools like University of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Damn, Michigan, and recently now even schools like Illinois and OSU. Being from Cincy and knowing plenty of people who went there, I have never heard any of them refer to Miami as Public Ivy lol.

The whole public ivy term is nonsense to begin with. Ivy League has always connotated wealth, social prestige and and the Northeast establishment as much as it has a high quality education. To apply it to any public school--even a truly academically elite one like Berkeley or Michigan--is ridiculous. The Ivy League mentality is completely at odds with what a public university--even an elite and highly selective one--should strive to be.

Also, the University of Chicago has a higher median SAT score than Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford. So, it's clearly not a back up to anyone in the Ivies. In fact, unlike Stanford which has always craved it, Chicago has always shunned attempting to clone itself after the Ivies socially and chosen to celebrate its Chicagoness, which is why it has never considered legacy or development (i.e. Daddy is a billionaire or Senator) admissions.

As for Miami, you're right in that it is something of a safety school for the Chicago suburbs, but it's not kids who are just missing out on an Ivy or the level just below them. I'd say there's probably five or six quality levels of colleges between the Ivies and Miami of Ohio. As you said, it's kids who aren't getting into Illinois or Wisconsin. In Ohio, it's kids who aren't getting into OSU. And it's a very self-selecting pool. It's upper middle class, white, conservative kids who want to go off and join a frat and major in business surrounded by mostly other upper middle class, white, conservative, greek business majors.

And their students have always skewed heavily upper middle class. Here's some economic numbers.

The median family income of a student from Miami (Ohio) is $119,000, and 54% come from the top 20 percent.

OSU 104K/40%
Cincinnati 90K/38%

Excellent analysis that quantifies much of what I've felt intuitively about Miami through the years. The public ivy thing--while it's nonsense, has really stuck and Miami alumni and students love to brandish that sword. Many of their adherents have an almost cult-like devotion to the belief that they obtained a vastly superior education.

I have no idea where they stand on student diversity today, but I was told by someone else in higher education decades ago that Miami maintained a mostly "all white" campus not through admissions discrimination but through a highly controlled allocation of student housing. If true, that was a stinging indictment of discriminatory practices. A picture postcard campus with some unsettling practices under that veneer perhaps?

Bottom line, we have to be pleased with UC"s overall progress on the academic side. Despite this ratings blip, I think UC will continue to rise in student quantity (a little) and student quality (more so). And in basketball and football, the schools are now worlds apart. All this said, I still enjoy every hearing that Victory Bell rung every season by our guys in Red and Black.

I know that housing is how they back-doored their way into selective admissions in the 60s. They were never explicitely granted a right to be selective nor named "Ohio's Honors Campus" which is blatantly untrue propaganda that I've heard them brandish. Essentially, the Chair of the Board of Regents was an ex-Miami President who didn't force them to build new dorms to accommodate the baby boom application bulge, so they were allowed to turn kids away based on not having enough dorm space. Conversely, he forced OSU to build enough dorm space to accommodate everyone--those tower dorms by their stadium being prime examples.

As for diversity, I still think they make Princeton Review's annual list of "Campuses Where Diversity Is Not Welcome." And it's not just race. A white, Young Republican business major can fit in and find his niche and social groups just fine at a Wisconsin or OSU, but so can the Democratic Socialist Astronomy major. The latter is very, very out of place to the point of isolation should they make the mistake of matriculating to Miami.

Miami is very good at filling a very tiny niche, but they are not a comprehensive university. They're a non-entity in the sciences and engineering. They have no research or doctoral programs to speak of, but neither are they anything resembling a liberal arts college. They're still a 18K student, public university where 70% of the student body majors in business or education. Their campus culture is a turnoff to more kids than it attracts. And once the state didn't force OSU to compete with one arm tied behind its back their role as the selective public school in Ohio evaporated; the admissions gap between them and OSU is fundamental at this point, and no amount of UofI rejects outside of Chicago is going to close it. They are on a fundamentally lower level of admissions selectivity than Ohio State, and there's nothing they can do about it at this point, which just goes to show how fleeting and artificial their role as a "public ivy" was. I just don't see where they go in the future. UC, on the other hand, has multiple avenues of improvement to move forward in. The recent USNWR drop sucks, but if we have some good leadership that makes the right decisions, I'm confident it can be reversed. If the Chicago Board of Trade had bets on such things, I'd gladly buy futures in UC over Miami.

Funny, that also describes my current university (Illinois State). But ISU got there a very different way. It was originally one of the best teacher's colleges like Kent State, Northern Iowa, etc. But it's located in the town where State Farm and Country Insurance are both headquartered, so the town has the country's highest concentration of finance professionals. This has helped them to grow a very respectable business school (although not quite as good as Miami's). It has agriculture (due to a funny political quirk when Abraham Lincoln & friends finagled the school's charter from the state in the 1850s), but no engineering (although they're seriously looking into starting it) and few hard sciences.

And it attracts a similar student body (white kids from the Chicago suburbs who didn't get into Chicago/Northwestern/ Illinois Urbana-Champaign), although it is a bit more economically diverse than Miami.
 
10-17-2018 10:47 AM
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natibeast21 Offline
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RE: USNews Rankings: UC Drops to 147
(10-17-2018 09:23 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(10-16-2018 09:43 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  I have no issue with Miami (Enjoyed visiting a few times). Never got the sense of it being a rich kid school though. As far as I know it’s the school known for Chicago/Illinois kids who don’t get into Ivy League schools, then don’t get into schools like University of Chicago, Northwestern, Notre Damn, Michigan, and recently now even schools like Illinois and OSU. Being from Cincy and knowing plenty of people who went there, I have never heard any of them refer to Miami as Public Ivy lol.

The whole public ivy term is nonsense to begin with. Ivy League has always connotated wealth, social prestige and and the Northeast establishment as much as it has a high quality education. To apply it to any public school--even a truly academically elite one like Berkeley or Michigan--is ridiculous. The Ivy League mentality is completely at odds with what a public university--even an elite and highly selective one--should strive to be.

Also, the University of Chicago has a higher median SAT score than Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford. So, it's clearly not a back up to anyone in the Ivies. In fact, unlike Stanford which has always craved it, Chicago has always shunned attempting to clone itself after the Ivies socially and chosen to celebrate its Chicagoness, which is why it has never considered legacy or development (i.e. Daddy is a billionaire or Senator) admissions.

As for Miami, you're right in that it is something of a safety school for the Chicago suburbs, but it's not kids who are just missing out on an Ivy or the level just below them. I'd say there's probably five or six quality levels of colleges between the Ivies and Miami of Ohio. As you said, it's kids who aren't getting into Illinois or Wisconsin. In Ohio, it's kids who aren't getting into OSU. And it's a very self-selecting pool. It's upper middle class, white, conservative kids who want to go off and join a frat and major in business surrounded by mostly other upper middle class, white, conservative, greek business majors.

And their students have always skewed heavily upper middle class. Here's some economic numbers.

The median family income of a student from Miami (Ohio) is $119,000, and 54% come from the top 20 percent.

OSU 104K/40%
Cincinnati 90K/38%

Spot on! 04-cheers
 
10-17-2018 11:02 AM
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